Comparison of Floyd's punching stats to Vitali's punching stats in latest matches

Interesting article with an odd point: how often does a heavyweight throw more punches (and power punches) than a welterweight? Vitali threw more punches in ten rounds than Floyd threw in twelve!

BOXINGTALK

Haha....

A guy on OnTheGrind Boxing website summed up Mayweather perfect in the Title of an article i read there. It read something like "Mind Bending Skills, Questionable Application".

It would be interesting to see how many punches Arreloa threw compared to JMM. Mayweather might have had to spend more time avoiding punches?

What is more ironic is it is the same people who rip the Klitchkos for being boring and not aggressive who hide in the rest room for a chance to wipe floyd's a$$.

You could also say that Floyd is fighting in a less risky division, the heavyweight's are more likely to change a fight with one punch than any other division and where a less talented fighter can beat a good fighter with one punch, just ask lennox....haha

“The punch stats show that the heavyweights are not always less entertaining than the lightweights,” said Tom Loeffler, Managing Director, K2 Promotions.


not true, it just shows how boring of a fighter pbf is. :)

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Originally Posted by Magoo

It would be interesting to see how many punches Arreloa threw compared to JMM. Mayweather might have had to spend more time avoiding punches?

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I'd imagine their punch outputs were very similar. Neither fighter could get punches off.

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Originally Posted by Magoo

It would be interesting to see how many punches Arreloa threw compared to JMM. Mayweather might have had to spend more time avoiding punches?

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Maybe you are right. Arreola was 86 of 331 and Marquez was 69 for 583. Remember though we are comparing welterweights to heavyweights. Just that they are capable of comparison is slightly odd.

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Originally Posted by Hunter

What is more ironic is it is the same people who rip the Klitchkos for being boring and not aggressive who hide in the rest room for a chance to wipe floyd's a$$.

You could also say that Floyd is fighting in a less risky division, the heavyweight's are more likely to change a fight with one punch than any other division and where a less talented fighter can beat a good fighter with one punch, just ask lennox....haha

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Are you saying that heavyweights would be expected to throw less punches because they are one punch away from being knocked out, which is less likely at lower weights?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Magoo

It would be interesting to see how many punches Arreloa threw compared to JMM. Mayweather might have had to spend more time avoiding punches?

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Maybe you are right. Arreola was 86 of 331 and Marquez was 69 for 583. Remember though we are comparing welterweights to heavyweights. Just that they are capable of comparison is slightly odd.

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Fair point, but Marquez is clearly far more adept at punching than Arreola in terms of his accuracy. I think the fact that a fighter as good as Marquez threw 252 more punches than Arreola & connected 17 less has to say something as well.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Magoo

It would be interesting to see how many punches Arreloa threw compared to JMM. Mayweather might have had to spend more time avoiding punches?

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Maybe you are right. Arreola was 86 of 331 and Marquez was 69 for 583. Remember though we are comparing welterweights to heavyweights. Just that they are capable of comparison is slightly odd.

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I was as way off as a human could ever be. I had a similar feeling watching both fights though, wanting the losing guy to do more, but never quite doing it.

Arreola's output is quite shocking really.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Magoo

It would be interesting to see how many punches Arreloa threw compared to JMM. Mayweather might have had to spend more time avoiding punches?

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Maybe you are right. Arreola was 86 of 331 and Marquez was 69 for 583. Remember though we are comparing welterweights to heavyweights. Just that they are capable of comparison is slightly odd.

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Fair point, but Marquez is clearly far more adept at punching than Arreola in terms of his accuracy. I think the fact that a fighter as good as Marquez threw 252 more punches than Arreola & connected 17 less has to say something as well.

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That Floyd has amazing defense.

Still how many times do you see a heavyweight throwing decisively more punches than a welterweight? Vitali gets a ton of crap for being a boring fighter. At least in this case, the punching stats don't show it.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Maybe you are right. Arreola was 86 of 331 and Marquez was 69 for 583. Remember though we are comparing welterweights to heavyweights. Just that they are capable of comparison is slightly odd.

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Fair point, but Marquez is clearly far more adept at punching than Arreola in terms of his accuracy. I think the fact that a fighter as good as Marquez threw 252 more punches than Arreola & connected 17 less has to say something as well.

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That Floyd has amazing defense.

Still how many times do you see a heavyweight throwing decisively more punches than a welterweight? Vitali gets a ton of crap for being a boring fighter. At least in this case, the punching stats don't show it.

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I don't think he's a boring fighter, I just feel the quality of his & his brother's opponents (not Chagaev or Arreola who I both thought were good fighters) is often not up to standard. I think the reason Vitali's performance gets less praise than Floyd's is because to the average person it isn't as exciting to watch, because his size doesn't allow him to look as fluid & athletic as Mayweather. Although I think Vitali is on the slide, he kept Arreola decisively at bay & I was impressed at how he went to the body. But, I don't really see anyone not giving him credit (Lefty isn't here no more)

You also have to look at quality of punches, 90% of what MAyweather throws is crisp, technical punches, while Vitali throws a lot of half hearted punches and he gets away with it because of his size and strength.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

You also have to look at quality of punches, 90% of what MAyweather throws is crisp, technical punches, while Vitali throws a lot of half hearted punches and he gets away with it because of his size and strength.

