The most mediocre world champion of the last ten years...

I keep hearing people say Kotelnik was the most mediocre champion in recent history in relation to Khan beating him. So it got me thinking. Kotelnik isn't great, but i can think of far worse...even at 140 i can think of a good few. So i think we need a list. Say, since the year 2000.

My list probably won't be as good as others but i'm giving it a go...

1: Carlos Maussa
2: Nikolay Valuev
3: Soulemane M'Baye
4: Gavin Rees
5: Enzo Macarinelli
6: Alex Arthur
7: Vivain Harris
8: Kassim Ouma
9: Carlos Baldomir
10: Giacobbe Fragomeni

There will be plenty of others. There's been some really shit world champions.

i dunno about Ouma, he was a decent fighter and gave Taylor fits

but the rest are about right, funny though you make the thread trying to say that Kotelnik wasn't complete garbage, but who'd he win the title from? ohh right the shit that is Reese, Kotelnik's biggest win was a gift decision against Maidana

oh and Fana (spelling) and Raheem deserve to be on that list

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i dunno about Ouma, he was a decent fighter and gave Taylor fits

but the rest are about right, funny though you make the thread trying to say that Kotelnik wasn't complete garbage, but who'd he win the title from? ohh right the shit that is Reese, Kotelnik's biggest win was a gift decision against Maidana

oh and Fana (spelling) and Raheem deserve to be on that list

---

Gift decision? Close fight maybe, gift decision - hell no.

Kotelnik had a similar fight (altho boring) against Junior Witter, which Witter got the nod in. Both fights that could have gone either way.

The thing with Kotelnik is, that technically speaking he is very sound. His main problem is his work-rate. Khan's win over him, for me, was good because he practically boxed his head off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i dunno about Ouma, he was a decent fighter and gave Taylor fits

but the rest are about right, funny though you make the thread trying to say that Kotelnik wasn't complete garbage, but who'd he win the title from? ohh right the shit that is Reese, Kotelnik's biggest win was a gift decision against Maidana

oh and Fana (spelling) and Raheem deserve to be on that list

---

Gift decision? Close fight maybe, gift decision - hell no.

Kotelnik had a similar fight (altho boring) against Junior Witter, which Witter got the nod in. Both fights that could have gone either way.

The thing with Kotelnik is, that technically speaking he is very sound. His main problem is his work-rate. Khan's win over him, for me, was good because he practically boxed his head off.

---

i had Maidana winning 116-112, not that close

and beating Witter doesn't really say much, and dropping a decision to him says even less, i've said it time, and time again Junior Witter is garbage, hell you could go ahead and add him to your list of mediocre champions

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i dunno about Ouma, he was a decent fighter and gave Taylor fits

but the rest are about right, funny though you make the thread trying to say that Kotelnik wasn't complete garbage, but who'd he win the title from? ohh right the shit that is Reese, Kotelnik's biggest win was a gift decision against Maidana

oh and Fana (spelling) and Raheem deserve to be on that list

---

Gift decision? Close fight maybe, gift decision - hell no.

Kotelnik had a similar fight (altho boring) against Junior Witter, which Witter got the nod in. Both fights that could have gone either way.

The thing with Kotelnik is, that technically speaking he is very sound. His main problem is his work-rate. Khan's win over him, for me, was good because he practically boxed his head off.

---

i had Maidana winning 116-112, not that close

and beating Witter doesn't really say much, and dropping a decision to him says even less, i've said it time, and time again Junior Witter is garbage, hell you could go ahead and add him to your list of mediocre champions

---

It was close. The fact that you had Maidana winning and the 2 judges had Kotelnik winning suggests it was close. Boxing News (imo the most reliable source for fight coverage) had it a draw i think.

If your result against Witter counts for a lot, then Tim Bradley's up there aswell.

Evidently, here's a phrase that doesn't sound so appealing:

''And The New, Wba Light-welter-weight Champion Of The World...'' :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimboogie

Evidently, here's a phrase that doesn't sound so appealing:

''And The New, Wba Light-welter-weight Champion Of The World...'' :(

---

140 was so 2005.

:D

The Heavyweight division was so 20th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Gift decision? Close fight maybe, gift decision - hell no.

Kotelnik had a similar fight (altho boring) against Junior Witter, which Witter got the nod in. Both fights that could have gone either way.

The thing with Kotelnik is, that technically speaking he is very sound. His main problem is his work-rate. Khan's win over him, for me, was good because he practically boxed his head off.

