Carl Froch7/4
Mikkel Kessler11/4
Arthur Abraham7/2
Jermain Taylor5/1
Andre Ward10/1
Andre Dirrell14/1
I think Taylor is the only one that CAN'T win it!!
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Those odds haven't changed a jot since they were put up weeks ago (no money for it). They are with Hills.
Some of the other firms have Kessler favourite, Kessler/Froch joint fav.
I'd want 14/1 that this thing goes as planned. No chance.
Partly why Froch may be above Kessler on some, as he's the most likely to be yanked out by legal shite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Taylor had Froch (the favorite) BEAT if he lasted another 12 seconds.. how can you say he "CAN'T" win it? Seems crazy to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
TBH i see Kessler and Abraham as the favorites. I don't see Froch beating Kess and i think Abraham has a safer style for the rest of the fighters. Abraham Froch would be a HELL of a fight.
Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.
KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.
Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.
Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.
Both Andre's are largely unknown quantities, Ward less so following his dominant win over Miranda, more impressive than Abraham's outings imo, although he's yet to fight at world class so we can't really put him above Artur.
I think the bookies have a tough time with this. Obviously in Britain many will be backing Froch, and as the only fighter to already have a win in this class, and by KO, it's understandable they have made him favourite.
Kessler is probably the most sensible choice if I had to pick, he is a proven performer at this level.
I guess Abraham would be at 3, but he's still yet to fight in this class, and has not yet fought at 168.
Taylor has the skills to beat them all, but in fading to Pavlik and now Froch, and barely hanging on against Winky Wright there are justifiably many doubts about his ability to last into the championship rounds so a risky choice to put money on.
The Andre's could both certainly do well, but we have no form guide to go on with them, especially Dirrell so they deserve to be the betting outsiders at this point.
I actually agree with these odds entirely to be honest, at least from British bookies who stand to lose most if Froch wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Ward looks good money at 10/1, the way he completely and utterly outboxed Miranda would bode well for a fight with Froch and maybe Abraham who he could well outwork, especially in the early rounds.
If I was a betting man, I'd say Ward is most worth a bet at those odds, Taylor could potentially beat them all but the chances of him not being KO'd having to face virtually all of that lot is a very big gamble to take, I agree, as much as he could potentially beat any of them on his day, he's no way going to make it through all of them without being sparked at some point.
Taylor aside. Abraham and Froch to me are probably the most beatable. I can see the likes of Kessler and Ward outboxing both of them. Not saying they will, but that they have a great chance to.
Against this level of opposition it will be hard for Abraham I think who usually doesn't get going until about round 5. I can't see him being able to give away the first third of the fight at this level.
Froch could be outboxed by all of them although his power and will to win will see him through some of these fights.
But as he's going to have to go to the well for each fight it's a hard ask and a lot of physical toll on his body to slug toe to toe against all of this lot.
Kessler's jab could be the key to the whole event.
He's the man to beat imo, although Ward could cause problems, in some ways a shame they are fighting in the first round, I think Ward does well in this event.
Who did Froch fight who was a P4P fighter? Taylor was far, far removed from that status and Pascal isn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Also, you found Ward's victory over Miranda better than Abraham's? I disagree there. The first Abraham - Miranda fight, while it could (and possibly should) have been a TKO, was an extremely impressive show of heart by Abraham and I think (ignore the TKO scenario) that even without the point deductions Abraham won. In the second fight, he absolutely schooled and then stopped Miranda. Ward's performance was good as well, but the version of Miranda he beat was a lot more known and exposed than the one Abraham defeated twice.
Taylor was one fight removed p4p hardly far far removed. He's still a world class force and better than any other fighter that any of these guys have beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWho did Froch fight who was a P4P fighter? Taylor was far, far removed from that status and Pascal isn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Also, you found Ward's victory over Miranda better than Abraham's? I disagree there. The first Abraham - Miranda fight, while it could (and possibly should) have been a TKO, was an extremely impressive show of heart by Abraham and I think (ignore the TKO scenario) that even without the point deductions Abraham won. In the second fight, he absolutely schooled and then stopped Miranda. Ward's performance was good as well, but the version of Miranda he beat was a lot more known and exposed than the one Abraham defeated twice.
Who of the guys the others have beat would you rate above him?
Miranda?
Mundine?
Beyer?
The only other guy who has beaten fighters of real pedigree is Taylor, and Froch knocked him out.
As for Abraham schooling Miranda firstly I'm talking about both bouts. Ward handled him easily first time around, whereas Abraham went life and death in the first fight.
Secondly Abraham didn't school Miranda for the entirety of the second fight, you could make a case that Edison won all the first three rounds as Abraham started with his typically cagey slow opening style.
