For me, Salavador Sanchez had speed, power, ring smarts, great sideways and in-and-out movement, stamina and an iron chiin. He comes very close IMO.
Who do you think fits the bill?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFCvazd6AVU
:confused::confused:
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For me, Salavador Sanchez had speed, power, ring smarts, great sideways and in-and-out movement, stamina and an iron chiin. He comes very close IMO.
Who do you think fits the bill?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFCvazd6AVU
:confused::confused:
"El Finito" Ricardo Lopez.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Good one. Him, too!
Sugar Ray Robinson & Sugar Ray Leonard both appeared to have it all. I think people underestimate Ali's power, so I'd have him there as well.
Both the two already mentioned also fit the bill as well. Hagler didn't really have any weaknesses, but I wouldn't see he was on the same level as the others. Mayweather at the lower weights seemed to have it all. If the little footage I've seen is something to go by, then add Charley Burley to that list.
Don't agree with Ali. His power was weak compare to other top HeavyweightsQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
I don't think he had great one punch power, but he was able to break a lot of guys down over a fight, so I'd give him it on that basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseDon't agree with Ali. His power was weak compare to other top HeavyweightsQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Duran seemed to have it all in his prime.Also Ray Leonard at welter weight.
Sonny Liston at his best ticked all the boxes as well.:o
A perfect fighter needs to have one punch power. So that would eliminate AliQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI don't think he had great one punch power, but he was able to break a lot of guys down over a fight, so I'd give him it on that basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseDon't agree with Ali. His power was weak compare to other top HeavyweightsQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Duran at lightweight.
Ricardo Lopez
Salvador Sanchez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Larry Holmes
Alexis Arguello
Are some that come to mind.
I don't think Salvador Sanchez had great one punch power, although it was better than Ali's, he tended to break guys down systematically in most of his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseA perfect fighter needs to have one punch power. So that would eliminate AliQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI don't think he had great one punch power, but he was able to break a lot of guys down over a fight, so I'd give him it on that basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Michael Spinks was a pretty complete fighter at LHW. I disagree with Duran though. For me a perfect fighter never does what he does in his 2nd fight with Leonard.
I agree! Jones is another choice but I always liked Duran ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
You might aswell say an almost perfect fighter like Muhammad Ali, wouldn't have gotten close decision win off fighters like Doug Jones. But the fact is even fighters that look unbeatable on one night, can look very beatable in another fight, even the greatest have off nights or a style that cancel's there one out. And personally i don't think Muhammad Ali is anywhere near close, to the perfect fighter by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI don't think Salvador Sanchez had great one punch power, although it was better than Ali's, he tended to break guys down systematically in most of his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseA perfect fighter needs to have one punch power. So that would eliminate AliQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Michael Spinks was a pretty complete fighter at LHW. I disagree with Duran though. For me a perfect fighter never does what he does in his 2nd fight with Leonard.
I agree on the first 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.
Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.
Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.
Arguello I agree on.
Im actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident made him cautious, like when he dismantled Thomas Tate for example. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI agree on the first 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.
Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.
Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.
Arguello I agree on.
Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBIm actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI agree on the first 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.
Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.
Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.
Arguello I agree on.
But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBIm actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.
Yes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBut if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.
To be honest though i think RJJ looked more unbeatable, than Muhammad Ali ever did. I mean to win even 4 rounds against a prime RJJ. Was considered an achievement, i mean he only ever struggled against Eric Harding, Montel Griffin 1, in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBut if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.
Where as Muhammad Ali had a bunch of struggles, he had many controversial decisions and struggles against mediocre fighters. I don't see why you call Muhammad Ali an almost perfect fighter but not RJJ, there pretty similar with how they relied alot on there athletic ability, except RJJ hit harder.
Joe Louis and Ray Robinson old school
Bernard Hopkins is pretty damn close to perfection he just lacks power.
A prime Roy Jones was a thing of beauty.
floyd mayweather is the perfect fighter
No I can accept someone not seeing Ali as the perfect fighter, but with RJJ one thing he didn't have (I suspect at any point) was an excellent chin. Now I'm not one of these people who pretends he has a glass jaw, he didn't, but I don't think his chin was great which alone would stop him being a perfect fighter. Also too much of his prime was spent fighting guys not able to extend him. I got the impression that a Toney who actually bothered to train properly could have given him a trouble, as could a slightly more experienced Hopkins. He would have beaten Calzaghe at any point till he went to HW though. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest though i think RJJ looked more unbeatable, than Muhammad Ali ever did. I mean to win even 4 rounds against a prime RJJ. Was considered an achievement, i mean he only ever struggled against Eric Harding, Montel Griffin 1, in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Where as Muhammad Ali had a bunch of struggles, he had many controversial decisions and struggles against mediocre fighters. I don't see why you call Muhammad Ali an almost perfect fighter but not RJJ, there pretty similar with how they relied alot on there athletic ability, except RJJ hit harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI don't think Salvador Sanchez had great one punch power, although it was better than Ali's, he tended to break guys down systematically in most of his fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseA perfect fighter needs to have one punch power. So that would eliminate AliQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Michael Spinks was a pretty complete fighter at LHW. I disagree with Duran though. For me a perfect fighter never does what he does in his 2nd fight with Leonard.
