Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Ok instead of going round in circles in this catchweight discussion lets use humanity's greatest gifts of reasoning powers and logic in solving this.
I will put forth what I believe to be simple logical truths and if you disagree you can then show exactly what logical statement you are disagreeing with and why and we can hammer out each indepenent logical point until a fair solution is reached.
Ok, if anyone wants to follow here are my logical positions laid out one by one, to challenge if you will.
Logical Position 1 Weight classes and world championship belts for these classes exist (in an ideal world) so that fighters can fight for glory against fighters of their own size or thereabouts. This is due to the simple logic that if there were no weight classes those fighters of heavyweight size would dominate, a 230 lb man is likely to be far to big for a 120 lb, 160 lb man etc.
Size clearly matters, hence weight divisions exist.
Logical Position 2 Size isn't the only factor however. Talent, speed, other physical assets, technical boxing ability, heart, chin etc also all factor in greatly.
Logical Position 3 Therefore a fighter can move up a weight class and defeat a fighter naturally heavier than him if he has advantages in other areas that compensate for his size deficit.
Logial Position 4 We can therefore create a simple logical equation as follows.
If a 135 lb fighter takes on a 147 lb fighter, providing all other factors are equal and the only deciding factor is bodyweight, the bigger man will win. This is because he has advantage in size.
However ifa smaller man fights a man of bigger size but has advantages in other factors, speed, skill etc then he can nullify the weight advantage and win.
Logical Position 5 Roy Jones was able to move up to heavyweight and beat John Ruiz because although he was giving up bodyweight, Ruiz was giving up more, in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc. The equation overal worked out in Roy Jones favour because he was better in all other areas other than size.
Logical Postion 6 If John Ruiz was the equal to Roy Jones in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc then with his extra weight advantage he would have won, and most likely dominated the fight
Logical Position 7 Therefore Ruiz was chosen as an opponent for Roy Jones on that basis. He was inferior to Jones in every respect other than size. Jones would not have attempted to fight Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko brother because the weight vs talent equation would no longer be in his favour.
Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.
Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters.
Logical position 10 Going back to our original equation if a smaller man fights a bigger man the smaller man will lose unless he has talents great enough to compensate for the size advantage. It is clear that guys like Cotto and Mosely are as talanted as Manny Pacquaio, other elite fighters and as they are also bigger they will have a very large advantage.
Logical Position 11 However If the bigger fighter gives up a small part of his size advantage then size is no longer the deciding factor. As the bigger fighter is probably too big to drop down a whole weight class, an alternative would be to fight at an agreed weight somewhere between the two fighters weight classes. It is up to the two fighters and their teams to agree to a weight limit that they feel they can comfortably make and still fight to their ability. If they cannot agree to such a weight that the fight should not occur.
Logical Position 12 When two fighters have conquered weight classes and won many world title belts they move into the category of p4p stars, elite fighters. At that stage they want to test themselves against other elite fighters, from henceforth it is the opponent not the belt or weight class that is important. P4P superstars want to beat other p4p superstars more than they want to win 'belts' or fight in a particular weight class
Logical position 13 Therefore a fight between Manny and Cotto transcends any world title belt or weight class. For these fighters it is not about a belt or division now, it is the opponent who matters, they want the accolade of beating that particular elite opponent over the accolade of winning a belt in a set weight class
Logical Conclusion So in this instance a catchweight is a viable solution to the problem of getting two elite fighters from different weight classes into the ring. As we are now interested in the quality of the fight between these two great individuals more than just to see a fight for a 'belt' we can in this case discard the need to fight in a set weight class for a particular world title belt because this fight is bigger than that. We have world titles and weight divisions to see who is the best in those divisions, but once fighters achieve those accolades they are after a higher goal, that of fighting other p4p stars, not winning more belts.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
Ok instead of going round in circles in this catchweight discussion lets use humanity's greatest gifts of reasoning powers and logic in solving this.
I will put forth what I believe to be simple logical truths and if you disagree you can then show exactly what logical statement you are disagreeing with and why and we can hammer out each indepenent logical point until a fair solution is reached.
Ok, if anyone wants to follow here are my logical positions laid out one by one, to challenge if you will.
