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I was watching Tarver v Jones Jr 1 the other night and remembered his post fight interview where he said he would never fight in LHW again, wanted to go back up to HW and fight Tyson then retire.
Just wanting to know why this fight never took place and had it, who would've won at the time?
It depend when RJJ would have fought Tyson. If it was before he goes to jail, then Tyson would have easily won (in my opinion). But since Tarver VS RJJ was in 2003-2004, I'm pretty sure Tyson would have lost. At that time he was nothing compared to his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themantonio
Even at Tysons worst he still had a lot of speed and power for a heavyweight. I dont think Jones could have put enough on Tyson to keep him off of him, and thats what it took to stop Tyson. Tyson would land and Jones would get knocked out.
As bad as Tyson was then, he would just need to land once and it would happen in 36 minutes of a fight. Tyson was only beaten by big heavies who used their weight on him to tire him out. Roy would not do that.
Agreed even Holyfield used the tactic of leaning and pushing Tyson back to wear him out. Tyson would be too dangerous at range with his speed and power and Jones couldnt do enough from the outside to keep Tyson off of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
At the time they would have fought, Tysons skill werent even close to what they were. He no longer moved his head, he only moved his hands; he telegraphed his punches; Didn't punch in combinations anymore and he gave up if he couldnt knock his opponent out in 3 rounds. He had no trainer he would listen to.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
If he couldnt hit Botha for 6 rounds, Jone's movement would have gave him fits. Tyson like bigger slower opponents because they were easier to hit and rested on the ropes. Even if Jone's jab that was rediscovered at heavyweight wasnt enough to keep Tyson off balance, he could have potshotted tyson and held for 3 rounds and waited for tyson to lose interest, and then pick him apart. At the time they would have fought, Tyson wouldnt have gotten embarrassed barring a heavy shot landing or one of the patented armbars doing damage to Jones in the first few rounds of which Jones would have been too smart to engage in a firefight.
I see what your saying but remember, (and I actually see the fight ending just like the Botha fight), Tyson was coming off a year and half layoff when he fought Botha from the suspension and road rage jail term. He was also just hooking up with a real trainer in Tommy Brooks who had him looking pretty good after working with him for a few fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_UndisputedAt the time they would have fought, Tysons skill werent even close to what they were. He no longer moved his head, he only moved his hands; he telegraphed his punches; Didn't punch in combinations anymore and he gave up if he couldnt knock his opponent out in 3 rounds. He had no trainer he would listen to.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
If he couldnt hit Botha for 6 rounds, Jone's movement would have gave him fits. Tyson like bigger slower opponents because they were easier to hit and rested on the ropes. Even if Jone's jab that was rediscovered at heavyweight wasnt enough to keep Tyson off balance, he could have potshotted tyson and held for 3 rounds and waited for tyson to lose interest, and then pick him apart. At the time they would have fought, Tyson wouldnt have gotten embarrassed barring a heavy shot landing or one of the patented armbars doing damage to Jones in the first few rounds of which Jones would have been too smart to engage in a firefight.
I think the Tyson that fought Golota would have been quick enough and explosive enough to eventually catch Jones even if he did have some success running and boxing for a few rounds.
Theoretically, it is quite possible. The reason I give the edge to Jones is that he seemed extra sharp in those fights where he was in the most danger. He seemed to be driven by the challenge and the thought of losing it all. The Toney Fight;The Griffin rematch saw Jones posessed; The fight with Telesco at Radio City Music Hall with only one good had was masterful; the fight with a Ruiz with a guy that outweighed him by about 20+ lbs saw him sharp also (despite being rocked a little by Ruiz) and fighting through it. Jones fighting Tyson and the dangers that came with it for a fighter come up from LH and fighting a guy with Tysons Power, would have had Jones on another level.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunksI see what your saying but remember, (and I actually see the fight ending just like the Botha fight), Tyson was coming off a year and half layoff when he fought Botha from the suspension and road rage jail term. He was also just hooking up with a real trainer in Tommy Brooks who had him looking pretty good after working with him for a few fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_UndisputedAt the time they would have fought, Tysons skill werent even close to what they were. He no longer moved his head, he only moved his hands; he telegraphed his punches; Didn't punch in combinations anymore and he gave up if he couldnt knock his opponent out in 3 rounds. He had no trainer he would listen to.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
If he couldnt hit Botha for 6 rounds, Jone's movement would have gave him fits. Tyson like bigger slower opponents because they were easier to hit and rested on the ropes. Even if Jone's jab that was rediscovered at heavyweight wasnt enough to keep Tyson off balance, he could have potshotted tyson and held for 3 rounds and waited for tyson to lose interest, and then pick him apart. At the time they would have fought, Tyson wouldnt have gotten embarrassed barring a heavy shot landing or one of the patented armbars doing damage to Jones in the first few rounds of which Jones would have been too smart to engage in a firefight.