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I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but still it when you consider the numbers, it is a little wild to think a heavyweight threw more punches than a welterweight. To your point, also take into consideration that Vitali landed 153 of 201 power punches and Floyd landed 105 of 177 power punches.

I guess another thing to take away from this is that Arreola has a helluva chin because Vitali is a monster of a human and landed a ton of punches on Arreola.

...floyd didn't need to throw as many, and against a much better fighter. Seems more impressive to me.

It may not be that odd at all now that I think about it. However, Klitschko was very busy for a heavyweight.


What is the average punch output of an welterweight/heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Taeth

You also have to look at quality of punches, 90% of what MAyweather throws is crisp, technical punches, while Vitali throws a lot of half hearted punches and he gets away with it because of his size and strength.

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You must be joking. Vitali's win was way more appealing than Floyd's. Vitali was throwing punch FAR harder in comparison to Floyds.

We could also look at the fact that Mayweather was fighting a guy 20lbs lighter than he, and Vitali was fighting a guy who weighed the same
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...lies/spunk.gif

I think the record for punch output in a single fight is held by Ivan Robinson and Phillip holiday 995 combined landed punches. Not sure how many were thrown. But Holiday connected with 555. The record for Compubox.

Then you have Ike Ibeabushi and David Tua putting up some crazy numbers as heavyweights.

The article iself is pointless. Its a question of styles. Its not often a heavy weight throws more punches than a welterweight, but look at the two fighters in question. One evaded punches as 90% of his defense against a pound 4-pound counter puncher and the other shoeshined a 1-2's against a guy who carried his gaurd high and barely threw. Arreola was game, but was he really a great fighter?

If vitali had defense like floyd, he wouldn't need to throw that many punches. If Floyd carried power like vitali's he would take a few to clip his opponents and make the same amount of money for few rounds of work.

Wanna compare punches landed on chris byrd vs those landed on floyd.. ok..sure.. both are considered defensive stylists and neither are considered strong punchers. Want to compare punches thrown/ or KO percentage between Vitali and TSzyu... ok.. cool. Both carry power and tried to box their opponents. The notion of comparing punches thrown by Floyd and Vitali is a spin that was started by HBO and continued in this article ..it only goes to Floyds pocket as evidence of what hes been saying about HBO commentators not knowing $hit about the sport. They would have actually made a point if they compared Floyd and Vitali to their counterparts in the 70's or 80's as evidence they throw more or less punches than a champ/superstar could.

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

The article iself is pointless. Its a question of styles. Its not often a heavy weight throws more punches than a welterweight, but look at the two fighters in question. One evaded punches as 90% of his defense against a pound 4-pound counter puncher and the other shoeshined a 1-2's against a guy who carried his gaurd high and barely threw. Arreola was game, but was he really a great fighter?

If vitali had defense like floyd, he wouldn't need to throw that many punches. If Floyd carried power like vitali's he would take a few to clip his opponents and make the same amount of money for few rounds of work.

Wanna compare punches landed on chris byrd vs those landed on floyd.. ok..sure.. both are considered defensive stylists and neither are considered strong punchers. Want to compare punches thrown/ or KO percentage between Vitali and TSzyu... ok.. cool. Both carry power and tried to box their opponents. The notion of comparing punches thrown by Floyd and Vitali is a spin that was started by HBO and continued in this article ..it only goes to Floyds pocket as evidence of what hes been saying about HBO commentators not knowing $hit about the sport. They would have actually made a point if they compared Floyd and Vitali to their counterparts in the 70's or 80's as evidence they throw more or less punches than a champ/superstar could.

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Dang, well put. You are right you can not just look at numbers like the actual fight didn't tell the truth. Besides these are just one sided numbers. Like someone said, Floyd is a defensive wizard and depending on who he is fighting he may be on the defensive more than the offensive. And Arreola was coming straight line in at Vitali...that would make you a punching bag to a guy as talented as Vitali. Do people really want to keep discrediting everything about Floyd at all costs? His tune up fight against a top p4p guy was brilliant. Now lets move on everybody and see who he faces next.

I dont see any relevance at all.. I think you all have Vitali mixed up with Wlad in the boring dept... Vitali is 10x the fighter and badass.

Vitali is my favorite heavy I have always liked him and thought highly of his heart and determination, he overcame any questions of his fortitude from the Byrd fight, against Lewis he was the epitome of true heart and guts and mental toughness. That fight was something I'll never forget, I give Vitali a pikem chance against any of the great Heavyweights in history and favor him over quite a few.

I was astonished at his volume against Arreola and my concern of his age and getting older overnight was for nothing, that's the only chance I gave Cris was against a Vitali that lost a step. I have made it known numerous times how I feel bad for Vitali because of his injuries, if it wasnt for him going down for 4 years he could have carved himself an even better run of dominace and lineal championship rein. Instead he has to play second fiddle to a guy who has the mental toughness of a 16 year old girl who got dumped by her 1st boyfriend..