Logical Position 1 Weight classes and world championship belts for these classes exist (in an ideal world) so that fighters can fight for glory against fighters of their own size or thereabouts. This is due to the simple logic that if there were no weight classes those fighters of heavyweight size would dominate, a 230 lb man is likely to be far to big for a 120 lb, 160 lb man etc.
Size clearly matters, hence weight divisions exist.
Logical Position 2 Size isn't the only factor however. Talent, speed, other physical assets, technical boxing ability, heart, chin etc also all factor in greatly.
Logical Position 3 Therefore a fighter can move up a weight class and defeat a fighter naturally heavier than him if he has advantages in other areas that compensate for his size deficit.
Logial Position 4 We can therefore create a simple logical equation as follows.
If a 135 lb fighter takes on a 147 lb fighter, providing all other factors are equal and the only deciding factor is bodyweight, the bigger man will win. This is because he has advantage in size.
However ifa smaller man fights a man of bigger size but has advantages in other factors, speed, skill etc then he can nullify the weight advantage and win.
Logical Position 5 Roy Jones was able to move up to heavyweight and beat John Ruiz because although he was giving up bodyweight, Ruiz was giving up more, in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc. The equation overal worked out in Roy Jones favour because he was better in all other areas other than size.
Logical Postion 6 If John Ruiz was the equal to Roy Jones in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc then with his extra weight advantage he would have won, and most likely dominated the fight
Logical Position 7 Therefore Ruiz was chosen as an opponent for Roy Jones on that basis. He was inferior to Jones in every respect other than size. Jones would not have attempted to fight Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko brother because the weight vs talent equation would no longer be in his favour.
Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.
Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters.
Logical position 10 Going back to our original equation if a smaller man fights a bigger man the smaller man will lose unless he has talents great enough to compensate for the size advantage. It is clear that guys like Cotto and Mosely are as talanted as Manny Pacquaio, other elite fighters and as they are also bigger they will have a very large advantage.
Logical Position 11 However If the bigger fighter gives up a small part of his size advantage then size is no longer the deciding factor. As the bigger fighter is probably too big to drop down a whole weight class, an alternative would be to fight at an agreed weight somewhere between the two fighters weight classes. It is up to the two fighters and their teams to agree to a weight limit that they feel they can comfortably make and still fight to their ability. If they cannot agree to such a weight that the fight should not occur.
Logical Position 12 When two fighters have conquered weight classes and won many world title belts they move into the category of p4p stars, elite fighters. At that stage they want to test themselves against other elite fighters, from henceforth it is the opponent not the belt or weight class that is important. P4P superstars want to beat other p4p superstars more than they want to win 'belts' or fight in a particular weight class
Logical position 13 Therefore a fight between Manny and Cotto transcends any world title belt or weight class. For these fighters it is not about a belt or division now, it is the opponent who matters, they want the accolade of beating that particular elite opponent over the accolade of winning a belt in a set weight class
Logical Conclusion So in this instance a catchweight is a viable solution to the problem of getting two elite fighters from different weight classes into the ring. As we are now interested in the quality of the fight between these two great individuals more than just to see a fight for a 'belt' we can in this case discard the need to fight in a set weight class for a particular world title belt because this fight is bigger than that. We have world titles and weight divisions to see who is the best in those divisions, but once fighters achieve those accolades they are after a higher goal, that of fighting other p4p stars, not winning more belts.
logical position# 14; it just has too many logical positions it makes logical confusions?
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
Ok instead of going round in circles in this catchweight discussion lets use humanity's greatest gifts of reasoning powers and logic in solving this.
I will put forth what I believe to be simple logical truths and if you disagree you can then show exactly what logical statement you are disagreeing with and why and we can hammer out each indepenent logical point until a fair solution is reached.
Ok, if anyone wants to follow here are my logical positions laid out one by one, to challenge if you will.
Logical Position 1 Weight classes and world championship belts for these classes exist (in an ideal world) so that fighters can fight for glory against fighters of their own size or thereabouts. This is due to the simple logic that if there were no weight classes those fighters of heavyweight size would dominate, a 230 lb man is likely to be far to big for a 120 lb, 160 lb man etc.