---

i had Maidana winning 116-112, not that close

and beating Witter doesn't really say much, and dropping a decision to him says even less, i've said it time, and time again Junior Witter is garbage, hell you could go ahead and add him to your list of mediocre champions

---

It was close. The fact that you had Maidana winning and the 2 judges had Kotelnik winning suggests it was close. Boxing News (imo the most reliable source for fight coverage) had it a draw i think.

If your result against Witter counts for a lot, then Tim Bradley's up there aswell.

---

difference is Bradley's beaten Holt, and was schooling Campbell until the headbutt

Gavin Rees wins , he was garbage.

So far Kelly Pavlik is a pretty mediocre world champion.

doesn't really count, but if Matthew Hatton captured the IBO (which he didn't, thankfully) he would go straight on my list. :p

One champion i've never really respected due to lack of never leaving Germany and the amount of decisions he took was Sven Ottke :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

So far Kelly Pavlik is a pretty mediocre world champion.

---

Beating Taylor twice isn't what I call mediocre.. but I guess after that his two wins have came from poor opposition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i had Maidana winning 116-112, not that close

and beating Witter doesn't really say much, and dropping a decision to him says even less, i've said it time, and time again Junior Witter is garbage, hell you could go ahead and add him to your list of mediocre champions

---

It was close. The fact that you had Maidana winning and the 2 judges had Kotelnik winning suggests it was close. Boxing News (imo the most reliable source for fight coverage) had it a draw i think.

If your result against Witter counts for a lot, then Tim Bradley's up there aswell.

---

difference is Bradley's beaten Holt, and was schooling Campbell until the headbutt

---

I think Bradley is quality and off a nice run over last 4 and yet again going in against top challenger in Peterson next.Premature ending vs Campbell but you could see adjustments.Problem is he has all the charisma and big fan appeal of plain dry toast and bares a slight resemblance to Bushwick Bill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeyUK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

So far Kelly Pavlik is a pretty mediocre world champion.

---

Beating Taylor twice isn't what I call mediocre.. but I guess after that his two wins have came from poor opposition.

---

Yes he is a pretty crappy champion and besides beating Taylor the 1st time he fought him in a non title bout at 166 so as far as reigns go he sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeyUK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

So far Kelly Pavlik is a pretty mediocre world champion.

---

Beating Taylor twice isn't what I call mediocre.. but I guess after that his two wins have came from poor opposition.

---

Yes he is a pretty crappy champion and besides beating Taylor the 1st time he fought him in a non title bout at 166 so as far as reigns go he sucks.

---

aside from Sturm, who was there for him to fight? i mean come 2010 he has options, there Williams, Martinez, Mora, and well Sturm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeyUK

Beating Taylor twice isn't what I call mediocre.. but I guess after that his two wins have came from poor opposition.

---

Yes he is a pretty crappy champion and besides beating Taylor the 1st time he fought him in a non title bout at 166 so as far as reigns go he sucks.

---

aside from Sturm, who was there for him to fight? i mean come 2010 he has options, there Williams, Martinez, Mora, and well Sturm

---

Arthur Abraham, Winky Wright, Felix Sturm, Paul Williams and those options have been there for a while now. I hope 2010 he mans up and fights someone in the top 5.

You can add Hasim Rahman, Shannon Briggs, Paul Malinaggi,

ummmm JOHN RUIZ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

Yes he is a pretty crappy champion and besides beating Taylor the 1st time he fought him in a non title bout at 166 so as far as reigns go he sucks.

---

aside from Sturm, who was there for him to fight? i mean come 2010 he has options, there Williams, Martinez, Mora, and well Sturm

---

Arthur Abraham, Winky Wright, Felix Sturm, Paul Williams and those options have been there for a while now. I hope 2010 he mans up and fights someone in the top 5.

---

Abraham is now at 168, Winky went idle for over a year and Williams beat the snot out of him, and Williams has just stepped up to 160, can't really knock Pavlik (besides for his BS reason of pulling out of the Williams fight), to his credit aside from Rubio (who was rated in the top 10) and now Espino, Hopkins has fought Taylor and Hopkins since winning the title, the main thing that's killed his career up to now is that is his inactivity, don't forget that before winning the title he also KO'd Zertuche and Miranda in impressive fashion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon09

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

aside from Sturm, who was there for him to fight? i mean come 2010 he has options, there Williams, Martinez, Mora, and well Sturm

---

Arthur Abraham, Winky Wright, Felix Sturm, Paul Williams and those options have been there for a while now. I hope 2010 he mans up and fights someone in the top 5.