Once he had him hurt he took him apart for sure but he wasn't outboxing Miranda up to that point, far from it.
Ward is a better boxer than Abraham, but with considerably less power. When these two meet it will be exciting. If Ward can take Abraham's power he outworks him and wins a decision imo.
If not, then Abraham either finishes him or puts him in survival mode enough to win a UD.
Taylor was more than once fight removed from P4P status. More than a few lists I saw dropped him from their top 10 after the Spinks fight. Regardless of when he was dropped, he hasn't been considered a top 10 P4P fighter since 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboTaylor was one fight removed p4p hardly far far removed. He's still a world class force and better than any other fighter that any of these guys have beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWho did Froch fight who was a P4P fighter? Taylor was far, far removed from that status and Pascal isn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Also, you found Ward's victory over Miranda better than Abraham's? I disagree there. The first Abraham - Miranda fight, while it could (and possibly should) have been a TKO, was an extremely impressive show of heart by Abraham and I think (ignore the TKO scenario) that even without the point deductions Abraham won. In the second fight, he absolutely schooled and then stopped Miranda. Ward's performance was good as well, but the version of Miranda he beat was a lot more known and exposed than the one Abraham defeated twice.
Who of the guys the others have beat would you rate above him?
Miranda?
Mundine?
Beyer?
The only other guy who has beaten fighters of real pedigree is Taylor, and Froch knocked him out.
As for Abraham schooling Miranda firstly I'm talking about both bouts. Ward handled him easily first time around, whereas Abraham went life and death in the first fight.
Secondly Abraham didn't school Miranda for the entirety of the second fight, you could make a case that Edison won all the first three rounds as Abraham started with his typically cagey slow opening style.
Once he had him hurt he took him apart for sure but he wasn't outboxing Miranda up to that point, far from it.
Ward is a better boxer than Abraham, but with considerably less power. When these two meet it will be exciting. If Ward can take Abraham's power he outworks him and wins a decision imo.
If not, then Abraham either finishes him or puts him in survival mode enough to win a UD.
Re: Miranda
The first fight between Abraham and Miranda was close (made much close because of the broken jaw IMO), but at that point Miranda was a completely unknown entity and a much better opponent as a result of that. Miranda made his name on that first fight. As soon as Pavlik, and later Abraham, beat him the mystique had been undone. Even following the Pavlik loss, many people (perhaps a majority) were picking him to beat Abraham in the rematch. Abraham travelled to his backyard, and yes took him to school. Abraham did little offensively for the first three rounds, but even with him in full on defensive mode Miranda didn't land a single clean punch the entire fight. As soon as he started opening up in round 4, Abraham countered him and knocked him out. He was comprehensively outboxed and outthought the entire fight. By the time Ward fought him, he was a badly exposed fighter who no longer was able to intimidate his opponents. Not to take anything away from Ward - it was a solid, well-fought victory, but in my mind it was far less impressive than the two Abraham victories.
You neatly sidestepped my first question.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHTaylor was more than once fight removed from P4P status. More than a few lists I saw dropped him from their top 10 after the Spinks fight. Regardless of when he was dropped, he hasn't been considered a top 10 P4P fighter since 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboTaylor was one fight removed p4p hardly far far removed. He's still a world class force and better than any other fighter that any of these guys have beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Who of the guys the others have beat would you rate above him?
Miranda?
Mundine?
Beyer?
The only other guy who has beaten fighters of real pedigree is Taylor, and Froch knocked him out.
As for Abraham schooling Miranda firstly I'm talking about both bouts. Ward handled him easily first time around, whereas Abraham went life and death in the first fight.
Secondly Abraham didn't school Miranda for the entirety of the second fight, you could make a case that Edison won all the first three rounds as Abraham started with his typically cagey slow opening style.
Once he had him hurt he took him apart for sure but he wasn't outboxing Miranda up to that point, far from it.
Ward is a better boxer than Abraham, but with considerably less power. When these two meet it will be exciting. If Ward can take Abraham's power he outworks him and wins a decision imo.
If not, then Abraham either finishes him or puts him in survival mode enough to win a UD.
Re: Miranda
The first fight between Abraham and Miranda was close (made much close because of the broken jaw IMO), but at that point Miranda was a completely unknown entity and a much better opponent as a result of that. Miranda made his name on that first fight. As soon as Pavlik, and later Abraham, beat him the mystique had been undone. Even following the Pavlik loss, many people (perhaps a majority) were picking him to beat Abraham in the rematch. Abraham travelled to his backyard, and yes took him to school. Abraham did little offensively for the first three rounds, but even with him in full on defensive mode Miranda didn't land a single clean punch the entire fight. As soon as he started opening up in round 4, Abraham countered him and knocked him out. He was comprehensively outboxed and outthought the entire fight. By the time Ward fought him, he was a badly exposed fighter who no longer was able to intimidate his opponents. Not to take anything away from Ward - it was a solid, well-fought victory, but in my mind it was far less impressive than the two Abraham victories.
