What country has produced the best all around fighters during the past 60 years?

By "all around," I mean jusrt that; namley, stylists, warriors, technicians, sluggers, etc, etc.

Some that come to mind are:

Mexico :foruml10gc5:

The U.K.

The U.S.

Puerto Rico

Japan

South Korea

Russia (Eastern Europe)

What do you think? :confused: :confused:

Not in any order:

USA
Mexico
South Africa
Britain
Thailand
Argentina
Puerto Rico (terr.)

Usa

Mexico or USA

USA for sure.
Mexico
I think Brittain is moving up quickly
We shall see from Cuba as more and more of them go pro, but it seems like a pretty diverse field over there.

U.S

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

---

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

---

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

---

Agreed, on the plus side though, at least he suffered no major long-term damage from it, and makes a good living in movies now, too often guys who go through that end up with nothing left mentally & struggle to make opportunities for themselves elsewhere.

10-4, mate

I would say in order (personal choice)

USA
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Thailand

In terms of per capita world champions (and in descending order):

1. Puerto Rico
2. Panama
3. U.S.
4. Dominican Republic
5. Venezuela
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. England

I am tying to come up with a formula based on per capita champions; that is to say, what country produced the most champions based on its population. A lot of flaws in this, but my assumption is that PR might be the one--or maybe Jamaica.

HHhmm, seven champions from Jamaica divided by 2,780,132 (population).

But 40 from PR divided by 3,944,259, so adios to Jamaica!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

HHhmm, seven champions from Jamaica divided by 2,780,132 (population).

But 40 from PR divided by 3,944,259, so adios to Jamaica!

---

When I did some research on this back a few months ago, I didn't include countries that hadn't had at least 10 world champions. I guess that's why Jamaica hadn't made my list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TitoFan

In terms of per capita world champions (and in descending order):

1. Puerto Rico
2. Panama
3. U.S.
4. Dominican Republic
5. Venezuela
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. England

---

How about Argentina?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TitoFan

In terms of per capita world champions (and in descending order):

1. Puerto Rico
2. Panama
3. U.S.
4. Dominican Republic
5. Venezuela
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. England

---

How about Argentina?

---

Argentina was 9th, behind England.

U.S
Mexico
Puerto Rico
Any country ever have only one Champion??

Mexico has not only produce many Champions but a few great champions. I don't use the word great very offten. USA just behide them.

Australia needs some champions.... We had Kostya.. He was a bloody good all round fighter..

But we have very few after him..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TitoFan

In terms of per capita world champions (and in descending order):

1. Puerto Rico
2. Panama
3. U.S.
4. Dominican Republic
5. Venezuela
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. England

---

Found this video and in terms of world champions Mexico is #2 in terms of World Champions behind the US (I'm assuming as of the time the video was made and it looks pretty old.) I know you boast P.R. is #1 per capita (population) but a champion is a champion regardless, should have fought for more land for P.R.:p Just kidding.

The video is in spanish but it states that fact in the first minute or so. It's actually a good video although cut short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxhcz5JFS0M

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

I am tying to come up with a formula based on per capita champions; that is to say, what country produced the most champions based on its population. A lot of flaws in this, but my assumption is that PR might be the one--or maybe Jamaica.

---

It won't work. Too quantatative. Needs a qualatative element which is almost impossible to do. :banghead:

USA and Mexico

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

---

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

---

He obviously wouldn't have gone too far considering Herbie bashed him up good and proper.

Also.. It's a bit naughty to class those guys as Jamaican. Honeyghan is British of Jamacian descent. He has lived in South London, England since he was a little kid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

I am tying to come up with a formula based on per capita champions; that is to say, what country produced the most champions based on its population. A lot of flaws in this, but my assumption is that PR might be the one--or maybe Jamaica.

---

It won't work. Too quantatative. Needs a qualatative element which is almost impossible to do. :banghead:

---

I don't see why it should be so hard. We are just dealing with numbers here. Population, number of champions. As long as you don't try to formulize why one champ might be better than another.

