I must have missed it, but what do you have against Bute? I will probably regret I asked but I need the laugh.
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I must have missed it, but what do you have against Bute? I will probably regret I asked but I need the laugh.
Actually nothing to do with him personally, he's a very talented fighter imo.
It was just the Ring's ridiculous decision to rate him as the world's best Super Middleweight ahead of Ward, Froch, Abraham and Kessler.
Clearly this is Golden Boy's doing, the other 168 lb champs are fighting on Showtime, a rival network to HBO, Oscar's cash buddies so they make the one super middleweight of any merit who actually fights on HBO against Andrade the number 1 at the weight.
It's crap. Andre Ward beat, nay demolished the number 1 fighter in Kessler and by rights is clearly number 1. Carl Froch for all his faults has consecutive wins over current world champ Jean Pascal, former undisputed champ Jermain Taylor and a close win over Andre Dirrell. Those wins rate above Bute's also.
I can see Bute being at number 3 but number 1 is just a fix.
What I find bizarre is the inconsistencies in the Rings voting structure since Golden Boy took over. Before I used to agree with them almost always, now their votes are political it seems.
Nonito Donaire is still shamefully number 6 in the world, yet he has only ever fought one single world rated opponent, and that two years ago.
Andre Ward beat Kessler, who I reckon most would agree is as good as Vic Darchinyan more or less, and he did it now, so on that logic he should be in the p4p too if Donaire is there. Yet he's not even number one in his own division according to them.
Of course I don't think Andre Ward should be p4p it's just the strange logic I don't understand.
I blame Oscar De La Hoya.
it's obvious, he's not Froch :rolleyes: lolQuote:
Originally Posted by amat
Actually both Amat and myself before the Super Six started publicly voted for Andre Ward to win the tournament ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesit's obvious, he's not Froch :rolleyes: lolQuote:
Originally Posted by amat
For what its worth, I've said some of the same things about him
I agree that he isn't the number 1 Super Middleweight, but i just think people are going over board. Because i don't think hardly anyone thought Librado Andrade would ever be KO'ed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
He was considered to be un KO'able if that even makes sense. But as i told you Bilbo he still does have some underrated win, although he lacks a big win over a well known name.
Im actually gutted he isn't in the Super Six, i've liked Lucian Bute for atleast 2 years now. And i think he should of been in the tournament over Jermain Taylor, it would of been a much better tournament IMO.
And personally i feel sorry for Lucian Bute, that he's going to have to wait until 2011 to get a big fight against any of the super six. He actually might be forced to move up because theres only Denis Inkin and ETC.
You're all clearly racist.
I quite like Bute, you won't hear me say nothing wrong about him and I will state it again: if he fights Froch, he'll dismantle him.
Thus said, ranking him #1 is a superb honor and something superbly silly too. I would rate him third, behind Abraham and Ward personally. Hopefully he'll fight Pavlik and then one of the top 3 of the tournament.
And Bilbo: Bute is not promoted one second by Golden Boy. 100% copyright material to Interbox for almost 2 more years.
I like Bute's use the body shot.
Who does he fight next? Assuming Hopkins doesn't happen...
Hbo wants Pavlik, so does Interbox so it's perhaps the next logical showdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Sucks for Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessHbo wants Pavlik, so does Interbox so it's perhaps the next logical showdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
It's always been flawed. The Ring ignored their own history when restarting the ratings around 2001. So didn't recognise the flyweight linage, ignored Michalczewski's lightheavy linage to award it to Jones and broke it's own rules to make Vitali-Sanders for the Ring belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It's just less crap overall than the alphabets. ;)
It sounds like your beef is with Ring magazine, not Bute. Bute is not overrated. Bute hasn't dodged anyone and has fought tough opponents. He doesn't receive too much attention, outside of Canada most people haven't heard of him and it's not like he is HBO or Golden Boy's wonder child - he only just had his first fight on HBO and has a long contract with a Canadian promoter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
FYI - Espn.com ranks Bute number 2 behind Ward now.
I'd pick Bute, Andrade, and Bika to beat Froch right now. Big statement I know. That's not to say Froch doesn't deserve to be ranked where he is because he definitely does. I like Froch's guts and willingness to put it one the line.