Size clearly matters, hence weight divisions exist.
Logical Position 2 Size isn't the only factor however. Talent, speed, other physical assets, technical boxing ability, heart, chin etc also all factor in greatly.
Logical Position 3 Therefore a fighter can move up a weight class and defeat a fighter naturally heavier than him if he has advantages in other areas that compensate for his size deficit.
Logial Position 4 We can therefore create a simple logical equation as follows.
If a 135 lb fighter takes on a 147 lb fighter, providing all other factors are equal and the only deciding factor is bodyweight, the bigger man will win. This is because he has advantage in size.
However ifa smaller man fights a man of bigger size but has advantages in other factors, speed, skill etc then he can nullify the weight advantage and win.
Logical Position 5 Roy Jones was able to move up to heavyweight and beat John Ruiz because although he was giving up bodyweight, Ruiz was giving up more, in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc. The equation overal worked out in Roy Jones favour because he was better in all other areas other than size.
Logical Postion 6 If John Ruiz was the equal to Roy Jones in terms of skill, talent, speed, technical ability, ring craft etc then with his extra weight advantage he would have won, and most likely dominated the fight
Logical Position 7 Therefore Ruiz was chosen as an opponent for Roy Jones on that basis. He was inferior to Jones in every respect other than size. Jones would not have attempted to fight Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko brother because the weight vs talent equation would no longer be in his favour.
Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.
Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters.
Logical position 10 Going back to our original equation if a smaller man fights a bigger man the smaller man will lose unless he has talents great enough to compensate for the size advantage. It is clear that guys like Cotto and Mosely are as talanted as Manny Pacquaio, other elite fighters and as they are also bigger they will have a very large advantage.
Logical Position 11 However If the bigger fighter gives up a small part of his size advantage then size is no longer the deciding factor. As the bigger fighter is probably too big to drop down a whole weight class, an alternative would be to fight at an agreed weight somewhere between the two fighters weight classes. It is up to the two fighters and their teams to agree to a weight limit that they feel they can comfortably make and still fight to their ability. If they cannot agree to such a weight that the fight should not occur.
Logical Position 12 When two fighters have conquered weight classes and won many world title belts they move into the category of p4p stars, elite fighters. At that stage they want to test themselves against other elite fighters, from henceforth it is the opponent not the belt or weight class that is important. P4P superstars want to beat other p4p superstars more than they want to win 'belts' or fight in a particular weight class
Logical position 13 Therefore a fight between Manny and Cotto transcends any world title belt or weight class. For these fighters it is not about a belt or division now, it is the opponent who matters, they want the accolade of beating that particular elite opponent over the accolade of winning a belt in a set weight class
Logical Conclusion So in this instance a catchweight is a viable solution to the problem of getting two elite fighters from different weight classes into the ring. As we are now interested in the quality of the fight between these two great individuals more than just to see a fight for a 'belt' we can in this case discard the need to fight in a set weight class for a particular world title belt because this fight is bigger than that. We have world titles and weight divisions to see who is the best in those divisions, but once fighters achieve those accolades they are after a higher goal, that of fighting other p4p stars, not winning more belts.
Here's a logical conclusion, the Pacman fanboys and the Hatton fanboys are the worst boxing fans, except once in a while you have one that is logical but very rare.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.
Aren't you supposed to be banned?
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.
Aren't you supposed to be banned?
I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!! ;D
I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop' :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33:
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.
Aren't you supposed to be banned?
I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!! ;D
I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop' :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33:
I've never seen the film. If you want I can ban you (I think), but I'm not exactly experienced in such things and there might be unforeseen consequences. I don't really think you want to be banned in the midst of such a fine argument though, do you?
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I'd like to give my honest opinion, but fuck that's a long post.
Aren't you supposed to be banned?
I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!! ;D
I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop' :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33:
I've never seen the film. If you want I can ban you (I think), but I'm not exactly experienced in such things and there might be unforeseen consequences. I don't really think you want to be banned in the midst of such a fine argument though, do you?
Do it mate. This account can be deleted anyway, Saddo banned my Bilbo account until a week Monday.