Who better than Taylor have ANY of the other guys beaten?
If you want to insist he hasn't been p4p for the last two years, name a single opponent any of the other guys has beat who has EVER been in the p4p?
None of the other guys Froch and Taylor withstanding, have beaten a p4p fighter, either p4p present or p4p at any time in their careers. My point still stands.
If you disagree then point out which opponents on the resume's of Ward, Dirrel, Abraham and Kessler is a better win then KO'ing Jermain Taylor?
I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHTaylor was more than once fight removed from P4P status. More than a few lists I saw dropped him from their top 10 after the Spinks fight. Regardless of when he was dropped, he hasn't been considered a top 10 P4P fighter since 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Re: Miranda
The first fight between Abraham and Miranda was close (made much close because of the broken jaw IMO), but at that point Miranda was a completely unknown entity and a much better opponent as a result of that. Miranda made his name on that first fight. As soon as Pavlik, and later Abraham, beat him the mystique had been undone. Even following the Pavlik loss, many people (perhaps a majority) were picking him to beat Abraham in the rematch. Abraham travelled to his backyard, and yes took him to school. Abraham did little offensively for the first three rounds, but even with him in full on defensive mode Miranda didn't land a single clean punch the entire fight. As soon as he started opening up in round 4, Abraham countered him and knocked him out. He was comprehensively outboxed and outthought the entire fight. By the time Ward fought him, he was a badly exposed fighter who no longer was able to intimidate his opponents. Not to take anything away from Ward - it was a solid, well-fought victory, but in my mind it was far less impressive than the two Abraham victories.
You neatly sidestepped my first question.
Who better than Taylor have ANY of the other guys beaten?
If you want to insist he hasn't been p4p for the last two years, name a single opponent any of the other guys has beat who has EVER been in the p4p?
None of the other guys Froch and Taylor withstanding, have beaten a p4p fighter, either p4p present or p4p at any time in their careers. My point still stands.
If you disagree then point out which opponents on the resume's of Ward, Dirrel, Abraham and Kessler is a better win then KO'ing Jermain Taylor?
No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.
Ward wasn't able to knock out Miranda who was previously knocked out by Pavlik (1st) and Abraham (2nd). Ward may not have the punching power at the elite level and the tournament favors knockouts; knockouts get the winner 3 points as opposed to 2. He risks winning fights and still being eliminated. Abraham and Froch are arguably the biggest punchers of the bunch, but as mentioned each has weaknesses. Kessler has to be the favorite because he is a proven commodity at 168 and (outside of JT) has faced the best competitio. Yet even Kessler has questions marks - his inactivity and inability to face elite competition since his loss to Calzaghe. Dirrell hasn't shown me enough in his career to show me he has what it takes to win this one. He'll be a good pick if he blows by Froch in Nottingham.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI actually agree with these odds entirely to be honest, at least from British bookies who stand to lose most if Froch wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Ward looks good money at 10/1, the way he completely and utterly outboxed Miranda would bode well for a fight with Froch and maybe Abraham who he could well outwork, especially in the early rounds.
If I was a betting man, I'd say Ward is most worth a bet at those odds, Taylor could potentially beat them all but the chances of him not being KO'd having to face virtually all of that lot is a very big gamble to take, I agree, as much as he could potentially beat any of them on his day, he's no way going to make it through all of them without being sparked at some point.
Taylor aside. Abraham and Froch to me are probably the most beatable. I can see the likes of Kessler and Ward outboxing both of them. Not saying they will, but that they have a great chance to.
Against this level of opposition it will be hard for Abraham I think who usually doesn't get going until about round 5. I can't see him being able to give away the first third of the fight at this level.
Froch could be outboxed by all of them although his power and will to win will see him through some of these fights.
But as he's going to have to go to the well for each fight it's a hard ask and a lot of physical toll on his body to slug toe to toe against all of this lot.
Kessler's jab could be the key to the whole event.
He's the man to beat imo, although Ward could cause problems, in some ways a shame they are fighting in the first round, I think Ward does well in this event.
Yeah there must be a great chance this thing doesn't get close to being completed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BompPartly why Froch may be above Kessler on some, as he's the most likely to be yanked out by legal shite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
But Froch is the favourite because he's the Brit (with a Brit bookie pricing it up), so will obviously attract the patriotic (mug) money, making him a loser for the bookies.