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Originally Posted by JonnyFolds

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Originally Posted by Taeth

You also have to look at quality of punches, 90% of what MAyweather throws is crisp, technical punches, while Vitali throws a lot of half hearted punches and he gets away with it because of his size and strength.

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You must be joking. Vitali's win was way more appealing than Floyd's. Vitali was throwing punch FAR harder in comparison to Floyds.

We could also look at the fact that Mayweather was fighting a guy 20lbs lighter than he, and Vitali was fighting a guy who weighed the same
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...lies/spunk.gif

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Where the fuck is your logic coming from? Mayweather did not weigh 168 when he fought Marquez, what are you smoking? Also Arreola shouldn't be anywhere near 250, Mayweather fought a guy in supreme shape, while Vitali fought a guy who looked like he should be entering training camp, not at the end of it. Mayweather didn't throw as many punches, but you look at body rotation and everything, Mayweather was putting more into his punches more often. Mayweather always throws crisp punches, he doesn't throw a lot of punches but he makes as many punches as possible count. That why he almost connected with as many punches as Vitali while throwing less than half as many.

There are plenty of times where both brothers toy with opponents, and also because of their height and size and lack of athleticism(in comparison to Mayweather) there is no way they can get the same rotation on punches. Thats why Lennox Lewis hit harder than either brother, or Tyson, or Tua. Its because they had the ability to put their whole bodies into punches, while Wlad and especially Vitali pummel opponents and frustrate opponents until they steal the guys will to fight but don't have that spark out power.

Floyd fought a guy 8xbetter than Arreola, a guy with speed, counter punching ability, and heart. Floyd showed better everything except power in comparsion to Vitali.

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

The article iself is pointless. Its a question of styles. Its not often a heavy weight throws more punches than a welterweight, but look at the two fighters in question. One evaded punches as 90% of his defense against a pound 4-pound counter puncher and the other shoeshined a 1-2's against a guy who carried his gaurd high and barely threw. Arreola was game, but was he really a great fighter?

If vitali had defense like floyd, he wouldn't need to throw that many punches. If Floyd carried power like vitali's he would take a few to clip his opponents and make the same amount of money for few rounds of work.

Wanna compare punches landed on chris byrd vs those landed on floyd.. ok..sure.. both are considered defensive stylists and neither are considered strong punchers. Want to compare punches thrown/ or KO percentage between Vitali and TSzyu... ok.. cool. Both carry power and tried to box their opponents. The notion of comparing punches thrown by Floyd and Vitali is a spin that was started by HBO and continued in this article ..it only goes to Floyds pocket as evidence of what hes been saying about HBO commentators not knowing $hit about the sport. They would have actually made a point if they compared Floyd and Vitali to their counterparts in the 70's or 80's as evidence they throw more or less punches than a champ/superstar could.

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Great points! Watch yourself though any credit given to Floyd is considered treason around here

I think the quality of opponent should be taken into account too.

Floyd was fighting one of the p4p best whereas Vitali was fighting a big, slow, fat, lumbering plodder who just kept coming forward and inviting Vitali to punch him in his stupid fat face.

Vitali is busy but unlike Floyd he didn't have to use any counterpunching skills. He's just a huge man with long arms who couldn't miss the human heavybag in front of him every time he stuck his jab out.

Under such circumstances we would have all thrown a lot of punches, it would be fun.

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

I dont see any relevance at all.. I think you all have Vitali mixed up with Wlad in the boring dept... Vitali is 10x the fighter and badass.

Vitali is my favorite heavy I have always liked him and thought highly of his heart and determination, he overcame any questions of his fortitude from the Byrd fight, against Lewis he was the epitome of true heart and guts and mental toughness. That fight was something I'll never forget, I give Vitali a pikem chance against any of the great Heavyweights in history and favor him over quite a few.

I was astonished at his volume against Arreola and my concern of his age and getting older overnight was for nothing, that's the only chance I gave Cris was against a Vitali that lost a step. I have made it known numerous times how I feel bad for Vitali because of his injuries, if it wasnt for him going down for 4 years he could have carved himself an even better run of dominace and lineal championship rein. Instead he has to play second fiddle to a guy who has the mental toughness of a 16 year old girl who got dumped by her 1st boyfriend..

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Which is why it's so easy to beat Wladimir and that's why Wladimir never has handled adversity well, he's never dealt with a cut (the way he didn't do it vs Calvin Brock), he's never gotten off the canvas to win (like he didn't do it vs Sam Peter), and he's never avenged a loss (which is why the rematch with Lamon Brewster never happened).

I find it hilarious that a die hard Floyd Mayweather Jr. fan can do nothing but talk shit about a guy who runs a division yet he has weaknesses and flaws but he doesn't hand pick his opponents, he doesn't run away from competition, and he never stops throwing punches.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by JonnyFolds

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Originally Posted by Taeth

You also have to look at quality of punches, 90% of what MAyweather throws is crisp, technical punches, while Vitali throws a lot of half hearted punches and he gets away with it because of his size and strength.

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You must be joking. Vitali's win was way more appealing than Floyd's. Vitali was throwing punch FAR harder in comparison to Floyds.