Enjoy the power of flushing an account and I can then go and eat and attend to my bleeding fingertips
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
I've asked Saddo, can you remind him PLEASE!! ;D
I feel like that girl at the beginning of Knowing 'Make me stop, please make me stop, please make me stop' :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33: :work33:
I've never seen the film. If you want I can ban you (I think), but I'm not exactly experienced in such things and there might be unforeseen consequences. I don't really think you want to be banned in the midst of such a fine argument though, do you?
Do it mate. This account can be deleted anyway, Saddo banned my Bilbo account until a week Monday.
Enjoy the power of flushing an account and I can then go and eat and attend to my bleeding fingertips
I don't know if I can. When I try to view your public profile I get the message:
"This user has not registered and therefore does not have a profile to view."
Looks like you're fucked. Also, I don't want to accidentally IP ban you or anything like that, but I assume only Saddo has those powers.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
dont ban bilo's mom . btw.. anyone wanna tap larry merchant??
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I've never seen the film. If you want I can ban you (I think), but I'm not exactly experienced in such things and there might be unforeseen consequences. I don't really think you want to be banned in the midst of such a fine argument though, do you?
Do it mate. This account can be deleted anyway, Saddo banned my Bilbo account until a week Monday.
Enjoy the power of flushing an account and I can then go and eat and attend to my bleeding fingertips
I don't know if I can. When I try to view your public profile I get the message:
"This user has not registered and therefore does not have a profile to view."
Looks like you're fucked. Also, I don't want to accidentally IP ban you or anything like that, but I assume only Saddo has those powers.
I doubt you could do anything permanently damaging. I don't have a fixed ip address anyway so you get block me once I've cleared all my caches.
I'll pm Saddo and ask him to delete this account permantly, I don't mind killing off my old mom, she's a nagging wench anyhow.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
THe point people are making is that Pacquiao is ranked higher p4p than COtto or MOsley, thus he should still be at an advantage or competitive with them at their own weightclass. If he wants the glory in beating them, then it should be done at their weight. If he fights them at a catch weight it is still impressive, but the arguement that they also had size on their side isn't as profound as if he faced them at their natural weight. I think Pacquiao shoudl still get a ton of credit if he beat Cotto at 146 or Mosley at 144-145, but not even close to what he would if he beat them at 147 even if they aren't better at 147 than they would be at 144-146.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
THe point people are making is that Pacquiao is ranked higher p4p than COtto or MOsley, thus he should still be at an advantage or competitive with them at their own weightclass. If he wants the glory in beating them, then it should be done at their weight. If he fights them at a catch weight it is still impressive, but the arguement that they also had size on their side isn't as profound as if he faced them at their natural weight. I think Pacquiao shoudl still get a ton of credit if he beat Cotto at 146 or Mosley at 144-145, but not even close to what he would if he beat them at 147 even if they aren't better at 147 than they would be at 144-146.
I agree! :appl::appl:
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
THe point people are making is that Pacquiao is ranked higher p4p than COtto or MOsley, thus he should still be at an advantage or competitive with them at their own weightclass. If he wants the glory in beating them, then it should be done at their weight. If he fights them at a catch weight it is still impressive, but the arguement that they also had size on their side isn't as profound as if he faced them at their natural weight. I think Pacquiao shoudl still get a ton of credit if he beat Cotto at 146 or Mosley at 144-145, but not even close to what he would if he beat them at 147 even if they aren't better at 147 than they would be at 144-146.
So why not fight Kelly Pavlik then? Surely Manny is better than him p4p too?
Manny is a little guy, two years ago nobody on here, not a single one of you would have thought he could beat Ricky Hatton at 140 lbs, he was just a superfeatherweight.
If Juan Manuel Marquez and Manny were to rematch now would you insist that this fight took place at 147 lbs and nothing less because otherwise a Marquez win would be meaningless, Manny being too drained after coming down from welterweight?
How do you explain the strange phenomenan that is Shane Mosely. He moved DOWN an entire weight class from 154 lbs in his thirties and now fights at 147 lbs?
How is this even possible, does not human biology insist that he be too weakened to fight competitively?