I don't think a "perfect fighter" needs one punch power--just solid power.
what about Hagler? i know hes not the perfect but he damn near had it all.
Shane Mosely at 135.
Mayweather.....guy has it all except maybe brute one punch ko power; though he was sparking guys out in his earlier, lower weight days. Speed, intelligence, can hit you anywhere, anytime, with anything he likes; about the best defense I've seen; seen him take a couple to the chin and smile about it so good chin, adapts to any opponent with ease{which imo makes one truly elite}. Guy's got it all but is a cock.
Floyd Mayweather Jr. He is the closest to being one he seems to be a fighter that can fight any way he wants. I'll never forget how he fought all those rounds with Hatton one way and then actually started using a jab in the latter rounds almost as if to prove he could and was deadly accurate with that too.
Mayweather has it all, power, chin, boxing ability, jab, speed, defense. People just dont like the "money mayweather' Character that he uses to sell fights. But he worked hard to gain the right to brag
My definition of a "perfect fighter" a guy who can punch but can also box, can take punishment and avoid punishment...a well rounded fighter that is gifted in all fields.
My personal list:
Roberto Duran
Joe Louis
Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Going by that definition then I would have to go with Marvin Hagler. Chin, heart, power, brawler, boxer-puncher, great defense (which was underrated) , the hand speed wasn't amazing other than that he had it all imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
agree, i like roy. if he had good whiskers he'd be a perfect fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest though i think RJJ looked more unbeatable, than Muhammad Ali ever did. I mean to win even 4 rounds against a prime RJJ. Was considered an achievement, i mean he only ever struggled against Eric Harding, Montel Griffin 1, in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Where as Muhammad Ali had a bunch of struggles, he had many controversial decisions and struggles against mediocre fighters. I don't see why you call Muhammad Ali an almost perfect fighter but not RJJ, there pretty similar with how they relied alot on there athletic ability, except RJJ hit harder.
The closest thing to a perfect fighter is Carl 'The Cobra' Froch.
It's true that his defense is lacking but when you have an indestructable chin and body, wasting time taking defensive action only detracts, much like a sprinter would be foolishly wasting time if he was checking that there was solid ground beneath his feet before each step.
A defense is only necessary when your opponent can hurt you, we don't wear crash helmets when we go outside to protect us from flies, simply not necessary.
So, in conclusion, yes the most perfect fighter is Carl 'The Cobra' Froch.
Stop :beat: on your screen again. Thread says perfect fighter. Not crappiestQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
motivated lennox lewis
pernell whitaker
motivated lennox lewis
pernell whitaker
Eder Jofre
The best all rounder ive seen .Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Lennox couldnt really fight on the inside , and as great as sweatpea was he lacked power.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyBacon
I hate to say it but SRL at his peak which was relatively a short span of time.
I hate to disagree with you but Holmes had fantastic handspeed in his youth (before 1985). And his jab sure as hell smacked a bigger wallop than Ali's. Holmes just set down on his punches more than Ali. He might not have tried to throw the same kind of flurries that Ali did, but it was because he seemed more intent on ending fights early. If you remember he was almost 29 when he won the title. Ali was 29 when he began his comeback. Look at the fights that Ali had at 29-32 and the same for Holmes and who was quicker and more devastating.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBIm actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
There is no such thing as the perfect fighter (as we all know) ..... some people may point to the likes of Marciano who was undefeated, but they would be sacrificing their objective judgement on the cold altar of statistics.
In terms of people who didnt seem to have any obvious weaknesses, fighters like Hagler could do everything (although he did have a tendency towards passivity in the ring) .... Joe Louis was very very good at everything - the complete fighting machine, but he sometimes had poor balance and could be caught early on in fights.
Ali is not a good example of this - he had a freakish style and a character suited to battling real and imaginary enemies, but he held his hands low, sometimes undertrained and was not a one-punch hitter (Cleveland Williams may disagree with me there)
Sonny Liston was a solid guy - good technique, killer power, right temperament. George Foreman was built in the same mold.
In heavyweight terms, Cus D'Amato did describe his vision of the perfect fighter - six foot to six foot two, big shoulders tapering to a slim waist, thin legs but with big thighs. A fighter who was aware of his strenghts and constantly hereded his opponents towards them. He said this in the 1940's and famously was describing Max Bear ....... but you could see how he developed his later fighters on this identikit?
For me though, longevity charisma, speed, intelligence, power and every punch and tick in the book all came together in Ray Robinson. The guy really did have everything and as a welterweight was probably unbeatable.