We could also look at the fact that Mayweather was fighting a guy 20lbs lighter than he, and Vitali was fighting a guy who weighed the same
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...lies/spunk.gif

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Where the fuck is your logic coming from? Mayweather did not weigh 168 when he fought Marquez, what are you smoking? Also Arreola shouldn't be anywhere near 250, Mayweather fought a guy in supreme shape, while Vitali fought a guy who looked like he should be entering training camp, not at the end of it. Mayweather didn't throw as many punches, but you look at body rotation and everything, Mayweather was putting more into his punches more often. Mayweather always throws crisp punches, he doesn't throw a lot of punches but he makes as many punches as possible count. That why he almost connected with as many punches as Vitali while throwing less than half as many.

There are plenty of times where both brothers toy with opponents, and also because of their height and size and lack of athleticism(in comparison to Mayweather) there is no way they can get the same rotation on punches. Thats why Lennox Lewis hit harder than either brother, or Tyson, or Tua. Its because they had the ability to put their whole bodies into punches, while Wlad and especially Vitali pummel opponents and frustrate opponents until they steal the guys will to fight but don't have that spark out power.

Floyd fought a guy 8xbetter than Arreola, a guy with speed, counter punching ability, and heart. Floyd showed better everything except power in comparsion to Vitali.

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Can someone please tell me if there is anything wrong with not throwing many punches if you win the fight? I don't think so. There are different styles in boxing. Right? As a boxing fan, you may prefer to watch some styles in comparison to others, but styles are styles.

I think the point is more that Mayweather doesn't throw many punches in a fight for a welterweight and Vitali throws a lot of punches in a fight for a heavyweight. As Taeth and others have pointed out: it makes sense to an extent given that Mayweather is a pure counterpunching defensive fighter and Vitali is a pure offensive fighter. The reason that it is somewhat astonishing is that generally heavyweights throw less punches than welterweights.

To Bilbo, I don't really think that who Mayweather is fighting makes a difference, but I can't find the data to back that up. What I mean is I don't think Mayweather's punching output would change all that much if he fought a boxer with the same style as Arreola. Mayweather will always be a smart defensive fighter who is averse to risk-taking and doesn't use punch volume to win fights.

I also don't think it really has to do with that Mayweather throws cleaner, crisper punches. Because if you don't throw many punches, you have to make the punches you throw count. If you throw many punches, you don't have to exert the same amount of energy making sure each punch is crisp. Style dictates punch output to an extent.

Also, to Taeth, it is much easier to look athletic when you are shorter than when you are taller. Vitali actually is pretty athletic for a guy who is 6'8 and I've seen many guys who are 5'8 that are very athletic.

Marquez may be 8x better than Arreola, but it is not because he has any more heart. Arreola has a ton of that.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Hunter

What is more ironic is it is the same people who rip the Klitchkos for being boring and not aggressive who hide in the rest room for a chance to wipe floyd's a$$.

You could also say that Floyd is fighting in a less risky division, the heavyweight's are more likely to change a fight with one punch than any other division and where a less talented fighter can beat a good fighter with one punch, just ask lennox....haha

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Are you saying that heavyweights would be expected to throw less punches because they are one punch away from being knocked out, which is less likely at lower weights?

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Yeah - The big men are more at risk when throwing punches because at the HW level 1 punch can change a fight more than at any other level. So you would think this would lead to fewer punches thrown, plus the HWs are just alot bigger and expend more energy throwing.....

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

I dont see any relevance at all.. I think you all have Vitali mixed up with Wlad in the boring dept... Vitali is 10x the fighter and badass.

Vitali is my favorite heavy I have always liked him and thought highly of his heart and determination, he overcame any questions of his fortitude from the Byrd fight, against Lewis he was the epitome of true heart and guts and mental toughness. That fight was something I'll never forget, I give Vitali a pikem chance against any of the great Heavyweights in history and favor him over quite a few.

I was astonished at his volume against Arreola and my concern of his age and getting older overnight was for nothing, that's the only chance I gave Cris was against a Vitali that lost a step. I have made it known numerous times how I feel bad for Vitali because of his injuries, if it wasnt for him going down for 4 years he could have carved himself an even better run of dominace and lineal championship rein. Instead he has to play second fiddle to a guy who has the mental toughness of a 16 year old girl who got dumped by her 1st boyfriend..

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Which is why it's so easy to beat Wladimir and that's why Wladimir never has handled adversity well, he's never dealt with a cut (the way he didn't do it vs Calvin Brock), he's never gotten off the canvas to win (like he didn't do it vs Sam Peter), and he's never avenged a loss (which is why the rematch with Lamon Brewster never happened).

I find it hilarious that a die hard Floyd Mayweather Jr. fan can do nothing but talk shit about a guy who runs a division yet he has weaknesses and flaws but he doesn't hand pick his opponents, he doesn't run away from competition, and he never stops throwing punches.

