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How good could Zab have been... if?
Given his boxing skills, speed, power through combinations, and natural athleticism,, BUT IF he actually had full control of his temperament, concentration, and the heart of a Mexican fighter?
I ask as i'm watching some old Zab fights, and just about every fight he's been in, against even the toughest fighters he's faced, he's troubled them with his talent. He's caught them with counters, been able to land combinations when he let fly, been very good defensively... I think he had the natural ability, boxing skill wise, to be as dominant as a Mayweather. I mean, Mayweather is something really special, and just when you feel he has some sort of weakness, no one is able to exploit it...
By the end of a Zab fight, you could always list his weakness's that the other fighter exploited and go the better of it..
But Zab at his best, if he could keep the focus and concentration, and been able to fight on like a Barerra or Vasquez through adversity, could have ruled a Welterweight division with the Authority of a Mayweather or most of those who ruled it in the past...
Thoughts?
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
Given his boxing skills, speed, power through combinations, and natural athleticism,, BUT IF he actually had full control of his temperament, concentration, and the heart of a Mexican fighter?
I ask as i'm watching some old Zab fights, and just about every fight he's been in, against even the toughest fighters he's faced, he's troubled them with his talent. He's caught them with counters, been able to land combinations when he let fly, been very good defensively... I think he had the natural ability, boxing skill wise, to be as dominant as a Mayweather. I mean, Mayweather is something really special, and just when you feel he has some sort of weakness, no one is able to exploit it...
By the end of a Zab fight, you could always list his weakness's that the other fighter exploited and go the better of it..
But Zab at his best, if he could keep the focus and concentration, and been able to fight on like a Barerra or Vasquez through adversity, could have ruled a Welterweight division with the Authority of a Mayweather or most of those who ruled it in the past...
Thoughts?
I was thinking the exact same thing after re-watching mayweather judah and cotto judah the other day. I think if he was mentally stronger he could have been a force at 140 or 147.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
He was a talented fighter but he is the way he was, and would not do any better. What if Pernell had a punch, Hearns a good chin they would be different fighters and may not have been as good.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Alot better because the skillset was there. It was his lack of confidence when he got pressured that cost him alot of fights but that is who he is.
When you think about it, thats the same with almost any fighter.
For example, Cotto would of been better if he had better stamina and defense.
Paul Williams would be much better if he could defend well.
Wladimir Klitschko would of been better if he had a granite chin.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Naturally he was a cant miss,became a front runner of sorts but his problem is between his ears.You cannot train that away.Hes never matured and could be undisciplined in ring,too stuck on super star and maybe it had something to do with the crowd he surrounded himself with.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
You would have thought he would have matured with age. But no.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
Given his boxing skills, speed, power through combinations, and natural athleticism,, BUT IF he actually had full control of his temperament, concentration, and the heart of a Mexican fighter?
I ask as i'm watching some old Zab fights, and just about every fight he's been in, against even the toughest fighters he's faced, he's troubled them with his talent. He's caught them with counters, been able to land combinations when he let fly, been very good defensively... I think he had the natural ability, boxing skill wise, to be as dominant as a Mayweather. I mean, Mayweather is something really special, and just when you feel he has some sort of weakness, no one is able to exploit it...
By the end of a Zab fight, you could always list his weakness's that the other fighter exploited and go the better of it..
But Zab at his best, if he could keep the focus and concentration, and been able to fight on like a Barerra or Vasquez through adversity, could have ruled a Welterweight division with the Authority of a Mayweather or most of those who ruled it in the past...
Thoughts?
In other words how good could Zab have been if he was completely another fighter?
:confused:
Never liked his punk ass and I'm glad his career went down faster then Kim Kardashian on Ray J...
Watchin Cotto beat his ass all night was one of the more satisfying moments in boxing for me.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
There's other threads here where i've stated before that when i first saw zab back in the day i thought he'd be one of the greatest fighters of all time. But like most of you stated here he is also one of the most unfocused, undiciplined guys as well. And to me he landed right there in the middle of those two in his career. I mean no matter who he's fought even mayweather there's never been a fight where i've ever thought he couldn't win......he just doesn't. If boxing were only four or six rounds he still might have been one of the greatest, but to ask him to fight for a full 12 or sometimes even 10.....good luck. And he wants to fight alexander ?? Yea sure zab.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
He was a talented fighter but he is the way he was, and would not do any better. What if Pernell had a punch, Hearns a good chin they would be different fighters and may not have been as good.