Dirrell has to be worth a bet at 14/1 purely because should he beat Froch his price will tumble big time, not just in the outright market but also in his next matches.
I am a shit gambler. Fact.
Well if Taylor hd've lasted 12 more seconds (which is completely irrelevant coz he didn't and he got KTFO) I would've given a 10-7 round to Froch and scored it a draw ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33Taylor had Froch (the favorite) BEAT if he lasted another 12 seconds.. how can you say he "CAN'T" win it? Seems crazy to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
TBH i see Kessler and Abraham as the favorites. I don't see Froch beating Kess and i think Abraham has a safer style for the rest of the fighters. Abraham Froch would be a HELL of a fight.
TAYLOR?!?! I think Ward doesn't have much of a shot either, his competition of late isn't the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I think the smart money is on Kessler or Abraham....or Dirrell whom at those odds, I really like.
How is the second round going to go??? Who fights who next and does someone get a bye???
Also, let's not kid ourselves Taylor was outboxing Froch until that last round! Taylor was up 106-102 on 2 of the cards and unexplicably JT was down 102-106 on another judge's card.
Mikkel Kessler and Arthur Abraham can box AND punch so Froch is going to have trouble with them IF he's able to get past Dirrell who is also a solid boxer.
The only issue I have with AA is that like Bernard Hopkins, he gives away the first half of the fight by playing defense and allowing his opponent to gas himself out. I think if JT plays it smart (which signs point that he won't) he'll win rounds at a slow pace and then saves some energy for the late rounds then he can survive and maybe even win that fight. He has to be better on defense and use the jab better and MOVE FFS, he stands still too much these days.
Remember Kesseler counter punch Joe C those early rounds.....i feel he could win it if he had not been so inactive since the Calzaghe fight. Personally, I'm pulling for Mikkel Kessler
Well this is the entirety of what I wrote;Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH
You neatly sidestepped my first question.
Who better than Taylor have ANY of the other guys beaten?
If you want to insist he hasn't been p4p for the last two years, name a single opponent any of the other guys has beat who has EVER been in the p4p?
None of the other guys Froch and Taylor withstanding, have beaten a p4p fighter, either p4p present or p4p at any time in their careers. My point still stands.
If you disagree then point out which opponents on the resume's of Ward, Dirrel, Abraham and Kessler is a better win then KO'ing Jermain Taylor?
No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.
Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.
KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.
Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.
Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.
I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.
And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.
You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.
Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,
So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point :)
You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.
Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.
Speaking of opponents. Froch's highest opponent to date is Jermain Taylor, and Andre Ward's is Edison Miranda. Have any of the other guys beaten someone better then those two? Well Kessler beat Mundine so I'd say thats about it.
To be honest, you could even make a case that Jean Pascal is a better opponent than most of them have faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Is Mundine, or an old Beyer better than Pascal? I don't know?
Is Mundine even a world champion? I think he's only ever held a title when Kessler has been promoted to super champ, not sure he's actually won a real belt.
Pascal has go to be on the same level as Miranda, considering he's a legit 175 light heavyweight world champ now and Miranda never won a world title at all.
No question Froch has the best resume going into this, at least as far as recent form goes.
Will that mean anything when the tournament starts, we'll have to wait and see.
Certainly only Kessler and Froch have beaten any world champs. Ward, Dirrell, Abraham have never faced another world champ past, present or futue I don't believe.
Taylor has, but Froch ko'd him hence his status as favourite.
What in the sweet fuck are you talking about? You're bringing up things we haven't been discussing. We were talking about Abraham/Ward - Miranda and the fact that you (erroneously) claimed that Froch has a victory over a P4P fighter (nowhere in the post I responded to did you use the word former). Instead of responding to my reply, you threw up a red herring and embarked on a tangent.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell this is the entirety of what I wrote;Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.
Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.
KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.
Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.
Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.
I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.
And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.
You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.
Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,
So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point :)
You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.
Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.
Jermaine Taylor has never been P4P top 5 to the best of my knowledge. Even if he was, he was FAR removed from that status when he entered the ring with Froch. Still, he was comprehensively outboxing Froch before he gassed (like usual) and got stopped. He had not looked like a P4P fighter since the Wright fight (bar the first two rounds of the first Pavlik fight) and he was not a top 10 P4P fighter the night he entered the right with Froch.
The fact that Taylor used to be ranked in P4P lists means absolutely nothing in the context of Froch's victory. It was a good, exciting win over a faded, somewhat known and exposed fighter moving up in weight, nothing more or less.