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News flash Lyle, the division is weak and I dont care how you justify it, Mayweather is a better fighter in all regards. PFP being a standard albeit fantasy measuring stick that fighters are judged by, Wlad isint even in the same convo with Mayweather, PFP Wlads best wins arent on par with Mayweathers. I dont hold the quality of comp against Wlad because its a product of his era and not his fault. You and the rest of your Wlad apologists can try to compare Wlad to Floyd all you want but there is no comparison, none at all WLAD is a heavyweight with undeniable 1 punch KO power. He jabs his way through 1/2 of a fight and refuses to press and annihilate a fighter that has been broken down and beaten 4 rounds prior. He is fragile at best and is protecting a weak chin, he desperately holds within 2ft of his reach and flops around the ring like a fish when pressed in the past... There is no comparison to Mayweather

Vitali is the better fighter and champion he possesses certain intangibles that other great heavyweights have, you never get the sense that Vitali is vulnerable or in trouble, never a look of desperation just a cool relaxed confidence in himself. The only way you ever hear of Vitali getting bet against is because of age and nothing else. Wlads been unraveled and stopped 3x by fighters who were signifigantly less than him, hence no matter what until the day he retires he will always have that label of fragile and chinny and he fights like someone who is protecting those vulnerabilities, nothing wrong with that but in the division he fights in, those arent qualities that people want to see in their Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

I welcome any challenge or debate on who the better brother is, because there is no way in hell Wlad could ever beat Vitali.. Vitali is the best Heavy in the world right now BAR NONE!!!

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by JonnyFolds

You must be joking. Vitali's win was way more appealing than Floyd's. Vitali was throwing punch FAR harder in comparison to Floyds.

We could also look at the fact that Mayweather was fighting a guy 20lbs lighter than he, and Vitali was fighting a guy who weighed the same
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...lies/spunk.gif

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Where the fuck is your logic coming from? Mayweather did not weigh 168 when he fought Marquez, what are you smoking? Also Arreola shouldn't be anywhere near 250, Mayweather fought a guy in supreme shape, while Vitali fought a guy who looked like he should be entering training camp, not at the end of it. Mayweather didn't throw as many punches, but you look at body rotation and everything, Mayweather was putting more into his punches more often. Mayweather always throws crisp punches, he doesn't throw a lot of punches but he makes as many punches as possible count. That why he almost connected with as many punches as Vitali while throwing less than half as many.

There are plenty of times where both brothers toy with opponents, and also because of their height and size and lack of athleticism(in comparison to Mayweather) there is no way they can get the same rotation on punches. Thats why Lennox Lewis hit harder than either brother, or Tyson, or Tua. Its because they had the ability to put their whole bodies into punches, while Wlad and especially Vitali pummel opponents and frustrate opponents until they steal the guys will to fight but don't have that spark out power.

Floyd fought a guy 8xbetter than Arreola, a guy with speed, counter punching ability, and heart. Floyd showed better everything except power in comparsion to Vitali.

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Can someone please tell me if there is anything wrong with not throwing many punches if you win the fight? I don't think so. There are different styles in boxing. Right? As a boxing fan, you may prefer to watch some styles in comparison to others, but styles are styles.

I think the point is more that Mayweather doesn't throw many punches in a fight for a welterweight and Vitali throws a lot of punches in a fight for a heavyweight. As Taeth and others have pointed out: it makes sense to an extent given that Mayweather is a pure counterpunching defensive fighter and Vitali is a pure offensive fighter. The reason that it is somewhat astonishing is that generally heavyweights throw less punches than welterweights.

To Bilbo, I don't really think that who Mayweather is fighting makes a difference, but I can't find the data to back that up. What I mean is I don't think Mayweather's punching output would change all that much if he fought a boxer with the same style as Arreola. Mayweather will always be a smart defensive fighter who is averse to risk-taking and doesn't use punch volume to win fights.

I also don't think it really has to do with that Mayweather throws cleaner, crisper punches. Because if you don't throw many punches, you have to make the punches you throw count. If you throw many punches, you don't have to exert the same amount of energy making sure each punch is crisp. Style dictates punch output to an extent.

Also, to Taeth, it is much easier to look athletic when you are shorter than when you are taller. Vitali actually is pretty athletic for a guy who is 6'8 and I've seen many guys who are 5'8 that are very athletic.

Marquez may be 8x better than Arreola, but it is not because he has any more heart. Arreola has a ton of that.

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I didn't say Marquez had more heart, but he had everything else way better than Arreola except power, and he had the same amount of heart as Arreola. Also height definitely plays a factor in coordination, but great athletes even tall guys still have great coordination which both brothers don't have(Wladimir Klitschko is still a really good athlete, but not quite elite, elite)

If you need examples you won't find them in boxing but here are a few :Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Shaquille O'neil, etc. these guys are tall, but have the coordination of guys like Mayweather.