Although I can see the logic with Froch and Ward, I don't see how anyone can rank Abraham or Kessler above Bute right now.
I think Bute's lofty ranking is an overreaction to beating Andrade too. Kessler beat Andrade easy. Bute was virtually knocked out before putting the record straight.
I don't think Andrade would beat anyone in the Super Six.
Abraham would blast him to bits. Taylor (even a near finished version) would outbox him. Dirrell and Ward would make him look like a complete lumbering slowcoach and Froch would look slick against him (Froch slick ;D).
Bute is without doubt a top supermiddle but his win over Andrade doesn't get him above the Super Six boys. Even though I think he could beat a few of them.
Bute beat Andrade easily too - both times. Just the first time was only for 10 rounds. The last two rounds shouldn't take away from how good Bute looked for 5/6 of the fight. Kessler couldn't knock Andrade out, Bute did. No other smw has two wins over current top ten opponents. That is why Bute enjoys a lofty rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh come on. Really? Froch would beat Andrade? Bika and Andrade over Froch. I'll change my tune if Froch beats Kessler. Seriously though, Froch and slick can't ever be in the same paragraph, let alone sentence.
Kessler beat Andrade so easily a return couldn't even be considered, yet Bute was almost knocked out so had to rematch him. Big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratBute beat Andrade easily too - both times. Just the first time was only for 10 rounds. The last two rounds shouldn't take away from how good Bute looked for 5/6 of the fight. Kessler couldn't knock Andrade out, Bute did. No other smw has two wins over current top ten opponents. That is why Bute enjoys a lofty rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh come on. Really? Froch would beat Andrade? Bika and Andrade over Froch. I'll change my tune if Froch beats Kessler. Seriously though, Froch and slick can't ever be in the same paragraph, let alone sentence.
Bute's top ten wins - Bika and Andrade.
Come on, that form is not better than Froch taking out unbeaten Pascal (current lightheavy champ), Taylor and unbeaten Dirrell.
Kessler lost to Ward but already has beaten Bute's best opponent, and has better wins than Bika on his record. Ward could be special. Kessler shouldn't be kicked behind guys with lesser form because of that loss.
So.. Ward beat THE man, Kessler and Froch have better form than Bute. At least three guys should be in front of him on the form book ;)
As I said at the start of the thread I think Bute is talented and have nothing against him, he's just not number 1.
Andre Ward beat the man, he HAS to be number 1 if the Ring is going to have any credibility.
Froch must be two for wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell.
I have no problem with Bute being at 3, considering the one sided nature of Kessler's loss, and Abraham has only one fight at the weight.
It's funny how Bika was considered a joke opponent for Joe Calzaghe yet he's a monster on Bute's resume.
Froch beats Bika and Andrade handily imo. He looked bad against Dirrell and Taylor, two of the fastest, slickest fighters in the game, but he certainly looked better for the most part than Andrade did against both Bute and Kessler.
Froch is a tough man, he has flaws for sure, but he's got three very impressive names on his record in back to back fights and deserves respect, and the number two spot for that.
anyone ever stood infront of a mirror with there cock behind their legs pretending to be a woman before......
`cause i sure havent ;D;D;D
Listen, ranking Bute behind Ward and Froch makes sense, I won't deny that. But, ranking him behind Kessler makes no sense. The whole argument about Ward ranking above Bute, however, hinges on the fact that Ward beat "the man" in Kessler. My point is that Kessler may just not be "the man" we all thought him to be. And while I like Kessler a lot, a lot, we can all agree now Kessler was overrated, he has lost everytime he has stepped in the ring against opponents who can move. Kessler's biggest wins are over Andrade and Mundine. We can also agree that if Froch beats Kessler, the Kessler being "the man" argument goes out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterKessler beat Andrade so easily a return couldn't even be considered, yet Bute was almost knocked out so had to rematch him. Big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratBute beat Andrade easily too - both times. Just the first time was only for 10 rounds. The last two rounds shouldn't take away from how good Bute looked for 5/6 of the fight. Kessler couldn't knock Andrade out, Bute did. No other smw has two wins over current top ten opponents. That is why Bute enjoys a lofty rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh come on. Really? Froch would beat Andrade? Bika and Andrade over Froch. I'll change my tune if Froch beats Kessler. Seriously though, Froch and slick can't ever be in the same paragraph, let alone sentence.