I think the Tyson that fought Golota would have been quick enough and explosive enough to eventually catch Jones even if he did have some success running and boxing for a few rounds.
Anyone can get caught. I have trouble see Brooks getting Tyson in enough focus and with enough skills to time, catch or unload on Jones before Tysons carriage turned back into a pumpkin at the start of round 4. Its unfortunate for Tyson that Evander's punch then clinch method laid the blueprint on how to beat him. Even Botha used it to frustrate Tyson before he stepped into the punch that dropped him and showed shockwaves travel down his back in a ripple of fat if you watch the slow-mo. I can't see Jones jousting powershots with Tyson like that. He'd know better and that was still before Jones became a headcase and stopped using his evasiveness to get the hell out dodge and started covering up with hands high and sitting on the ropes.
Could be but wow it would be a tall order for Jones. He would basically not have to get hit the entire fight. Even Holyfield was hit very hard and stunned by Tyson in both fights. I think you may be underestimating Tysons speed and power which was a lot harder than anything Jones had faced previously.
I just dont see Jones being able to take any kind of good shot from Tyson and I dont see Jones possessing enough power to stop Tyson from coming forward. Botha was still a pretty big physical guy 6'2 235 who was able to tie up and move Tyson around a little bit on the inside which kind of made Tyson frustrated and sloppy.
Jones has gone entire pretty much entire fights without getting hit witha good shot by faster fighters with longer reach and even recorded a round where he never got hit by a Rooney trained Pazienza fightinga similar style. Yes jones had enough power at the weight to make Paz think twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
But heavy this is all about styles. The fighters that we were mentioning here were forward fighters. Evander, Botha as well as most people that Tyson fought were not fighters with good movement that were known for avoiding punches. In the later stages, the only fighter that probably tried to use the ring and any movement, was Lennox and he used a telephone pole jab to keep Tyson at bay. Mostly because he had too because his lateral movement wasn't that good.
Jones never fought a puncher like Tyson. Tyson never fought a mover and slickster with the speed of Jones. When it comes down to it, I fancy Jones chance of not getting his cleanly and picking away at Tysons self esteem for 3 rounds than I do Tyson landing a big clean telegraphed shot on a guy whos hadn't really been hit cleanly and barely lost a round at those respective stages in their careers. Especially when Jones was on a high off beating Ruiz and Tyson was going through all the stuff he was going through and had already had his aura shattered by Holyfield.
Paz was a 5 foot 7 former lightweight that fought Jones at 168 thats a strange comparison to say the least. Paz was no where near the offensive threat of any version of Tyson.Quote:
Jones has gone entire pretty much entire fights without getting hit witha good shot by faster fighters with longer reach and even recorded a round where he never got hit by a Rooney trained Pazienza fightinga similar style. Yes jones had enough power at the weight to make Paz think twice.
Who was faster than Tyson that Jones faced?
Even a washed up Tyson had wiskers enough to deal with Jones power for a few rounds....And even a washed up Tyson could keep up a pace that would have Roy on the ropes for a few rounds and somewhere in there Roy would get caught..
Mike is no Tarver, Johnson or Green his shots would have done more damage and I give at least the TKO
Paz was not the offensive threat as far as power goes, but fought a comparable style to what Tyson fought in his better days with the speed of a lighter weight class and only 2 inches shorter than. Build and stylewise, Paz was a minature of Tyson. Jones only fought one heavyweight, definitely noone at heavyweight was faster than Tyson, but my point is that many of the fighters that Jones faced in the ring, fought at a faster pace and speed than Tyson as is typical at lower weights. Plus Tyson at the time that the fight was supposed to take place was wasn't as fast as he used to be and wore himself out after 2 rounds of swinging and missing. We're not talking prime for prime. We're talking about Tyson on the tail end of his career, where he would give up after 3 rounds, look for a way out and whine when they dressed his cuts in between rounds.... Vs. a Jones Jr. that just completed the greatest accomplishment of his Career.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
Sure people look at the Jones /Green fight and see a grazing shot knock jones retarded. But for the time of the fight happening, Jones looked invincible and tyson couldn't even pull enough of himself together to make it through a fight.