Kessler's experience with Mundine and Calzaghe, and even Andrade, trumps Froch's victories over Pascal and Taylor in my opinion (though that's a debatable point). He's one of the most limited fighters in the tournament and while I think he chin, heart, workrate, and above average power will enable him to perform well, I do not think he will win.
I gave Miranda the first 3 rounds of the second fight. No way was Abraham winning after 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWho did Froch fight who was a P4P fighter? Taylor was far, far removed from that status and Pascal isn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Also, you found Ward's victory over Miranda better than Abraham's? I disagree there. The first Abraham - Miranda fight, while it could (and possibly should) have been a TKO, was an extremely impressive show of heart by Abraham and I think (ignore the TKO scenario) that even without the point deductions Abraham won. In the second fight, he absolutely schooled and then stopped Miranda. Ward's performance was good as well, but the version of Miranda he beat was a lot more known and exposed than the one Abraham defeated twice.
Abraham may not have been winning at the point, because he had done nothing offensively, but that doesn't mean he wasn't making Miranda do exactly what he wanted him to do. Miranda couldn't penetrate his defense at all, was made to do exactly what Abraham wanted him to do, and got knocked out the instant Abraham started to punch. I would consider that a schooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyleeI gave Miranda the first 3 rounds of the second fight. No way was Abraham winning after 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWho did Froch fight who was a P4P fighter? Taylor was far, far removed from that status and Pascal isn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Also, you found Ward's victory over Miranda better than Abraham's? I disagree there. The first Abraham - Miranda fight, while it could (and possibly should) have been a TKO, was an extremely impressive show of heart by Abraham and I think (ignore the TKO scenario) that even without the point deductions Abraham won. In the second fight, he absolutely schooled and then stopped Miranda. Ward's performance was good as well, but the version of Miranda he beat was a lot more known and exposed than the one Abraham defeated twice.
Talk about contradicting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHAbraham may not have been winning at the point, because he had done nothing offensively, but that doesn't mean he wasn't making Miranda do exactly what he wanted him to do. Miranda couldn't penetrate his defense at all, was made to do exactly what Abraham wanted him to do, and got knocked out the instant Abraham started to punch. I would consider that a schooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyleeI gave Miranda the first 3 rounds of the second fight. No way was Abraham winning after 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
So if a fighter gets dominated the first 3 rounds of a fight and then all of a sudden has a big 4th round and wins by KO he schooled his opponent in the entire fight? Whatever.
I definitely disagree with you on this point. Most people actually argue the two finest performances of Jermain Taylors career actually came in his two ko losses.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWhat in the sweet fuck are you talking about? You're bringing up things we haven't been discussing. We were talking about Abraham/Ward - Miranda and the fact that you (erroneously) claimed that Froch has a victory over a P4P fighter (nowhere in the post I responded to did you use the word former). Instead of responding to my reply, you threw up a red herring and embarked on a tangent.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell this is the entirety of what I wrote;Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.
KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.
Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.
Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.
I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.
And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.
You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.
Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,
So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point :)
You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.
Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.
Jermaine Taylor has never been P4P top 5 to the best of my knowledge. Even if he was, he was FAR removed from that status when he entered the ring with Froch. Still, he was comprehensively outboxing Froch before he gassed (like usual) and got stopped. He had not looked like a P4P fighter since the Wright fight (bar the first two rounds of the first Pavlik fight) and he was not a top 10 P4P fighter the night he entered the right with Froch.
The fact that Taylor used to be ranked in P4P lists means absolutely nothing in the context of Froch's victory. It was a good, exciting win over a faded, somewhat known and exposed fighter moving up in weight, nothing more or less.
Kessler's experience with Mundine and Calzaghe, and even Andrade, trumps Froch's victories over Pascal and Taylor in my opinion (though that's a debatable point). He's one of the most limited fighters in the tournament and while I think he chin, heart, workrate, and above average power will enable him to perform well, I do not think he will win.
You are the one kidding yourself if you think Jermain Taylor is no longer an elite level fighter.
True he has been found wanting in the late rounds against two of the most dangerous and punishing fighters in the sport in Froch and Pavlik but you talk about him as if he's done, just a shell of a fighter etc.
He's still in his physical prime. He has the speed and skills to win the whole tournament, even now after two devastating ko losses.
Where he comes up short is stamina and in burning up too much nervous energy in fights which catches up with him in the late rounds.
Although that certainly has been damaging to his career, and is now a known weakness that his opponents are aware of it in no way reduces his actual boxing ability, or his ability to win the first 9 rounds of a fight.
You seem to be arguing that the Taylor that is fighting now is not as good as the Taylor that was fighting a couple years or so ago. I don't think there is any evidence to back up that statement.
He;s still every bit as good as he ever has been, he's just got some serious late stage issues in the championship rounds.