What aspect is messing you up?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

USA (probably at #1)
Mexico
Puerto Rico
UK
Jamaica (if you count boxers such as Lloyd Honeyghan as well)

---

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

---

He obviously wouldn't have gone too far considering Herbie bashed him up good and proper.

Also.. It's a bit naughty to class those guys as Jamaican. Honeyghan is British of Jamacian descent. He has lived in South London, England since he was a little kid.

---

No, Honeyghan was born in Jamaica, and grew up in Britain. A Brit of Jamaican descent would be someone like Chris Eubank who was 2nd generation. You will also find that guys from the Caribbean who grew up here will class themselves as Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, particularly man like Honeyghan who grew up in South-East London in the 70's. My uncles & most the people where I live are the same, even some 2nd gen or 3rd gen guys my age don't see themselves as British now.

The US
Under the initial question,this would go back to 1948. If we look strictly at Olympic victories,the US has a clear lead,with Cuba and Russia close behind,and even then it gets skewed because many of the Russian victories are under the old USSR,which counts neighboring areas that are no longer considered Russia,and Cuban fighters rarely have pro careers, so the international games ARE their Pro career.
If you extrapolate those numbers to pro careers(and except for the former USSR and Cuba,that would translate normally) most Olympians end up with one title or another,so the US would still be in the lead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

---

He obviously wouldn't have gone too far considering Herbie bashed him up good and proper.

Also.. It's a bit naughty to class those guys as Jamaican. Honeyghan is British of Jamacian descent. He has lived in South London, England since he was a little kid.

---

No, Honeyghan was born in Jamaica, and grew up in Britain. A Brit of Jamaican descent would be someone like Chris Eubank who was 2nd generation. You will also find that guys from the Caribbean who grew up here will class themselves as Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, particularly man like Honeyghan who grew up in South-East London in the 70's. My uncles & most the people where I live are the same, even some 2nd gen or 3rd gen guys my age don't see themselves as British now.

---

Oh right.

I too have lots of friends that class themselves as British (Born here) but acknowledge their Caribbean roots.

That's different from someone born here but claims they're Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, right?

What does Honeyghan class himself as then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Wow, I forgot about Jamaica. On a per capita basis, it ranks very high, indeed.

A series of five monster upsets all by tough Jamaican fighters astounded me.

Trevor Berbick’s 1980 ambush KO of Big John Tate in Montreal set the stage for four more shockers. The welterweight champion Lloyd Honeyghan, nicknamed “Ragamuffin” due to his Jamaican roots, defeated heavily favored Donald Curry in 1986. In an equally stunning upset, welterweight Kirkland Laing (43-12-1) beat Roberto Duran in 1982.
And there was the notable amateur fighter, Michael Bentt, former WBO
Heavyweight Champ, who knocked out heavily favored Tommy Morrison in
1993 in an incredible first-round upset. The thing about Bentt was that he was very good amateur fighter, and Morrison’s camp had done a terrible
job researching his amateur record. Had he not suffered a career-ending and life-threatening injury in his fight with Herbie Hide, there is no telling how far he could have gone.


And who could forget the great Simon “Mantequilla” Brown, WBC and IBF
Welterweight Titleholder who KO’d Terry Norris in 1993 for the WBC Light
Middleweight Title in Ring magazine’s Upset of the Year? What made these fights memorable? They were all major upsets, and they were all pulled off by Jamaican fighters.

---

He obviously wouldn't have gone too far considering Herbie bashed him up good and proper.

Also.. It's a bit naughty to class those guys as Jamaican. Honeyghan is British of Jamacian descent. He has lived in South London, England since he was a little kid.

---

No, Honeyghan was born in Jamaica, and grew up in Britain. A Brit of Jamaican descent would be someone like Chris Eubank who was 2nd generation. You will also find that guys from the Caribbean who grew up here will class themselves as Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, particularly man like Honeyghan who grew up in South-East London in the 70's. My uncles & most the people where I live are the same, even some 2nd gen or 3rd gen guys my age don't see themselves as British now.