You're suggesting that Jones was the same at heavyweight as he was in the Green, Johnson, and Tarver fights? That he would train with the same intent? By the same standard I could say Danny Williams, a man with 1/25 the skill of Jones, lasted 4 rounds with Tyson while he let tyson punch him at will, so Jones should be able to avoid tyson while sleepwalking around the ring. Jones didnt start to languish on the ropes regularly until after the drop in weight and KO losses. Before that, it was only when he took rounds off around 7-9, a point tyson would have given up long before.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Its not a questioning of deal with Jones' power. Jones wouldnt be looking for the KO because it wouldn't be worth the risk. The thought of Tyson walking through Jones punches landing bomb after bomb is pointless. Jones wouldn't stand and trade with Tyson, which would be Tyson's best shot at victory. Instead he'd be using the ring and his speed. It doesnt take a hard superheavyweight jab to keep an opponent off balance or disrupt his rhythm or not let him get his feet set. Jones was in better condition and be concentrating on taking this fight to the later rounds where his offense would pick up after tysons spirit would have already been broken. In the early part of it, dancing and holding would have provided enough time for tyson to give up on himself. Just my opinion.
I just made this same thread no more than a month ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themantonio
Sorry dude, must've missed it... :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanI just made this same thread no more than a month ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themantonio
Take the hint buddy ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFanI just made this same thread no more than a month ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themantonio
Personally, i have given up on assuming the fighter with the punchers chance will do damage. But when you are putting a moderate yet sharp-punching LHW in with MIKE TYSON.... :rolleyes:
Don't matter who bad Tyson was, he ain't Valuev ;)
Tyson around this time fought Cliff Etienne. He was in pretty good shape for that fight and still explosive. Tyson, as far as he slipped, was still one of, if not the quickest heavyweights around.
Jones just didnt have enough firepower to keep Tyson off of him, or size to muscle Tyson around to wear him out. Tyson at some point would connect on Jones probably sooner than later.
I think where ever Tyson would have hit Jones he would have hurt him. Roy liked to lay on the ropes and cover up while guys wore themselves out trying to hit him. He wouldn't have done that with Mike and tried to circle around in the middle of the ring. I think eventually Mike would have tapped him with something and even if it weren't clean it would have had an effect or pushed him out of a position he wanted to be in. With Roy's chin and Mike's power all it would have taken was 1 punch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_UndisputedYou're suggesting that Jones was the same at heavyweight as he was in the Green, Johnson, and Tarver fights? That he would train with the same intent? By the same standard I could say Danny Williams, a man with 1/25 the skill of Jones, lasted 4 rounds with Tyson while he let tyson punch him at will, so Jones should be able to avoid tyson while sleepwalking around the ring. Jones didnt start to languish on the ropes regularly until after the drop in weight and KO losses. Before that, it was only when he took rounds off around 7-9, a point tyson would have given up long before.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Its not a questioning of deal with Jones' power. Jones wouldnt be looking for the KO because it wouldn't be worth the risk. The thought of Tyson walking through Jones punches landing bomb after bomb is pointless. Jones wouldn't stand and trade with Tyson, which would be Tyson's best shot at victory. Instead he'd be using the ring and his speed. It doesnt take a hard superheavyweight jab to keep an opponent off balance or disrupt his rhythm or not let him get his feet set. Jones was in better condition and be concentrating on taking this fight to the later rounds where his offense would pick up after tysons spirit would have already been broken. In the early part of it, dancing and holding would have provided enough time for tyson to give up on himself. Just my opinion.
The question in the main post was
I was watching Tarver v Jones Jr 1 the other night and remembered his post fight interview where he said he would never fight in LHW again, wanted to go back up to HW and fight Tyson then retire.