NOBODY is just going to walk through Jermain Taylor, and there's a good chance he could be ahead on the scorecards at the halfway point against all of the fighters.
True, I expect the likes of Abrham and Kessler to catch up with him eventually, but not because he is done as a fighter, or just a shell as you seem to be implying.
He's still one of the best fighters in the world, even after his losses. How many fighters have more natural skill and ability than Taylor in any weight class when he's on his game? Not many.
It's not a contradiction at all. Miranda was not dominating anything. If he was winning it was because he fighting offensively while Abraham did nothing. He never landed anything of real significance, Abraham made him do what he wanted him to do and then knocked him out as soon as he opened up. Miranda did nothing in that fight but hit gloves and then get knocked out; he did nothing offensively significant through the entire fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyleeTalk about contradicting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHAbraham may not have been winning at the point, because he had done nothing offensively, but that doesn't mean he wasn't making Miranda do exactly what he wanted him to do. Miranda couldn't penetrate his defense at all, was made to do exactly what Abraham wanted him to do, and got knocked out the instant Abraham started to punch. I would consider that a schooling.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee
So if a fighter gets dominated the first 3 rounds of a fight and then all of a sudden has a big 4th round and wins by KO he schooled his opponent in the entire fight? Whatever.
Jermaine Taylor is an elite fighter (edit: depending on how loosely you define "elite"; he's certainly one of the best 20-30 fighters in the world), where have I contested that? He's not - in my opinion - the fighter he used to be and he is not a top 10 P4P fight, nor was he when he fought Froch.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI definitely disagree with you on this point. Most people actually argue the two finest performances of Jermain Taylors career actually came in his two ko losses.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWhat in the sweet fuck are you talking about? You're bringing up things we haven't been discussing. We were talking about Abraham/Ward - Miranda and the fact that you (erroneously) claimed that Froch has a victory over a P4P fighter (nowhere in the post I responded to did you use the word former). Instead of responding to my reply, you threw up a red herring and embarked on a tangent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jermaine Taylor has never been P4P top 5 to the best of my knowledge. Even if he was, he was FAR removed from that status when he entered the ring with Froch. Still, he was comprehensively outboxing Froch before he gassed (like usual) and got stopped. He had not looked like a P4P fighter since the Wright fight (bar the first two rounds of the first Pavlik fight) and he was not a top 10 P4P fighter the night he entered the right with Froch.
The fact that Taylor used to be ranked in P4P lists means absolutely nothing in the context of Froch's victory. It was a good, exciting win over a faded, somewhat known and exposed fighter moving up in weight, nothing more or less.
Kessler's experience with Mundine and Calzaghe, and even Andrade, trumps Froch's victories over Pascal and Taylor in my opinion (though that's a debatable point). He's one of the most limited fighters in the tournament and while I think he chin, heart, workrate, and above average power will enable him to perform well, I do not think he will win.
You are the one kidding yourself if you think Jermain Taylor is no longer an elite level fighter.
True he has been found wanting in the late rounds against two of the most dangerous and punishing fighters in the sport in Froch and Pavlik but you talk about him as if he's done, just a shell of a fighter etc.
He's still in his physical prime. He has the speed and skills to win the whole tournament, even now after two devastating ko losses.
Where he comes up short is stamina and in burning up too much nervous energy in fights which catches up with him in the late rounds.
Although that certainly has been damaging to his career, and is now a known weakness that his opponents are aware of it in no way reduces his actual boxing ability, or his ability to win the first 9 rounds of a fight.
You seem to be arguing that the Taylor that is fighting now is not as good as the Taylor that was fighting a couple years or so ago. I don't think there is any evidence to back up that statement.
He;s still every bit as good as he ever has been, he's just got some serious late stage issues in the championship rounds.
NOBODY is just going to walk through Jermain Taylor, and there's a good chance he could be ahead on the scorecards at the halfway point against all of the fighters.
True, I expect the likes of Abrham and Kessler to catch up with him eventually, but not because he is done as a fighter, or just a shell as you seem to be implying.
He's still one of the best fighters in the world, even after his losses. How many fighters have more natural skill and ability than Taylor in any weight class when he's on his game? Not many.
Well i'll be Froched! I reckon both Kessler and Abraham have the best chance of success here.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Personally, I would favor Kessler and Abraham over all the others, Taylor always run out of gas in the late rounds, Froch has shots too telegraphic and Ward/Dirrell have tons of potential but are just not prepared enough for Abraham or the Danish Vicking.