---

Abraham is now at 168, Winky went idle for over a year and Williams beat the snot out of him, and Williams has just stepped up to 160, can't really knock Pavlik (besides for his BS reason of pulling out of the Williams fight), to his credit aside from Rubio (who was rated in the top 10) and now Espino, Hopkins has fought Taylor and Hopkins since winning the title, the main thing that's killed his career up to now is that is his inactivity, don't forget that before winning the title he also KO'd Zertuche and Miranda in impressive fashion

---

AA had been sitting in the middleweight division longer then Pavlik and decided to move up because he was not getting any shot at him. Wright had been calling out Pavlik for sometime before deciding to go up and fight Hopkins and now the Williams fight has been scrapped again. Since he has won the belt he has not fought the whos who of the middleweights and has not taken on a credible fighter since the Taylor rematch. And keep in mind that this thread is titled mediocre world champion which as of now fits Pavlik perfectly.

Eric Aiken, Sergei Lyakowich come to mind

Since 2000... Man I can give you more then 10. ;D
Does Interim count?
Some of these might be Interim

1st name that comes to mind Sultan Ibragimov...

After that:
Kelvin Davis
Michelle Piccirillo
Beibis Mendoza
Valery Brudov
Malcom Tunacao
Carlos Baldomir
Alejandro Berrio
Manny Siaca
Maselino Masoe
Javier Jauregui
David Diaz

Pick any one of the latest S. African fighters St. Clair, Baloyi, Klassen...

Fuck I can't remember his name right now but he's the only Mongolian ever to win a title. Fuck I can't remember his name and I can picture him and he has a pretty easy/simple name. (Not a common name but simple)
:furious2: Fuck I can't remember... Anyways him. ;D

Sebastian Sylvester

Joe Calzaghe LOL!;D;) No Gavin Rees is easy number 1 on this list for mediocre World champs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i had Maidana winning 116-112, not that close

and beating Witter doesn't really say much, and dropping a decision to him says even less, i've said it time, and time again Junior Witter is garbage, hell you could go ahead and add him to your list of mediocre champions

---

It was close. The fact that you had Maidana winning and the 2 judges had Kotelnik winning suggests it was close. Boxing News (imo the most reliable source for fight coverage) had it a draw i think.

If your result against Witter counts for a lot, then Tim Bradley's up there aswell.

---

difference is Bradley's beaten Holt, and was schooling Campbell until the headbutt

---

Great. What's Holt ever done? Headbutted Torres to defeat. That's literally it.

What does Nate Campbell have in his arsenal that makes beating him seem such a great achievement? Especially at 140?

All Campbell has is a surprise close win over Juan Diaz - who again has a history of being in very close fights against mediocre - but marketable fighters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

It was close. The fact that you had Maidana winning and the 2 judges had Kotelnik winning suggests it was close. Boxing News (imo the most reliable source for fight coverage) had it a draw i think.

If your result against Witter counts for a lot, then Tim Bradley's up there aswell.

---

difference is Bradley's beaten Holt, and was schooling Campbell until the headbutt

---

Great. What's Holt ever done? Headbutted Torres to defeat. That's literally it.

What does Nate Campbell have in his arsenal that makes beating him seem such a great achievement? Especially at 140?

All Campbell has is a surprise close win over Juan Diaz - who again has a history of being in very close fights against mediocre - but marketable fighters.

---

Holt also has wins over the bum that is David Diaz (if he's considered a "big win" for Manny why not for the first guy to do it), Hlatshwayo (a good solid fighter), Arnaoutis (need i say more? lol), and D-Hop

as for Campbell, did you forget that he also beat Ali Funeka? the same Funeka he dropped like a bag of bricks twice, and the same Funeka that basically dominated the undefeated Joan Guzman, and possibly the #1 or #2 guy at 135 now that Marquez has evidently left lightweight, don't try to change history cause come fight night most people had Campbell on their p4p lists and viewed the fight as a 50/50 fight, and IMO if it weren't for the headbutt Bradley still would have stopped him late

Gotta disagree with Gavin Rees being a shit world champ, after all he's basiclly a lightweight and beat a naturally bigger man to win his title.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

difference is Bradley's beaten Holt, and was schooling Campbell until the headbutt

---

Great. What's Holt ever done? Headbutted Torres to defeat. That's literally it.

What does Nate Campbell have in his arsenal that makes beating him seem such a great achievement? Especially at 140?

All Campbell has is a surprise close win over Juan Diaz - who again has a history of being in very close fights against mediocre - but marketable fighters.