Bute's top ten wins - Bika and Andrade.
Come on, that form is not better than Froch taking out unbeaten Pascal (current lightheavy champ), Taylor and unbeaten Dirrell.
Kessler lost to Ward but already has beaten Bute's best opponent, and has better wins than Bika on his record. Ward could be special. Kessler shouldn't be kicked behind guys with lesser form because of that loss.
So.. Ward beat THE man, Kessler and Froch have better form than Bute. At least three guys should be in front of him on the form book ;)
Bute's best wins are over Andrade twice and Bika, easily comparable. Bute has never lost; Kessler has lost twice. Bute looked invincible his last time out, stopping the durable, never-stopped-before Andrade (with a body shot I might add), Kessler looked horrible, a complete inability to adjust and incredibly plodding, losing practically every single round against Ward. Say what you want about his first fight with Andrade, but at least there Bute won 10 of 12 rounds.
Anyway, this will be decided soon enough because Bute will continue to win and Kessler, well, we'll just have to see...If Kessler loses to Froch and Ward beats Taylor, Froch should be ranked number 1, Bute number 2, and Ward number three. Ward beats Green, who replaces Taylor, and he should be ranked number one regardless. Kessler beats Froch, Ward beats Green, it should be Ward, Kessler, Bute, and then Froch. Sorry for the tangent. That's what too much coffee does in the morning.
Can we also all agree that Froch got a gift against Dirrell? I hated Dirrell's style that night, but Froch looked horrible in his win. It's a win, I know, but barely, just like Bute's was over Andrade the first time really, but at least Bute won 10 rounds.
So you rate his wins over Andrade and Bika, higher than you rate Froch's wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratBute beat Andrade easily too - both times. Just the first time was only for 10 rounds. The last two rounds shouldn't take away from how good Bute looked for 5/6 of the fight. Kessler couldn't knock Andrade out, Bute did. No other smw has two wins over current top ten opponents. That is why Bute enjoys a lofty rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh come on. Really? Froch would beat Andrade? Bika and Andrade over Froch. I'll change my tune if Froch beats Kessler. Seriously though, Froch and slick can't ever be in the same paragraph, let alone sentence.
No, Froch has done his thing, and I admire his desire to the fight the best. He's gritty and tough. And if he wouldn't speak publicly, I would have no problem whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoSo you rate his wins over Andrade and Bika, higher than you rate Froch's wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratBute beat Andrade easily too - both times. Just the first time was only for 10 rounds. The last two rounds shouldn't take away from how good Bute looked for 5/6 of the fight. Kessler couldn't knock Andrade out, Bute did. No other smw has two wins over current top ten opponents. That is why Bute enjoys a lofty rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Oh come on. Really? Froch would beat Andrade? Bika and Andrade over Froch. I'll change my tune if Froch beats Kessler. Seriously though, Froch and slick can't ever be in the same paragraph, let alone sentence.
Lol, speaking isn't his strong point.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratNo, Froch has done his thing, and I admire his desire to the fight the best. He's gritty and tough. And if he wouldn't speak publicly, I would have no problem whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoSo you rate his wins over Andrade and Bika, higher than you rate Froch's wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I have to agree with Bil with regards to HBO/ Showtime and Golden Boy. It all seems like a load of bollocks to be honest. How the fuck is Bute number one, when a) he doesn't have a belt b) has never beaten a former champion and c) is for Canadian ???
Riddiculous :(
He doesn't have a belt ? he won the IBF title off Alejandro Berrio, and has made 4 title defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Oh yeah :(
Im not having a good day.
It was a shitty belt though. Berrio was supposed to be an 'opponent' for Robert Steiglizt to win a vacant strap but Steiglitz chin ain't the best and he got knocked out, so Berrio picks up a suprise vacant strap, that was about as respected as the belt won by Lovemore N'dou against Ben Rabah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Berrio was just a Carlos Maussa, or Lovemore N'dou type boxer, nothing special decent puncher, Bute stopped him in the 11th I believe which is nothing more than any of the top 10 would have done.