Just wanting to know why this fight never took place and had it, who would've won at the time?
After Tarver Jones 1 Roy had already been at HW and his way back to LHW left him with nothing...We are talking about how would the fight have gone IF jones went back to HW and fought Tyson...It was proven at LHW by Tarver and Johnson guys who on their best days do not hit as hard as Tyson...Jones had long lost his real speed...Tyson had still enough speed more then the average HW at least....
We are to assume the two fighters are going to train at their best so you can not use an undertrained Tyson for the Williams fight and use the scenario by saying Tyson would be the one to give a shitty performance we need assume both would do the best to their abilities, in truth Jones was horrible against Tarver in the first fight and was lucky to get by him....Jones wouldn't trade with Tyson? well of course not he would lay on the ropes try to be cute and counter punch...He did it his whole career after moving up from SMW this fight would be different why?...Jones is an arrogant man who believes in his skill too much...refuses to believe that in truth Roy Jones is not a very good boxer when you speak on technical terms...he was able to do amazing things as a fighter because of his amazing athletic ability but once the speed and reflexes leave you so do the amazing things and without the technical skills to fall back on Jones is in trouble...
Truth is at HW Jones really did not have much and he knew this that is why he choose Ruiz to fight for a title not Lewis...HW means HW not pick and choose size to suiting...you fight at HW you take on guys 201-500lbs like it or not...Jones is no idiot he knew his HW title picture was a one shot deal and any defenses were going to be against ham and eggers....
So now back to the topic...AT the time of the statement and according to the question asked...Going by what each one had physically left at the time of the year 2003 when Jones fought Tarver the first time...
Assuming each man trained to his fullest ability and gave his fullest effort in the fight yes Mike Tyson would have knocked out Roy Jones...
Especially since just a yr or so later Jones was knocked out in 2 rds by Tarver and 9 rounds by Johnson in devestating fashion..
Jones would have sat on the ropes even if not willingly and got caught...
He showed this in fights that actually took place so why would a mythical matchup be any different?
Even if Jones laid on the ropes and took a body shot he would've been hurt. Mike packed too much of a punch for someone like Roy to just soak up.
Even if you're not buying into the weight drain arguments, you'd actually think Jones would be dumb enough to lay on the ropes for the 1st 3 rounds against one of the most devastating punchers the heavweight division has ever seen, if its been proven that he could move circle, jab and hold till Tyson gave up.
All of sudden Tyson decides to rededicate himself to training after half @ssing it ever since he got out of prison? No matter who the trainer is. The last leg of his career - minus the media circus was a farewell tour of brian nielsens, buster mathis juniors, black rhinos, bothas, mcbrides, seldons etc? I was a huge tyson fan myself and diluded myself into thinking he would be back to form for each fight. The truth is he was mess mentally and no trainer was about to or could change that.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Jones rehyrdrating and gaining back his nutrition may have suffered twice effects of the weight fluctuation, but since we're omitting that when talking about tarver and johnson's fights against Roy, I suppose it doesn't count here either. Jones physically at his best beats a Tyson mentally at his worst, in my book .
That fight could have gone either way it could have been Ali-Liston or it could have been Foster-Frazier.
RJJ wasn't a spectacular heavyweight, but at that point in time Mike Tyson wasn't any great shakes either, he had head movement from time to time but threw 1 big bomb after another and it's doubtful that he would have caught Roy with one but on the off chance he did the fight would have been over shortly thereafter
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Undisputed
Yes we will have to agree to disagree on this one...
I too like you and millions of others thought Tyson would at least be a shadow of himself eventually but it never happened he became too distraught emotionally....
With that being said though emotions or not you get hit you get hit and even if Roy did move he would get hit eventually within 3 rounds and like I said going on what happened in his next 2 fights after the first Tarver fight the chin would not hold in my opp...
Funny thing is Tyson and Jones share something in common...
Both became so confident in their skillset that once eroded they had no plan B to fall back on like most vetern fighters do...
Tyson believed too much in his power to think he needed to keep using his skillset that made him what he was and Jones never thought he would ever slow down
Again...?Really ? Mentally Jones blows Tyson away.But physical is beating Jones in fantasy here.Tyson not exactly slow himself,and Jones would have to stand still...for at least a couple of seconds.Really would be that simple I feel.