---

Holt also has wins over the bum that is David Diaz (if he's considered a "big win" for Manny why not for the first guy to do it), Hlatshwayo (a good solid fighter), Arnaoutis (need i say more? lol), and D-Hop

as for Campbell, did you forget that he also beat Ali Funeka? the same Funeka he dropped like a bag of bricks twice, and the same Funeka that basically dominated the undefeated Joan Guzman, and possibly the #1 or #2 guy at 135 now that Marquez has evidently left lightweight, don't try to change history cause come fight night most people had Campbell on their p4p lists and viewed the fight as a 50/50 fight, and IMO if it weren't for the headbutt Bradley still would have stopped him late

---

Most people had Nate Campbell on their p4p lists? Are you joking?

He probably would have stopped him, because Nate Campbell isn't a strong welterweight. The fight with Bradley was clear evidence of that.

Even Joan Guzman is a fighter who blows hot and cold. Infront of the right opposition he looks fantastic, but equally he's capable of looking crap. And again, he's another fighter who hasn't beaten anybody that's worthy of all the hype he's had on here over the last few years.

The David Diaz point...i don't think anybody saw Manny's win as 'big' it was more a case of seeing if Manny could take his power up with him. Would you say that Hlatshwayo, Mighty Mike and D-Hop are any better than Kotelnik? If so, why?

It's a never ending cycle. People have said they'd give Khan credit for beating Maidana, Holt, Campbell, Paulie etc... when none of them have done anything to suggest they are any better than Kotelnik (who he got little credit for beating).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

difference is Bradley's beaten Holt, and was schooling Campbell until the headbutt

---

Great. What's Holt ever done? Headbutted Torres to defeat. That's literally it.

What does Nate Campbell have in his arsenal that makes beating him seem such a great achievement? Especially at 140?

All Campbell has is a surprise close win over Juan Diaz - who again has a history of being in very close fights against mediocre - but marketable fighters.

---

Holt also has wins over the bum that is David Diaz (if he's considered a "big win" for Manny why not for the first guy to do it), Hlatshwayo (a good solid fighter), Arnaoutis (need i say more? lol), and D-Hop

as for Campbell, did you forget that he also beat Ali Funeka? the same Funeka he dropped like a bag of bricks twice, and the same Funeka that basically dominated the undefeated Joan Guzman, and possibly the #1 or #2 guy at 135 now that Marquez has evidently left lightweight, don't try to change history cause come fight night most people had Campbell on their p4p lists and viewed the fight as a 50/50 fight, and IMO if it weren't for the headbutt Bradley still would have stopped him late

---

Agreed. I've purposefully tried to stay out of this thread, but people are starting to question Bradley, Campbell, Juan Diaz... I need to step in now. You can make any fighter sound bad if you try hard enough. Hell, I could say that all of Manny Pacquiao's big wins come off fighters who were either past their prime, or coming off recent losses. Hell, even Floyd Mayweather only seems to fight against boxers that are either smaller or slower than him... see what I mean people?

If the point of this thread was to prove that Kotelnik isn't mediocre, sorry but you've failed. If you think really hard, sure, you can find worse champions, but I don't think Kotelnik will ever go down as anything special in boxing history... mmmm.... mediocrity.
BTW, Maidana won their fight easily. That was a complete robbery in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Great. What's Holt ever done? Headbutted Torres to defeat. That's literally it.

What does Nate Campbell have in his arsenal that makes beating him seem such a great achievement? Especially at 140?

All Campbell has is a surprise close win over Juan Diaz - who again has a history of being in very close fights against mediocre - but marketable fighters.

---

Holt also has wins over the bum that is David Diaz (if he's considered a "big win" for Manny why not for the first guy to do it), Hlatshwayo (a good solid fighter), Arnaoutis (need i say more? lol), and D-Hop

as for Campbell, did you forget that he also beat Ali Funeka? the same Funeka he dropped like a bag of bricks twice, and the same Funeka that basically dominated the undefeated Joan Guzman, and possibly the #1 or #2 guy at 135 now that Marquez has evidently left lightweight, don't try to change history cause come fight night most people had Campbell on their p4p lists and viewed the fight as a 50/50 fight, and IMO if it weren't for the headbutt Bradley still would have stopped him late

---

Most people had Nate Campbell on their p4p lists? Are you joking?

He probably would have stopped him, because Nate Campbell isn't a strong welterweight. The fight with Bradley was clear evidence of that.

Even Joan Guzman is a fighter who blows hot and cold. Infront of the right opposition he looks fantastic, but equally he's capable of looking crap. And again, he's another fighter who hasn't beaten anybody that's worthy of all the hype he's had on here over the last few years.

The David Diaz point...i don't think anybody saw Manny's win as 'big' it was more a case of seeing if Manny could take his power up with him. Would you say that Hlatshwayo, Mighty Mike and D-Hop are any better than Kotelnik? If so, why?