He then fought an old William Joppy and trial horse Fulgencio Zuniga in between bouts with former title challenger runner up Andrade.
He's not beaten anybody of significance yet. Andrade and Bika are ok wins but that's it.
It's funny Ice goes on about Bika and Kalambay being impressive wins on Bute's resume but he criticises Calzaghe for even taking those easy fights.
Meanwhile he demands the 22 year old Amir Khan steps up and starts fighting credible opposition, with his win over Hall of Fame legend Barrera meaning nothing.
Bute is a decent fighter, he may prove himself to be very very good, but he's not acomplished it yet. Ward and Froch have to be above him.
How many times have you seen Berrio Bilbo? ;D A lot of people picked Berrio to beat Bute and before he was just an 'opponent' for Stieglitz (which definitely wasn't the case), he had just given the kiss of death to another top prospect at the time, Yusaf Mack. He's not bad and even if him and Zuniga aren't huge names, Bute dispatched of both in fairly spectacular fashion. Berrio very much so.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...buteberrio.gif
I agree that Bute shouldn't be number 1 but I can see why the Ring ranked him ahead of Ward. He's been in the top 5 for like 2/3 years now while Ward just entered and really only has 2 notable wins to his credit. Miranda/Kessler may match up favorably with Bute's Bika/Andrade but Ward doesn't have the wins beyond that to compare to Bute's.
I think Bute is clearly one of the top 2 fighters in the division and obviously the best outside of the tournament. 3 is fair, 2 I'm not going to complain as Froch is shit (fact.) and number 1 is probably excessive but I don't think just because Golden Boy happens to have a relationship with HBO.
How many people still read the Ring? Their is still some DLH-bashing going on in there, I don't think it's fair to write them off as crooked just because Oscar owns them.
Amat I have already made up my mind that I am correct and deliberately didn't pay attention when I read your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Bilbo how many times have i told you ? Joe Calzaghe was fighting those fighters at the end of his career, where as Lucian Bute was fighting those fighters when he an upcoming contender, theres a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboIt was a shitty belt though. Berrio was supposed to be an 'opponent' for Robert Steiglizt to win a vacant strap but Steiglitz chin ain't the best and he got knocked out, so Berrio picks up a suprise vacant strap, that was about as respected as the belt won by Lovemore N'dou against Ben Rabah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Berrio was just a Carlos Maussa, or Lovemore N'dou type boxer, nothing special decent puncher, Bute stopped him in the 11th I believe which is nothing more than any of the top 10 would have done.
He then fought an old William Joppy and trial horse Fulgencio Zuniga in between bouts with former title challenger runner up Andrade.
He's not beaten anybody of significance yet. Andrade and Bika are ok wins but that's it.
It's funny Ice goes on about Bika and Kalambay being impressive wins on Bute's resume but he criticises Calzaghe for even taking those easy fights.
Meanwhile he demands the 22 year old Amir Khan steps up and starts fighting credible opposition, with his win over Hall of Fame legend Barrera meaning nothing.
Bute is a decent fighter, he may prove himself to be very very good, but he's not acomplished it yet. Ward and Froch have to be above him.
And no one had heard of Sakio Bika when he was fighting Joe Calzaghe, most people were calling the fight a joke. Yes i do think Sakio Bika is not a bad opponent, he's a difficult fighter like Kabary Salem.
Which makes it look more impressive for Lucian Bute, that he beat Sakio Bika more convincingly than Joe Calzaghe, and he also stopped a fighter that has never been stopped and dropped Joe Calzaghe like a sack of potatoes, aka Kabary Salem.
And yes his win over MAB does mean nothing, MAB had looked crap in warm up fights, he was seriously cut in one of those fights. And it shouldn't of even have been a win for Amir Khan, he headbutted MAB and it should of been stopped within 4 rounds, yet they stopped it just after the 4th round to give Amir Khan the win what a load of crap that was, it truly was a farce.