You think Abraham, who's never fought at the weight before has a better shot than Taylor?Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Kessler's onesided win over Librado Andrade was better than Froch's lucky KO over Taylor, for one it was against a fighter who was an established Super Middleweight, and secondly he dominated from start to finish, not get horribly outboxed for the first 8 to 9 rounds then get a lucky ko in the 12thQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboTo be honest, you could even make a case that Jean Pascal is a better opponent than most of them have faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Is Mundine, or an old Beyer better than Pascal? I don't know?
Is Mundine even a world champion? I think he's only ever held a title when Kessler has been promoted to super champ, not sure he's actually won a real belt.
Pascal has go to be on the same level as Miranda, considering he's a legit 175 light heavyweight world champ now and Miranda never won a world title at all.
No question Froch has the best resume going into this, at least as far as recent form goes.
Will that mean anything when the tournament starts, we'll have to wait and see.
Certainly only Kessler and Froch have beaten any world champs. Ward, Dirrell, Abraham have never faced another world champ past, present or futue I don't believe.
Taylor has, but Froch ko'd him hence his status as favourite.
I like Andrade, he's a good honest pro who never gives up, but let's be real, he can't box for shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesKessler's onesided win over Librado Andrade was better than Froch's lucky KO over Taylor, for one it was against a fighter who was an established Super Middleweight, and secondly he dominated from start to finish, not get horribly outboxed for the first 8 to 9 rounds then get a lucky ko in the 12thQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboTo be honest, you could even make a case that Jean Pascal is a better opponent than most of them have faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Is Mundine, or an old Beyer better than Pascal? I don't know?
Is Mundine even a world champion? I think he's only ever held a title when Kessler has been promoted to super champ, not sure he's actually won a real belt.
Pascal has go to be on the same level as Miranda, considering he's a legit 175 light heavyweight world champ now and Miranda never won a world title at all.
No question Froch has the best resume going into this, at least as far as recent form goes.
Will that mean anything when the tournament starts, we'll have to wait and see.
Certainly only Kessler and Froch have beaten any world champs. Ward, Dirrell, Abraham have never faced another world champ past, present or futue I don't believe.
Taylor has, but Froch ko'd him hence his status as favourite.
He gets outboxed by everybody decent and Kessler, a boxer with tremendous fundamentals and jab was always going to pummel him all night.
I think Jermain Taylor would beat him like a drum for 10 rounds at least also.
Taylor is a MUCH better boxer than Andrade, not as tough and durable for sure, but being outboxed by Jermain Taylor in the early rounds is a whole ball park away from being outboxed by Librado Andrade.
Froch's win over Taylor has been greatly underestimated by many. First off it was big step up in class for Froch, secondly he was away from home, fighting one of boxings superstars, and thirdly he came back from the worst start to a fight in his pro career being floored in the third round.
If you actually watch the fight without your blinkers on you'd see that Froch had Taylor in trouble from about round 5 on, it was a very even fight from that moment on with Taylor gradually wilting to Froch's pressure.
It was a great win from Froch, sloppy early on for sure, but from round 5 onwards he was in no way outclassed or embarrassed.
He will be a force in this tournament for sure.
Yep. I think Kessler or Abraham will win - I haven't seen as much of Ward or Dirrell so they may be better than I am giving them credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou think Abraham, who's never fought at the weight before has a better shot than Taylor?Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Part of me is actually thinking he may prove to be the big disappointment of the whole tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HYep. I think Kessler or Abraham will win - I haven't seen as much of Ward or Dirrell so they may be better than I am giving them credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou think Abraham, who's never fought at the weight before has a better shot than Taylor?Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
We've yet to see him in with anybody really decent, even at middleweight let alone at super.
It honestly wouldn't suprise me one bit if in his first fight with Jermain he got completely outboxed and dominated.
I have agreed with literally almost nothing you said but I agree I don't think Abraham matches up well with any of these guys.
I actually think it was a bad move for Abraham, siging up for this.
Kessler will win it in style :cool:
Can't stand Froch, but I agree with your assessment on the Taylor fight, I read the reports before watching the replay and was expecting a complete washout until the final 30 seconds, but that simply wasn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI like Andrade, he's a good honest pro who never gives up, but let's be real, he can't box for shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesKessler's onesided win over Librado Andrade was better than Froch's lucky KO over Taylor, for one it was against a fighter who was an established Super Middleweight, and secondly he dominated from start to finish, not get horribly outboxed for the first 8 to 9 rounds then get a lucky ko in the 12thQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
He gets outboxed by everybody decent and Kessler, a boxer with tremendous fundamentals and jab was always going to pummel him all night.
I think Jermain Taylor would beat him like a drum for 10 rounds at least also.
Taylor is a MUCH better boxer than Andrade, not as tough and durable for sure, but being outboxed by Jermain Taylor in the early rounds is a whole ball park away from being outboxed by Librado Andrade.