It's a never ending cycle. People have said they'd give Khan credit for beating Maidana, Holt, Campbell, Paulie etc... when none of them have done anything to suggest they are any better than Kotelnik (who he got little credit for beating).

---

yea most people had Campbell on their p4p lists AT THAT TIME, Guzman has solid wins over Barrios and HUMBERTO SOTO, and the Campbell/Bradley fight was at jr welter not welter, and it was already known that Campbell was unable to make 135 anymore so a jump up to 140 was inevitable, try what you may but Kotelnik was/is garbage his biggest win is against a fighter mentioned in the most mediocre champions in Reese, he got a GIFT against Maidana and then Khan smashed him, and the point that you try to suggest that the limited, feather punching Kotelnik should be rated as highly as other clearly better fighters in Malignaggi, Campbell, Holt, Maidana, Urango, J. Diaz, Hatton, Bradley, even Torres and Ngoudjo are better fighters, is just comical

next you'll be stating the same as Seanie did above and try to convince us that Reese really wasn't half bad :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheBranMan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Great. What's Holt ever done? Headbutted Torres to defeat. That's literally it.

What does Nate Campbell have in his arsenal that makes beating him seem such a great achievement? Especially at 140?

All Campbell has is a surprise close win over Juan Diaz - who again has a history of being in very close fights against mediocre - but marketable fighters.

---

Holt also has wins over the bum that is David Diaz (if he's considered a "big win" for Manny why not for the first guy to do it), Hlatshwayo (a good solid fighter), Arnaoutis (need i say more? lol), and D-Hop

as for Campbell, did you forget that he also beat Ali Funeka? the same Funeka he dropped like a bag of bricks twice, and the same Funeka that basically dominated the undefeated Joan Guzman, and possibly the #1 or #2 guy at 135 now that Marquez has evidently left lightweight, don't try to change history cause come fight night most people had Campbell on their p4p lists and viewed the fight as a 50/50 fight, and IMO if it weren't for the headbutt Bradley still would have stopped him late

---

Agreed. I've purposefully tried to stay out of this thread, but people are starting to question Bradley, Campbell, Juan Diaz... I need to step in now. You can make any fighter sound bad if you try hard enough. Hell, I could say that all of Manny Pacquiao's big wins come off fighters who were either past their prime, or coming off recent losses. Hell, even Floyd Mayweather only seems to fight against boxers that are either smaller or slower than him... see what I mean people?

If the point of this thread was to prove that Kotelnik isn't mediocre, sorry but you've failed. If you think really hard, sure, you can find worse champions, but I don't think Kotelnik will ever go down as anything special in boxing history... mmmm.... mediocrity.
BTW, Maidana won their fight easily. That was a complete robbery in my eyes.

---

No it wasn't to show that Kotelnik wasn't mediocre. The point was to give your lost of ten of the worst world champions over the last 10 years. Only Mick has done that.

I'm not even saying Kotelnik isn't mediocre. I'm saying that he's probably on par with the people who've been mentioned as credible opponents for Khan. Turns out, post fight that the Kotelnik win didn't really mean much. My point is, a win over Holt, D-Hop, Maidana, Even Campbell at 140, Paulie et al would mean as little as the win over Kotelnik, once the dust has settled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Holt also has wins over the bum that is David Diaz (if he's considered a "big win" for Manny why not for the first guy to do it), Hlatshwayo (a good solid fighter), Arnaoutis (need i say more? lol), and D-Hop

as for Campbell, did you forget that he also beat Ali Funeka? the same Funeka he dropped like a bag of bricks twice, and the same Funeka that basically dominated the undefeated Joan Guzman, and possibly the #1 or #2 guy at 135 now that Marquez has evidently left lightweight, don't try to change history cause come fight night most people had Campbell on their p4p lists and viewed the fight as a 50/50 fight, and IMO if it weren't for the headbutt Bradley still would have stopped him late

---

Most people had Nate Campbell on their p4p lists? Are you joking?

He probably would have stopped him, because Nate Campbell isn't a strong welterweight. The fight with Bradley was clear evidence of that.

Even Joan Guzman is a fighter who blows hot and cold. Infront of the right opposition he looks fantastic, but equally he's capable of looking crap. And again, he's another fighter who hasn't beaten anybody that's worthy of all the hype he's had on here over the last few years.

The David Diaz point...i don't think anybody saw Manny's win as 'big' it was more a case of seeing if Manny could take his power up with him. Would you say that Hlatshwayo, Mighty Mike and D-Hop are any better than Kotelnik? If so, why?