---

Ha, what about Lennox? When he is in Canada, he is Canadian. When he is in the UK, he is a Brit--and when he is in Jamaica, well, who knows what he claims to be. I bet his mother says he is a Jamaican. :banghead:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by holmcall

I am tying to come up with a formula based on per capita champions; that is to say, what country produced the most champions based on its population. A lot of flaws in this, but my assumption is that PR might be the one--or maybe Jamaica.

---

It won't work. Too quantatative. Needs a qualatative element which is almost impossible to do. :banghead:

---

I don't see why it should be so hard. We are just dealing with numbers here. Population, number of champions. As long as you don't try to formulize why one champ might be better than another.

What aspect is messing you up?

---

A small country could have an inordinate amount of mediocre champs, while a larger one could have fewer (but clearly better) ones. That is too quantatative for me. If you want a fromula that says what counrty pruduced the moost champions per capita. that says nothing about how good they were. It's just numbers which, of course, is one measure. But to get what country produced the BEST, you need something else in my humble opinion. :lolololol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

He obviously wouldn't have gone too far considering Herbie bashed him up good and proper.

Also.. It's a bit naughty to class those guys as Jamaican. Honeyghan is British of Jamacian descent. He has lived in South London, England since he was a little kid.

---

No, Honeyghan was born in Jamaica, and grew up in Britain. A Brit of Jamaican descent would be someone like Chris Eubank who was 2nd generation. You will also find that guys from the Caribbean who grew up here will class themselves as Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, particularly man like Honeyghan who grew up in South-East London in the 70's. My uncles & most the people where I live are the same, even some 2nd gen or 3rd gen guys my age don't see themselves as British now.

---

Oh right.

I too have lots of friends that class themselves as British (Born here) but acknowledge their Caribbean roots.

That's different from someone born here but claims they're Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, right?

What does Honeyghan class himself as then?

---

I saw an interview with Spencer Fearon & Honeyghan seemed to class himself as Jamaican rather than British, as he seemed to talk about himself in the context of Jamaican fighters such as Mike McCallum rather than any British guys.

Yeah that is different, because whilst a lot of people will go 'my family come from...", I know some of bredrins will just go 'nah I ain't British, I'm from Jamaica' or something like that. I think with a lot of older guys (like the generations above mine, I'm 22) they experienced a more open racism than we have, as the NF & BNP used to be a lot more prominent around here, so they feel less of an attachment to being British. At the end of the day it's all down to personal choice & your interactions with people around you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OnixAA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TitoFan

In terms of per capita world champions (and in descending order):

1. Puerto Rico
2. Panama
3. U.S.
4. Dominican Republic
5. Venezuela
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. England

---

Found this video and in terms of world champions Mexico is #2 in terms of World Champions behind the US (I'm assuming as of the time the video was made and it looks pretty old.) I know you boast P.R. is #1 per capita (population) but a champion is a champion regardless, should have fought for more land for P.R.:p Just kidding.

The video is in spanish but it states that fact in the first minute or so. It's actually a good video although cut short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxhcz5JFS0M

---

Technical slipup there, Onix my friend. ;D

Per capita is a comparison based on population, not square miles of land. And while it's true that both the U.S. [425] and Mexico [108] have had more world champions than Puerto Rico [40], when seen on a per capita basis both fall far short of Puerto Rico. Hence, my numbers.

[Boxrec - July 2008]


:teacher:

How about a little love for Japan ;D
Also while maybe not the most 'skilled' but Korea/South produced some of the toughest & bravest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

How about a little love for Japan ;D
Also while maybe not the most 'skilled' but Korea/South produced some of the toughest & bravest

---

Japan - 18th per capita world champions
Korea - 12th

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

How about a little love for Japan ;D
Also while maybe not the most 'skilled' but Korea/South produced some of the toughest & bravest

---

I'd go with Japan as having the best stylists and Korea for sheer bravery. :foruml10gc5:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

No, Honeyghan was born in Jamaica, and grew up in Britain. A Brit of Jamaican descent would be someone like Chris Eubank who was 2nd generation. You will also find that guys from the Caribbean who grew up here will class themselves as Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, particularly man like Honeyghan who grew up in South-East London in the 70's. My uncles & most the people where I live are the same, even some 2nd gen or 3rd gen guys my age don't see themselves as British now.