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

News flash Lyle, the division is weak and I dont care how you justify it, Mayweather is a better fighter in all regards. PFP being a standard albeit fantasy measuring stick that fighters are judged by, Wlad isint even in the same convo with Mayweather, PFP Wlads best wins arent on par with Mayweathers. I dont hold the quality of comp against Wlad because its a product of his era and not his fault. You and the rest of your Wlad apologists can try to compare Wlad to Floyd all you want but there is no comparison, none at all WLAD is a heavyweight with undeniable 1 punch KO power. He jabs his way through 1/2 of a fight and refuses to press and annihilate a fighter that has been broken down and beaten 4 rounds prior. He is fragile at best and is protecting a weak chin, he desperately holds within 2ft of his reach and flops around the ring like a fish when pressed in the past... There is no comparison to Mayweather

Vitali is the better fighter and champion he possesses certain intangibles that other great heavyweights have, you never get the sense that Vitali is vulnerable or in trouble, never a look of desperation just a cool relaxed confidence in himself. The only way you ever hear of Vitali getting bet against is because of age and nothing else. Wlads been unraveled and stopped 3x by fighters who were signifigantly less than him, hence no matter what until the day he retires he will always have that label of fragile and chinny and he fights like someone who is protecting those vulnerabilities, nothing wrong with that but in the division he fights in, those arent qualities that people want to see in their Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

I welcome any challenge or debate on who the better brother is, because there is no way in hell Wlad could ever beat Vitali.. Vitali is the best Heavy in the world right now BAR NONE!!!

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What's weak is YOUR BOY shunning real threats to his 0. That's what fucking weak "Oh I'm the greatest of all-time, I'm unbeaten" yeah because he fights guys either outside of their weight classes, past their prime (and he doesn't put them away), he's never unified, and when he is winning a fight he'll coast to the finish line rather than try to either entertain the crowd or stop his opponent.

I'm sorry, but I've had enough of the "the heavyweights are weak" bullshit, I call it bullshit because it is...you can bitch and moan about who Wlad faces all you want to but guess what he's got 1 division to worry about and there aren't all kinds of fighters coming and going through the heavyweight division whereas Floyd could fight anywhere from 140 (perhaps) to 160....yeah I suggest he fight at 160, Duran did it, Leonard did it, Robinson did it, Hearns did it.....I suggest Floyd fight somebody that maybe is a bit bigger than him, that maybe boxes pretty good, that maybe punches pretty hard and why do I request that of him????? Because if he is so fucking sure he's the best then he won't mind proving it.

Meanwhile Wlad and Vitali are nice humble guys, they don't talk shit, they don't act like some wannabe gangster, and they go out and try to prove themselves vs what the heavyweight division has to offer them....they don't have the chance to switch weight classes, they don't have the chance to make "mega fights" with other bonafide super stars....but Floyd does and it is PATHETIC that he hasn't done more

.....end rant

let's get something straight here

vitali's style resembles a chimpanzee swinging his arms wildly about in comparison to floyd's.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

News flash Lyle, the division is weak and I dont care how you justify it, Mayweather is a better fighter in all regards. PFP being a standard albeit fantasy measuring stick that fighters are judged by, Wlad isint even in the same convo with Mayweather, PFP Wlads best wins arent on par with Mayweathers. I dont hold the quality of comp against Wlad because its a product of his era and not his fault. You and the rest of your Wlad apologists can try to compare Wlad to Floyd all you want but there is no comparison, none at all WLAD is a heavyweight with undeniable 1 punch KO power. He jabs his way through 1/2 of a fight and refuses to press and annihilate a fighter that has been broken down and beaten 4 rounds prior. He is fragile at best and is protecting a weak chin, he desperately holds within 2ft of his reach and flops around the ring like a fish when pressed in the past... There is no comparison to Mayweather

Vitali is the better fighter and champion he possesses certain intangibles that other great heavyweights have, you never get the sense that Vitali is vulnerable or in trouble, never a look of desperation just a cool relaxed confidence in himself. The only way you ever hear of Vitali getting bet against is because of age and nothing else. Wlads been unraveled and stopped 3x by fighters who were signifigantly less than him, hence no matter what until the day he retires he will always have that label of fragile and chinny and he fights like someone who is protecting those vulnerabilities, nothing wrong with that but in the division he fights in, those arent qualities that people want to see in their Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

I welcome any challenge or debate on who the better brother is, because there is no way in hell Wlad could ever beat Vitali.. Vitali is the best Heavy in the world right now BAR NONE!!!

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What's weak is YOUR BOY shunning real threats to his 0. That's what fucking weak "Oh I'm the greatest of all-time, I'm unbeaten" yeah because he fights guys either outside of their weight classes, past their prime (and he doesn't put them away), he's never unified, and when he is winning a fight he'll coast to the finish line rather than try to either entertain the crowd or stop his opponent.

I'm sorry, but I've had enough of the "the heavyweights are weak" bullshit, I call it bullshit because it is...you can bitch and moan about who Wlad faces all you want to but guess what he's got 1 division to worry about and there aren't all kinds of fighters coming and going through the heavyweight division whereas Floyd could fight anywhere from 140 (perhaps) to 160....yeah I suggest he fight at 160, Duran did it, Leonard did it, Robinson did it, Hearns did it.....I suggest Floyd fight somebody that maybe is a bit bigger than him, that maybe boxes pretty good, that maybe punches pretty hard and why do I request that of him????? Because if he is so fucking sure he's the best then he won't mind proving it.