It's a never ending cycle. People have said they'd give Khan credit for beating Maidana, Holt, Campbell, Paulie etc... when none of them have done anything to suggest they are any better than Kotelnik (who he got little credit for beating).

---

yea most people had Campbell on their p4p lists AT THAT TIME, Guzman has solid wins over Barrios and HUMBERTO SOTO, and the Campbell/Bradley fight was at jr welter not welter, and it was already known that Campbell was unable to make 135 anymore so a jump up to 140 was inevitable, try what you may but Kotelnik was/is garbage his biggest win is against a fighter mentioned in the most mediocre champions in Reese, he got a GIFT against Maidana and then Khan smashed him, and the point that you try to suggest that the limited, feather punching Kotelnik should be rated as highly as other clearly better fighters in Malignaggi, Campbell, Holt, Maidana, Urango, J. Diaz, Hatton, Bradley, even Torres and Ngoudjo are better fighters, is just comical

next you'll be stating the same as Seanie did above and try to convince us that Reese really wasn't half bad :rolleyes:

---

Sorry i meant light welter. Campbell won't ever be effective at 140. He didn't get a gift against Maidana. That's your opinion.

EDIT: Where did people have Campbell on their p4p lists? Top 100?

Please explain to me what Urango, Paulie, Holt, Maidana (infact you think Maidana is clearly better than Kotelnik, yet he lost to him), Ngoudjo have all done that dwarthes anything that Kotelnik has ever achieved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Most people had Nate Campbell on their p4p lists? Are you joking?

He probably would have stopped him, because Nate Campbell isn't a strong welterweight. The fight with Bradley was clear evidence of that.

Even Joan Guzman is a fighter who blows hot and cold. Infront of the right opposition he looks fantastic, but equally he's capable of looking crap. And again, he's another fighter who hasn't beaten anybody that's worthy of all the hype he's had on here over the last few years.

The David Diaz point...i don't think anybody saw Manny's win as 'big' it was more a case of seeing if Manny could take his power up with him. Would you say that Hlatshwayo, Mighty Mike and D-Hop are any better than Kotelnik? If so, why?

It's a never ending cycle. People have said they'd give Khan credit for beating Maidana, Holt, Campbell, Paulie etc... when none of them have done anything to suggest they are any better than Kotelnik (who he got little credit for beating).

---

yea most people had Campbell on their p4p lists AT THAT TIME, Guzman has solid wins over Barrios and HUMBERTO SOTO, and the Campbell/Bradley fight was at jr welter not welter, and it was already known that Campbell was unable to make 135 anymore so a jump up to 140 was inevitable, try what you may but Kotelnik was/is garbage his biggest win is against a fighter mentioned in the most mediocre champions in Reese, he got a GIFT against Maidana and then Khan smashed him, and the point that you try to suggest that the limited, feather punching Kotelnik should be rated as highly as other clearly better fighters in Malignaggi, Campbell, Holt, Maidana, Urango, J. Diaz, Hatton, Bradley, even Torres and Ngoudjo are better fighters, is just comical

next you'll be stating the same as Seanie did above and try to convince us that Reese really wasn't half bad :rolleyes:

---

Sorry i meant light welter. Campbell won't ever be effective at 140. He didn't get a gift against Maidana. That's your opinion.

EDIT: Where did people have Campbell on their p4p lists? Top 100?

Please explain to me what Urango, Paulie, Holt, Maidana (infact you think Maidana is clearly better than Kotelnik, yet he lost to him), Ngoudjo have all done that dwarthes anything that Kotelnik has ever achieved.

---

for fuck sake Campbell was even on Saddos p4p list at the time of the Bradley fight, he was on Espns p4p list, obviously not now

and all of those mentioned have done well against top tier opposition not just against Reese, and a GIFT against Maidana

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

yea most people had Campbell on their p4p lists AT THAT TIME, Guzman has solid wins over Barrios and HUMBERTO SOTO, and the Campbell/Bradley fight was at jr welter not welter, and it was already known that Campbell was unable to make 135 anymore so a jump up to 140 was inevitable, try what you may but Kotelnik was/is garbage his biggest win is against a fighter mentioned in the most mediocre champions in Reese, he got a GIFT against Maidana and then Khan smashed him, and the point that you try to suggest that the limited, feather punching Kotelnik should be rated as highly as other clearly better fighters in Malignaggi, Campbell, Holt, Maidana, Urango, J. Diaz, Hatton, Bradley, even Torres and Ngoudjo are better fighters, is just comical

next you'll be stating the same as Seanie did above and try to convince us that Reese really wasn't half bad :rolleyes:

---

Sorry i meant light welter. Campbell won't ever be effective at 140. He didn't get a gift against Maidana. That's your opinion.