---

Oh right.

I too have lots of friends that class themselves as British (Born here) but acknowledge their Caribbean roots.

That's different from someone born here but claims they're Jamaican/Trinidadian/St. Lucian rather than British, right?

What does Honeyghan class himself as then?

---

I saw an interview with Spencer Fearon & Honeyghan seemed to class himself as Jamaican rather than British, as he seemed to talk about himself in the context of Jamaican fighters such as Mike McCallum rather than any British guys.

Yeah that is different, because whilst a lot of people will go 'my family come from...", I know some of bredrins will just go 'nah I ain't British, I'm from Jamaica' or something like that. I think with a lot of older guys (like the generations above mine, I'm 22) they experienced a more open racism than we have, as the NF & BNP used to be a lot more prominent around here, so they feel less of an attachment to being British. At the end of the day it's all down to personal choice & your interactions with people around you.

---

Well then, he would say "Yha Mon!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TitoFan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OnixAA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TitoFan

In terms of per capita world champions (and in descending order):

1. Puerto Rico
2. Panama
3. U.S.
4. Dominican Republic
5. Venezuela
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. England

---

Found this video and in terms of world champions Mexico is #2 in terms of World Champions behind the US (I'm assuming as of the time the video was made and it looks pretty old.) I know you boast P.R. is #1 per capita (population) but a champion is a champion regardless, should have fought for more land for P.R.:p Just kidding.

The video is in spanish but it states that fact in the first minute or so. It's actually a good video although cut short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxhcz5JFS0M

---

Technical slipup there, Onix my friend. ;D

Per capita is a comparison based on population, not square miles of land. And while it's true that both the U.S. [425] and Mexico [108] have had more world champions than Puerto Rico [40], when seen on a per capita basis both fall far short of Puerto Rico. Hence, my numbers.

[Boxrec - July 2008]


:teacher:

---

Well I did write in their population, but if you would have fought for more land, you would have have more people. Thats the way I meant it.

Right now (2009), I am leaning toward PR even though I said the past 60 years. Damm, that Island has produced some truly great champions. Gomez, Benitez, Torres, Escobar, Trinidad, Cotto, JML, Camacho, Vazquez, Ortiz, Escalara, Molina, Rosario, Ramos, Laporte,--even Joe "Unfair but Firm" Cortez who had a record of eighteen wins and one defeat as a professional boxer.

There have been many others like Jose Monon Gonzalez who never made champion but were truly top notch bangers.

Then again, you go back 60 years and some of the Cubans were truly great fighters. Guys like the "Keed," Isaac Logart, the Bombon Kid, Florentino Fernandez who was a monster bomber, Nino Valdez, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Kid Paret, Jose Napoles, Kid Chocolate (136-10-6). But I still don't think they compare to PR.

Okay lets not complicate the topic with per capita non sense and other absord stuff. the answer is simply the U.S.A and MEXICO / MEXICO and U.S.A. which means both of these countries traditionally have had the best boxing schools. both of these two countries have produced the most champions have developed the best boxing techniques have had the best and most knowledgeble trainers. most big pay-perview events are controlled by American and Mexican fighters. sure you get other great fighters from different nationalities in these pay-per view events but the but the numbers don't lie. these two great boxing/fighting countries dominate the numbers in champions/quality of champions/pay-perview sells you name it they own it past and present future we will see. dont get me wrong i enjoy fighters from all over the world but the numbers are real you cant deny it.:)

1. USA
2. Mexico
3. Britain