Meanwhile Wlad and Vitali are nice humble guys, they don't talk shit, they don't act like some wannabe gangster, and they go out and try to prove themselves vs what the heavyweight division has to offer them....they don't have the chance to switch weight classes, they don't have the chance to make "mega fights" with other bonafide super stars....but Floyd does and it is PATHETIC that he hasn't done more

.....end rant

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Pathetic to be rated PFP#1 best fighter in the world for years, comes back and is at #2, sold over a million PPV with JMM and is the #4 all time grossing PPV fighter in the history of the sport... SOOOO your rant says nothing really substantial Lyle:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Hunter

What is more ironic is it is the same people who rip the Klitchkos for being boring and not aggressive who hide in the rest room for a chance to wipe floyd's a$$.

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Is that a fact, or just a little ditty you've pulled out of your arsehole?

people looking at punch stats only and not the fight? A majority of Vitali's shots were left jabs and up jabs and little hooks. He hardly looked like a lightweight in there throwing mad combos. 90 percent of the stuff he threw were jabs and off variations of them. And it wasn't even someone the caliber of Marquez. If we are gonna put so much on numbers like that we may as well say Malignaggi threw more then them both so lets rank him above.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

I don't think he's a boring fighter, I just feel the quality of his & his brother's opponents (not Chagaev or Arreola who I both thought were good fighters) is often not up to standard.

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Well, unfortunately for the Klitchskos, when they try doing what Floyd does and bring fighters up from the lower weights as opponents, their proposed opponents shiit them selves and run a mile;D

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

News flash Lyle, the division is weak and I dont care how you justify it, Mayweather is a better fighter in all regards. PFP being a standard albeit fantasy measuring stick that fighters are judged by, Wlad isint even in the same convo with Mayweather, PFP Wlads best wins arent on par with Mayweathers. I dont hold the quality of comp against Wlad because its a product of his era and not his fault. You and the rest of your Wlad apologists can try to compare Wlad to Floyd all you want but there is no comparison, none at all WLAD is a heavyweight with undeniable 1 punch KO power. He jabs his way through 1/2 of a fight and refuses to press and annihilate a fighter that has been broken down and beaten 4 rounds prior. He is fragile at best and is protecting a weak chin, he desperately holds within 2ft of his reach and flops around the ring like a fish when pressed in the past... There is no comparison to Mayweather

Vitali is the better fighter and champion he possesses certain intangibles that other great heavyweights have, you never get the sense that Vitali is vulnerable or in trouble, never a look of desperation just a cool relaxed confidence in himself. The only way you ever hear of Vitali getting bet against is because of age and nothing else. Wlads been unraveled and stopped 3x by fighters who were signifigantly less than him, hence no matter what until the day he retires he will always have that label of fragile and chinny and he fights like someone who is protecting those vulnerabilities, nothing wrong with that but in the division he fights in, those arent qualities that people want to see in their Lineal Heavyweight Champion.

I welcome any challenge or debate on who the better brother is, because there is no way in hell Wlad could ever beat Vitali.. Vitali is the best Heavy in the world right now BAR NONE!!!

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What's weak is YOUR BOY shunning real threats to his 0. That's what fucking weak "Oh I'm the greatest of all-time, I'm unbeaten" yeah because he fights guys either outside of their weight classes, past their prime (and he doesn't put them away), he's never unified, and when he is winning a fight he'll coast to the finish line rather than try to either entertain the crowd or stop his opponent.

I'm sorry, but I've had enough of the "the heavyweights are weak" bullshit, I call it bullshit because it is...you can bitch and moan about who Wlad faces all you want to but guess what he's got 1 division to worry about and there aren't all kinds of fighters coming and going through the heavyweight division whereas Floyd could fight anywhere from 140 (perhaps) to 160....yeah I suggest he fight at 160, Duran did it, Leonard did it, Robinson did it, Hearns did it.....I suggest Floyd fight somebody that maybe is a bit bigger than him, that maybe boxes pretty good, that maybe punches pretty hard and why do I request that of him????? Because if he is so fucking sure he's the best then he won't mind proving it.

Meanwhile Wlad and Vitali are nice humble guys, they don't talk shit, they don't act like some wannabe gangster, and they go out and try to prove themselves vs what the heavyweight division has to offer them....they don't have the chance to switch weight classes, they don't have the chance to make "mega fights" with other bonafide super stars....but Floyd does and it is PATHETIC that he hasn't done more

.....end rant

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Leonard started his career at welterweight, and he was way bigger than Floyd. Duran also was a much larger man then Floyd, and I still think FLoyd would still dominate at 160, maybe he will move up in a few years to 154 and 160. He already beat IMO the best 154 pounder when he faced De La Hoya. If Oscar wasn't the best 154 pounder he was right up there.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Where the fuck is your logic coming from? Mayweather did not weigh 168 when he fought Marquez, what are you smoking? Also Arreola shouldn't be anywhere near 250, Mayweather fought a guy in supreme shape, while Vitali fought a guy who looked like he should be entering training camp, not at the end of it. Mayweather didn't throw as many punches, but you look at body rotation and everything, Mayweather was putting more into his punches more often. Mayweather always throws crisp punches, he doesn't throw a lot of punches but he makes as many punches as possible count. That why he almost connected with as many punches as Vitali while throwing less than half as many.