EDIT: Where did people have Campbell on their p4p lists? Top 100?

Please explain to me what Urango, Paulie, Holt, Maidana (infact you think Maidana is clearly better than Kotelnik, yet he lost to him), Ngoudjo have all done that dwarthes anything that Kotelnik has ever achieved.

---

for fuck sake Campbell was even on Saddos p4p list at the time of the Bradley fight, he was on Espns p4p list, obviously not now

and all of those mentioned have done well against top tier opposition not just against Reese, and a GIFT against Maidana

---

Well let's break down what you've said.

Juan Urango - Ricky Hatton. Urango won 1 round. Hatton had flu

Juan Urango - Andre Berto. Berto coasted to victory

Kendall Holt - Was on a suicide mission before headbutting Torres. Beaten Mighty Mike, and laboured to wins over Ben Tackie and D-Hop. Hardly awe-inspiring.

Paulie - Got beaten up by Cotto, Got beaten up by Hatton. Nearly got stopped by Ngoudjo, Best win is Lovemore N'Dou.

Maidana - Floored twice but out-battled Victor 'i know i'm a boxer but i shouldn't be taking punches' Ortiz. Lost to Kotelnik the worst fighter ever to lace up gloves. Please stop typing gift in capitals. It doesn't make it true. :p

The sad thing is, all of the above fighters (Khan and Kotelnik included) are all by definition 'world class'. By that, i mean they are roughly the best Boxing has to offer in the 10 stone category. None of those fighters have done anything that Kotelnik isn't capable of, yet he'd get a tone of credit for beating them.
Edit: If we're getting bogged down in what ESPN think, Dan Rafael believes Kotelnik won the Maidana fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Sorry i meant light welter. Campbell won't ever be effective at 140. He didn't get a gift against Maidana. That's your opinion.

EDIT: Where did people have Campbell on their p4p lists? Top 100?

Please explain to me what Urango, Paulie, Holt, Maidana (infact you think Maidana is clearly better than Kotelnik, yet he lost to him), Ngoudjo have all done that dwarthes anything that Kotelnik has ever achieved.

---

for fuck sake Campbell was even on Saddos p4p list at the time of the Bradley fight, he was on Espns p4p list, obviously not now

and all of those mentioned have done well against top tier opposition not just against Reese, and a GIFT against Maidana

---

Well let's break down what you've said.

Juan Urango - Ricky Hatton. Urango won 1 round. Hatton had flu

Juan Urango - Andre Berto. Berto coasted to victory

Kendall Holt - Was on a suicide mission before headbutting Torres. Beaten Mighty Mike, and laboured to wins over Ben Tackie and D-Hop. Hardly awe-inspiring.

Paulie - Got beaten up by Cotto, Got beaten up by Hatton. Nearly got stopped by Ngoudjo, Best win is Lovemore N'Dou.

Maidana - Floored twice but out-battled Victor 'i know i'm a boxer but i shouldn't be taking punches' Ortiz. Lost to Kotelnik the worst fighter ever to lace up gloves. Please stop typing gift in capitals. It doesn't make it true. :p

The sad thing is, all of the above fighters (Khan and Kotelnik included) are all by definition 'world class'. By that, i mean they are roughly the best Boxing has to offer in the 10 stone category. None of those fighters have done anything that Kotelnik isn't capable of, yet he'd get a tone of credit for beating them.

---

Kotelnik- a win over Reese :-X and a gift against Maidana

sure as hell seems the weakest of the bunch

and just in case i've been saying that Kotelnik was garbage even before he fought Khan, so stop trying to make Amir a victim

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

for fuck sake Campbell was even on Saddos p4p list at the time of the Bradley fight, he was on Espns p4p list, obviously not now

and all of those mentioned have done well against top tier opposition not just against Reese, and a GIFT against Maidana

---

Well let's break down what you've said.

Juan Urango - Ricky Hatton. Urango won 1 round. Hatton had flu

Juan Urango - Andre Berto. Berto coasted to victory

Kendall Holt - Was on a suicide mission before headbutting Torres. Beaten Mighty Mike, and laboured to wins over Ben Tackie and D-Hop. Hardly awe-inspiring.

Paulie - Got beaten up by Cotto, Got beaten up by Hatton. Nearly got stopped by Ngoudjo, Best win is Lovemore N'Dou.