Froch's win over Taylor has been greatly underestimated by many. First off it was big step up in class for Froch, secondly he was away from home, fighting one of boxings superstars, and thirdly he came back from the worst start to a fight in his pro career being floored in the third round.
If you actually watch the fight without your blinkers on you'd see that Froch had Taylor in trouble from about round 5 on, it was a very even fight from that moment on with Taylor gradually wilting to Froch's pressure.
It was a great win from Froch, sloppy early on for sure, but from round 5 onwards he was in no way outclassed or embarrassed.
He will be a force in this tournament for sure.
Lot of unknowns in this tourney which makes it fun, and will depend on who gets who in the round robin, where losing just one will still see you through. Still don't think you need a genius to get Froch out of there, his determination and stamina gives him a shot at anyone, yet his dire skills gives anyone a shot against him.
Abraham depended a lot on strength and toughness at 160, have to wait and see if it'll carry.
How was it lucky?? It was very close on the scorecards, do you not think Frochs gameplan was to bring the heat in the last third of the fight as he new what Taylor was like? To call it lucky is pathetic mate, you also forgot to mention he beat the current WBC 175 lb champ, personally Froch imo is probably second fav behind Kessler as like others said he has proven against two world class fighters and beat them the two younger Americans have basically done nothing and were still unsure how they will be when they step it in at world level.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesKessler's onesided win over Librado Andrade was better than Froch's lucky KO over Taylor, for one it was against a fighter who was an established Super Middleweight, and secondly he dominated from start to finish, not get horribly outboxed for the first 8 to 9 rounds then get a lucky ko in the 12thQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboTo be honest, you could even make a case that Jean Pascal is a better opponent than most of them have faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Is Mundine, or an old Beyer better than Pascal? I don't know?
Is Mundine even a world champion? I think he's only ever held a title when Kessler has been promoted to super champ, not sure he's actually won a real belt.
Pascal has go to be on the same level as Miranda, considering he's a legit 175 light heavyweight world champ now and Miranda never won a world title at all.
No question Froch has the best resume going into this, at least as far as recent form goes.
Will that mean anything when the tournament starts, we'll have to wait and see.
Certainly only Kessler and Froch have beaten any world champs. Ward, Dirrell, Abraham have never faced another world champ past, present or futue I don't believe.
Taylor has, but Froch ko'd him hence his status as favourite.
Kessler
Froch
Abraham
Taylor
Ward
Dirrell
Is about right with what they have all done so far in there career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skel1983How was it lucky?? It was very close on the scorecards, do you not think Frochs gameplan was to bring the heat in the last third of the fight as he new what Taylor was like? To call it lucky is pathetic mate, you also forgot to mention he beat the current WBC 175 lb champ, personally Froch imo is probably second fav behind Kessler as like others said he has proven against two world class fighters and beat them the two younger Americans have basically done nothing and were still unsure how they will be when they step it in at world level.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesKessler's onesided win over Librado Andrade was better than Froch's lucky KO over Taylor, for one it was against a fighter who was an established Super Middleweight, and secondly he dominated from start to finish, not get horribly outboxed for the first 8 to 9 rounds then get a lucky ko in the 12thQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Kessler
Froch
Abraham
Taylor
Ward
Dirrell
Is about right with what they have all done so far in there career.
Factoring in achievements AND form (otherwise Taylor would be higher) I totally agree with your list. Just remembered that Abraham-Miranda 2 happened at SM, or 166 at least, SO I think Abraham and Wards respective performances are somewhat relevant, and that Abraham should be able to absorb and give solid punches in this tourney, but outbosing some of the slicker fighters may be a problem.
actually what is "completely irrelevant" is the fact that he got KO'd.. Also what is irrelevant is your scorecard.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HWell if Taylor hd've lasted 12 more seconds (which is completely irrelevant coz he didn't and he got KTFO) I would've given a 10-7 round to Froch and scored it a draw ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33Taylor had Froch (the favorite) BEAT if he lasted another 12 seconds.. how can you say he "CAN'T" win it? Seems crazy to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
TBH i see Kessler and Abraham as the favorites. I don't see Froch beating Kess and i think Abraham has a safer style for the rest of the fighters. Abraham Froch would be a HELL of a fight.
what IS relevant is that Taylor would have won on the score cards if he didn't get KO'd. This isn't about the outcome of the fight, it's about the actual fight. I don't care who actually won, but i'm using this fight as a reference to the upcoming fights, and if Froch is the favorite, then i don't see how Taylor, who took him to the last round, winning on the cards, "CAN'T" win the tournament. It's actually a ludicrous statement.