Good points... Can a weakness make the fighters style?
If leg Iron Mike had a real family at the time I bet we wouldnt have seen that vengeful hunger.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mar
There's other threads here where i've stated before that when i first saw zab back in the day i thought he'd be one of the greatest fighters of all time. But like most of you stated here he is also one of the most unfocused, undiciplined guys as well. And to me he landed right there in the middle of those two in his career. I mean no matter who he's fought even mayweather there's never been a fight where i've ever thought he couldn't win......he just doesn't. If boxing were only four or six rounds he still might have been one of the greatest, but to ask him to fight for a full 12 or sometimes even 10.....good luck. And he wants to fight alexander ?? Yea sure zab.
He had unearned tickets on himself right from the word go.Tried for gangster team look and all that stuff Tyson got up to.
Skilled yes but when those type of tickets start getting removed, even pre fight mentally, its a shame they were tagged on unstable foundations is all. Kostya pulled the fuse clean out of one of Zabs jibing mental bombs simply by changing the subject into something very close to Zabs heart at the time. It was like the cord got pulled out of record player.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
shit judah is one of my favorite fighters he's entertaining win or lose
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Its kind of hard to say. Skill wise,he had a natural talent for evading punches. He had good power, a low center of gravity. His chin would always be a problem, but with the right training and ring savvy, it could have been protected.
At heart Zabs a knucklehead and you could see it in some of the things he did even early on. He had good influences around him early on in Lou Duva and Ronnie Shields. They kept him humble for the most part and on a path when things went a little crazy in the ring (Like the piledriver he got from Wilfredo Negron).. Reminded him to use his skills and what he worked for in the gym and stuff like vengeance and anger would take care of themselves with the opportunity presented itself. They provided a frame for him and structure. He used to stutter really badly in the beginning and but never hesitated in the ring. It was part of him defining himself and coming into his own.
When he got close to a title fight and left Ronnie and Lou and put his father in the corner. He started getting knocked down. Not training as hard and the knucklehead tendencies became reinforced by his knucklehead father. You could tell he didn't train that hard and was dismissive of the thought of preparing like he used to and his father convinced him it was all skill and he could do whatever he wanted to his opponents. So he started stepping straight back with his hands down (Tszyu, Millet) and hitting fighters when they were already down (David Sample) ... all these things that showed lack of discipline. Theres 2 schools of thought on this... He was knuckle head who's level of competition caught up to him when it got stiffer .... or he started preparing down to his level of competition because he didn't feel he had to try as hard; a bad attitude uncaged and reinforced by his father in desire to keep the money in the family.
Looking at the later fights that he lost but still performed well early on in, like people mentioned above... kind of discredits the first theory. Considering the same kind of drop off (except on the scales) that David Tua suffered after he left Ronnie and Lou (who always tried to keep him somewhere near 220lbs).. it also lends credibility to the second theory.
Guided by Lou and Ronnie, Zab could have been something special... Lou had Sweet Pea so its easy to say he knew how far he could take Zab and who to keep him away from and how to handle the people he had to go through. Ronnie's also a good trainer and could have taken Zab the Rest of the way when Lou couldn't get up for the physical stuff. But this is all dependent on how long and far they could have kept Zab away from being a knucklehead, knowing he would be around that kind of influence every day with his dad and the people he hung around with. Its all dependent on that. (To those saying Zab beat Spinks with his dad in his corner... Even a blind chicken finds a worm sometimes...) Just my opinion of course... I could be wrong.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Haha, I knew I was open to the whole, what if he was a totally different fighter thing... What if you took someone's brain and planted it in this person with their skills...
I guess where I was thinking of it from is that there have been fighters who have had the mindset to be a superstar and have given it everything they possibly could, but the skill level or athleticism just wasn't there for them to become real champions...
Where as you see the skill aspect in Zab and glimpses of a style that could rock most fighters, but just a very lazy brain... It was almost as if he had a motivation/concentration meter that slowly got sapped down after each punch he took....
Completely opposite to most Mexican fighters where they take a punch and their physical bodies can wear out throughout a fight, but their minds are still as intent as they were when the opening bell rang to knock their opponents out..
But alas, he had a long career with enough opportunities to come good, but he couldn't get it together, or get a team around him who could straighten him out, so he's another nearly great fighter....