Maidana - Floored twice but out-battled Victor 'i know i'm a boxer but i shouldn't be taking punches' Ortiz. Lost to Kotelnik the worst fighter ever to lace up gloves. Please stop typing gift in capitals. It doesn't make it true. :p

The sad thing is, all of the above fighters (Khan and Kotelnik included) are all by definition 'world class'. By that, i mean they are roughly the best Boxing has to offer in the 10 stone category. None of those fighters have done anything that Kotelnik isn't capable of, yet he'd get a tone of credit for beating them.

---

Kotelnik- a win over Reese :-X and a gift against Maidana

sure as hell seems the weakest of the bunch

and just in case i've been saying that Kotelnik was garbage even before he fought Khan, so stop trying to make Amir a victim

---

No he doesn't. 1) - Because he beat Maidana. Out of interest, seen as though you were so eager to point out that ESPN had Nate Campbell listed, let me say, Dan Rafael had Kotelnik winning the Maidana fight.2) - Urango's wins over Ngoudjo and Bailey aren't really any better than Kotelnik's wins over Rees and MaidanaI'm not trying to say Khan is a victim. I'm saying that to me, beating Urango, Maidana, Paulie etc...aint that much of a step up from Kotelnik. In other words, i don't see how you'd give him zero credit for beating Kotelnik but you'd give him credit for beating any of the above 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Well let's break down what you've said.

Juan Urango - Ricky Hatton. Urango won 1 round. Hatton had flu

Juan Urango - Andre Berto. Berto coasted to victory

Kendall Holt - Was on a suicide mission before headbutting Torres. Beaten Mighty Mike, and laboured to wins over Ben Tackie and D-Hop. Hardly awe-inspiring.

Paulie - Got beaten up by Cotto, Got beaten up by Hatton. Nearly got stopped by Ngoudjo, Best win is Lovemore N'Dou.

Maidana - Floored twice but out-battled Victor 'i know i'm a boxer but i shouldn't be taking punches' Ortiz. Lost to Kotelnik the worst fighter ever to lace up gloves. Please stop typing gift in capitals. It doesn't make it true. :p

The sad thing is, all of the above fighters (Khan and Kotelnik included) are all by definition 'world class'. By that, i mean they are roughly the best Boxing has to offer in the 10 stone category. None of those fighters have done anything that Kotelnik isn't capable of, yet he'd get a tone of credit for beating them.

---

Kotelnik- a win over Reese :-X and a gift against Maidana

sure as hell seems the weakest of the bunch

and just in case i've been saying that Kotelnik was garbage even before he fought Khan, so stop trying to make Amir a victim

---

No he doesn't. 1) - Because he beat Maidana. Out of interest, seen as though you were so eager to point out that ESPN had Nate Campbell listed, let me say, Dan Rafael had Kotelnik winning the Maidana fight.2) - Urango's wins over Ngoudjo and Bailey aren't really any better than Kotelnik's wins over Rees and MaidanaI'm not trying to say Khan is a victim. I'm saying that to me, beating Urango, Maidana, Paulie etc...aint that much of a step up from Kotelnik. In other words, i don't see how you'd give him zero credit for beating Kotelnik but you'd give him credit for beating any of the above 3.

---

i'm not even gonna bother trying to explain it anymore cause if you can't see the difference between the quality in Kotelnik and the others mentioned it's pretty clear that you're blind, Kotelnik always has and always will be garbage, not all that great technically and has the punching power of a mouse, it's pathetic, Khan needs to step it up, and if you can't see how much better and able the others are mentioned than you better quit trying cause you must be blind

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Kotelnik- a win over Reese :-X and a gift against Maidana

sure as hell seems the weakest of the bunch

and just in case i've been saying that Kotelnik was garbage even before he fought Khan, so stop trying to make Amir a victim

---

No he doesn't. 1) - Because he beat Maidana. Out of interest, seen as though you were so eager to point out that ESPN had Nate Campbell listed, let me say, Dan Rafael had Kotelnik winning the Maidana fight.2) - Urango's wins over Ngoudjo and Bailey aren't really any better than Kotelnik's wins over Rees and MaidanaI'm not trying to say Khan is a victim. I'm saying that to me, beating Urango, Maidana, Paulie etc...aint that much of a step up from Kotelnik. In other words, i don't see how you'd give him zero credit for beating Kotelnik but you'd give him credit for beating any of the above 3.

---

i'm not even gonna bother trying to explain it anymore cause if you can't see the difference between the quality in Kotelnik and the others mentioned it's pretty clear that you're blind, Kotelnik always has and always will be garbage, not all that great technically and has the punching power of a mouse, it's pathetic, Khan needs to step it up, and if you can't see how much better and able the others are mentioned than you better quit trying cause you must be blind

---

I can't see it. That's why i'm asking you to show me...