There are plenty of times where both brothers toy with opponents, and also because of their height and size and lack of athleticism(in comparison to Mayweather) there is no way they can get the same rotation on punches. Thats why Lennox Lewis hit harder than either brother, or Tyson, or Tua. Its because they had the ability to put their whole bodies into punches, while Wlad and especially Vitali pummel opponents and frustrate opponents until they steal the guys will to fight but don't have that spark out power.

Floyd fought a guy 8xbetter than Arreola, a guy with speed, counter punching ability, and heart. Floyd showed better everything except power in comparsion to Vitali.

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Can someone please tell me if there is anything wrong with not throwing many punches if you win the fight? I don't think so. There are different styles in boxing. Right? As a boxing fan, you may prefer to watch some styles in comparison to others, but styles are styles.

I think the point is more that Mayweather doesn't throw many punches in a fight for a welterweight and Vitali throws a lot of punches in a fight for a heavyweight. As Taeth and others have pointed out: it makes sense to an extent given that Mayweather is a pure counterpunching defensive fighter and Vitali is a pure offensive fighter. The reason that it is somewhat astonishing is that generally heavyweights throw less punches than welterweights.

To Bilbo, I don't really think that who Mayweather is fighting makes a difference, but I can't find the data to back that up. What I mean is I don't think Mayweather's punching output would change all that much if he fought a boxer with the same style as Arreola. Mayweather will always be a smart defensive fighter who is averse to risk-taking and doesn't use punch volume to win fights.

I also don't think it really has to do with that Mayweather throws cleaner, crisper punches. Because if you don't throw many punches, you have to make the punches you throw count. If you throw many punches, you don't have to exert the same amount of energy making sure each punch is crisp. Style dictates punch output to an extent.

Also, to Taeth, it is much easier to look athletic when you are shorter than when you are taller. Vitali actually is pretty athletic for a guy who is 6'8 and I've seen many guys who are 5'8 that are very athletic.

Marquez may be 8x better than Arreola, but it is not because he has any more heart. Arreola has a ton of that.

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I didn't say Marquez had more heart, but he had everything else way better than Arreola except power, and he had the same amount of heart as Arreola. Also height definitely plays a factor in coordination, but great athletes even tall guys still have great coordination which both brothers don't have(Wladimir Klitschko is still a really good athlete, but not quite elite, elite)

If you need examples you won't find them in boxing but here are a few :Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Shaquille O'neil, etc. these guys are tall, but have the coordination of guys like Mayweather.

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That's a bit of a stretch...

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Pathetic to be rated PFP#1 best fighter in the world for years, comes back and is at #2, sold over a million PPV with JMM and is the #4 all time grossing PPV fighter in the history of the sport... SOOOO your rant says nothing really substantial Lyle:rolleyes:

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So if Vitali fought Bernard Hopkins AT HEAVYWEIGHT and whipped the crap out of him you'd give him credit? That's essentially what Floyd did by beating Marquez. Or maybe if Wladimir fought Tomaz Adamek at heavyweight he'd get credit for beating him?

Here's your chance to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you're no hypocrit...all you have to do is say "Yes I would give them full credit"....please be my guest and explain why I should even consider Floyd as a P4P best when he beat up a featherweight who hadn't even proven himself vs the best lightweights much less junior welters or welterweights.

Oh but he's Floyd 'Money' Mayweather, he's brash and irreverant and he's flashy on TV so it doesn't matter who Floyd fights or at what weight he fights anyone, it's only THAT he fights and that he acts like a total jackass, that's why we should bow down before him as the greatest of all time :rolleyes:

I have no problem showering compliments down on Floyd's skill, he's amazing, outstanding, terrific....but does he challenge himself??? Does he try to challenge himself?? Has he set out to prove he is deserving of the title as the Greatest of all time???? NO, NO, and NO. He's just a good fighter....Manny Pacquiao's wins over De la Hoya and Hatton (although they happened after Floyd beat those guys) were much more impressive because Manny moved up in weight and challenged himself vs the best 140 had to offer at the time and a very big albeit weight drained De la Hoya....and he stopped both of them.

See unlike you Floyd "fans" I think Floyd could beat Paul Williams, I would rather Floyd get KTFO, but I think he'd prove a lot fighting and beating the BIGGER guys and the guys who are solid threats, I think Pavlik is HUGE but he's slow and easy to hit, I think Cotto may not have rebounded from the loss to Margarito, I think Shane doesn't have the style ot beat Floyd, but will he fight those guys? Nope, he wouldn't even consider it because he's a punk....he's talented, but he's a little punk

Has Floyd ever been in a FOTY?

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Originally Posted by Kel

Has Floyd ever been in a FOTY?

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floyd's been in plenty of entertaining fights. he brawled with augustus, chavez, ndou and corley and beat them up. his one-sided clinics are enjoyable as well, unlike wlad's relentless jabbing(which aren't clinics anyway)

the baldomir fight was an exception. not one of his better performances