Why was there not an outcry when Miguel Cotto beat Sugar Shane by the narrowest of margins after he had dragged him down an entire division.
Surely Cotto should be derided for not being able to finish off and destroy an old past his prime fighter in his thirties who had had almost 50 fights and was moving down in weight?
You guys seem to not understand that weight catogories only exist on paper they don't have any real objective reality.
No person in the world has a set weight. Do you know for example that you are a 153 lb person, does that weight define you, is that all you can be?
Every fighter and athlete, I'm sure does have an optimum bodyweight at which they best perform but I highly doubt it's an absolute definite fixed figure to one single decimal point.
Cotto has fought the majority of career at 140 lbs. When he had conquered that class he moved up to 147 lbs. Why 147, because that is the next weight class boxing has.
I'm sure had there been another weight class at 144 and the great fighters were there he'd be fighting at 144 now.
He's not a big welterweight, not at all. He's only 5 ft 7 and rarely weighs in at the 147 limit anyway, usually being 146.5 and in his last outing only 146.
All this hullaballu about a couple of pounds as if its going to make the difference between Cotto being 100 percent and Cotto being an empty shell is absurd.
If the fight is at 147 Manny is giving up 13 lbs in natural fighting weight, with a 3 lb catchweight he's still giving up 10.
If he wins, the fact it was at 145 in no way detracts from the victory any more than you can take away from Cotto's win over Mosely, Calzaghe's win over Hopkins or Hopkins win over Tarver on the basis of weight.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Not that I disagree with all of this, but there's a few inaccuracies. Cotto has never weighed in less than 146 at welter & usually not at that weight but at 147. He has trouble making the weight because of his out of training lifestyle, so pushing him those extra 2 or 3 lbs could be decisive. I have no problems them doing this as long as its NOT for the welterweight title. That should only be on the line if the maximum weight limit for both fighters is 147.
Otherwise I agree with it & personally I think Pacquiao can beat Cotto at 147, so he should do it there.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Bilbo's Mom http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...er_offline.gif
Banned
a haha. Bilbo cracks me up so much. Bet will still be reading this thread as a visitor...
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AdamGB
Hahaha
Bravo sir.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
What about this logic. If Roach and Pac thought they could beat Cotto at 147 then the fight would be at 147. Seems like the fans, who cut nary a pound, are more confident that the catchweight has no bearings. But the real trainers and fighters know differently.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
Logical Position 8 If Manny is to fight the guys at 147 lbs he will have moved up as many divisions as Roy Jones did, from flyweight to welter is equal to middleweight to heavyweight in terms of number of weight classes.
Logical Position 9 Unlike Roy Jones, Manny is intending to fight the BEST in those weight classes. He is not fighting guys who are inferior to him in everything apart from size, he is wanting to fight guys of equal talent to himself, other elite fighters
Many things wrong with this comparitive reach. Pac has not fought a welterweight as of yet let alone intending to fight the best at 'those weight classes.' He fought DLH, who is a junior middle not a welterweight, at 147 and he intends to fight Cotto at 145, that is a catchweight. RJJ never fought Ruiz at a catchweight. And just counting weight classes doesn't tell the whole story. Not to mention that you got it wrong, flyweight to welterweight is actually more weight classes than middleweight to heavyweight. It is almost twice the number of weight classess but it is about half the poundage. Ruiz is not near the level Cotto is but the size difference between Pac and Cotto is not near the size difference between Jones and Ruiz, especially considering the catchweight. At some point Pac and Cotto will weigh about the same. At no point did Ruiz and Jones even come close to being even in the same ballpark of weight. Roy fighting the best at heavyweight isn't the same as asking Pac to fight the same at welterweight. Heavyweight has no limit in size as welterweight does. If Roy and Pac were to equal feats in moving up and Roy would've been asked to have fought the very best at heavyweight, who would've been Lewis, then to equal size difference Pac would've been asked to have fought Bernard Hopkins at middleweight. In both cases the size differences are inhumane to sanction. A closer comparison for Jones and Pac to come close to equal feats Jones would have fought a guy like Holyfield at heavyweight and Pac a guy like Mosley at junior middleweight.
Re: Can anyone argue with my logic here?
I stopped reading after #4