Lucian Bute has beaten some good contenders, and i seriously don't think you know much about some of these opponents. Fulgencio Zuniga floored Kelly Pavlik and gave him all he could handle, and was only stopped on cuts, and he was never off his feet vs Kelly Pavlik. Yet Lucian Bute stops a fighter that's never been stopped except on cuts, i remember it being on cuts i could be wrong though, but anyway he stops a very tough opponent in only 4 rounds and thats not impressive ?
As for Alejandro Berrio many people picked him to beat Lucian Bute, he almost had a 100 percent KO record, he was coming off two impressive wins vs Yusak Mack, Robert Stieglitz, and Lucian Bute stops him in very brutal fashion which was impressive.
Lucian Bute has been impressive he's beaten some very solid contenders, and unlike Amir Khan has fought punchers that can take your lights out.
Do you agree that all Ward has done is beat Kessler? And that there is a chance, better now than ever before, that Kessler was simply overrated? If Froch beats Kessler, why shouldn't Bute be ranked above Ward?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboIt was a shitty belt though. Berrio was supposed to be an 'opponent' for Robert Steiglizt to win a vacant strap but Steiglitz chin ain't the best and he got knocked out, so Berrio picks up a suprise vacant strap, that was about as respected as the belt won by Lovemore N'dou against Ben Rabah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Berrio was just a Carlos Maussa, or Lovemore N'dou type boxer, nothing special decent puncher, Bute stopped him in the 11th I believe which is nothing more than any of the top 10 would have done.
He then fought an old William Joppy and trial horse Fulgencio Zuniga in between bouts with former title challenger runner up Andrade.
He's not beaten anybody of significance yet. Andrade and Bika are ok wins but that's it.
It's funny Ice goes on about Bika and Kalambay being impressive wins on Bute's resume but he criticises Calzaghe for even taking those easy fights.
Meanwhile he demands the 22 year old Amir Khan steps up and starts fighting credible opposition, with his win over Hall of Fame legend Barrera meaning nothing.
Bute is a decent fighter, he may prove himself to be very very good, but he's not acomplished it yet. Ward and Froch have to be above him.
If Froch beats Kessler then Froch is definitely above Bute. Kessler has some good wins, he beat Mundine which is a bigger name than anything on Bute's resume. He beat Andrade much easier than Bute did, at least first time around. He destroyed Markus Beyer who outside of Calzaghe and Sven Ottke was the longest reigning super middleweight champ out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratDo you agree that all Ward has done is beat Kessler? And that there is a chance, better now than ever before, that Kessler was simply overrated? If Froch beats Kessler, why shouldn't Bute be ranked above Ward?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboIt was a shitty belt though. Berrio was supposed to be an 'opponent' for Robert Steiglizt to win a vacant strap but Steiglitz chin ain't the best and he got knocked out, so Berrio picks up a suprise vacant strap, that was about as respected as the belt won by Lovemore N'dou against Ben Rabah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Berrio was just a Carlos Maussa, or Lovemore N'dou type boxer, nothing special decent puncher, Bute stopped him in the 11th I believe which is nothing more than any of the top 10 would have done.
He then fought an old William Joppy and trial horse Fulgencio Zuniga in between bouts with former title challenger runner up Andrade.
He's not beaten anybody of significance yet. Andrade and Bika are ok wins but that's it.
It's funny Ice goes on about Bika and Kalambay being impressive wins on Bute's resume but he criticises Calzaghe for even taking those easy fights.
Meanwhile he demands the 22 year old Amir Khan steps up and starts fighting credible opposition, with his win over Hall of Fame legend Barrera meaning nothing.
Bute is a decent fighter, he may prove himself to be very very good, but he's not acomplished it yet. Ward and Froch have to be above him.
He also fought a very competitive fight with Joe Calzaghe, who was awarded the Ring belt, the only super middleweight to receive it I believe.
Ward's win over Miranda is as big as anything Bute has done, and a win over Kessler clearly surpasses anything he has achieved.
Froch's wins over Taylor, Dirrell and reigning 175 champ Pascal all top anything Bute has done.
Bute simply hasn't been tested against A grade opposition yet. Doesn't mean he might not have the goods, but you don't rate a division according to predictions but rather by acomplishments.
And on acomplishments Bute cannot be higher than 3.