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Physically he had all the tools you could ask for....Speed, decent power, good foot movement, Zab could have been a major major player in this nsport if he was able or taught how to compose himself....A shame really
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Zab Judah is the Lebron James of boxing. Batman skillset, Robin mentality.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Zab Judah is the Lebron James of boxing. Batman skillset, Robin mentality.
I'd say he's more like Larry Bird, not for any reason really except I don't understand the comparison at all.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Majesty?! I'm not trying to debate basketball here but that was inexcusably bad. If you said Zab was the Tracy McGrady of boxing then yea you would have a more valid point. Oh well, gah that one was frustrating.
Zab is an extremely talented fighter, obviously we know now that it was foolish for some like those on ESPN to call him Pernell Whitaker with power like they did early on. Zab's problem was that he was sooo fast, one of the fastest punchers ever that he never really grew his skillset beyond that. He still made to many mistakes and that's what cost him against the top flight opposition. Stupid mistakes like pulling straight backwards, dropping his hands after punches, never figuring out a solution to stop those right hands, loading up on single punches to much, ect. Basically he fought a lot of times like he was a knucklehead or disinterested. It culminated with the loss to Baldomir where imo he got something taken from him that he would never get back, his momentum and psyche were shot to shit at that point.
Beating Amir Khan will get it back though 8)
But honestly Majesty, HONESTLY?!??! Did you immediately regret typing that afterwards? I hope so...
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Ah shit, Majesty's delusions forgot to make me include this.
A FOCUSED Zab is going to beat anyone in the division.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty?! I'm not trying to debate basketball here but that was inexcusably bad. If you said Zab was the Tracy McGrady of boxing then yea you would have a more valid point. Oh well, gah that one was frustrating.
Zab is an extremely talented fighter, obviously we know now that it was foolish for some like those on ESPN to call him Pernell Whitaker with power like they did early on. Zab's problem was that he was sooo fast, one of the fastest punchers ever that he never really grew his skillset beyond that. He still made to many mistakes and that's what cost him against the top flight opposition. Stupid mistakes like pulling straight backwards, dropping his hands after punches, never figuring out a solution to stop those right hands, loading up on single punches to much, ect. Basically he fought a lot of times like he was a knucklehead or disinterested. It culminated with the loss to Baldomir where imo he got something taken from him that he would never get back, his momentum and psyche were shot to shit at that point.
Beating Amir Khan will get it back though 8)
But honestly Majesty, HONESTLY?!??! Did you immediately regret typing that afterwards? I hope so...
No, he is exactly like LeBron James.
LeBron James is made for the regular season, he has the best stats and mvp etc etc all that stuff. But when the post season comes, and he has to step up and its do or die, he doesn't show up or he chokes and they lose. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next Michael Jordan yet he isn't even close he's been in the league 7 years only been to the finals once and got swept and hasn't even won the eastern conference since then. LeBron has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan, or Kobe, or Magic or Byrd had. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
Zab Judah is just like that, he is made for the "regular season" of boxing. He can show you all the talent get all the accolades, but then when the post season comes, as in when he is in a fight where he has to step up, dig deep or go do or die, he 'doesn't show up' or he chokes and he loses. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next phenom in boxing but he hasn't been anywhere close to that. Zab has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the mentality if a Floyd Mayweather, of a Pernell Whitaker or all the greats they tried to put him in a class with before he'd even accomplished anything. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
That's why I make that comparison, and it should make sense.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty?! I'm not trying to debate basketball here but that was inexcusably bad. If you said Zab was the Tracy McGrady of boxing then yea you would have a more valid point. Oh well, gah that one was frustrating.
Zab is an extremely talented fighter, obviously we know now that it was foolish for some like those on ESPN to call him Pernell Whitaker with power like they did early on. Zab's problem was that he was sooo fast, one of the fastest punchers ever that he never really grew his skillset beyond that. He still made to many mistakes and that's what cost him against the top flight opposition. Stupid mistakes like pulling straight backwards, dropping his hands after punches, never figuring out a solution to stop those right hands, loading up on single punches to much, ect. Basically he fought a lot of times like he was a knucklehead or disinterested. It culminated with the loss to Baldomir where imo he got something taken from him that he would never get back, his momentum and psyche were shot to shit at that point.
Beating Amir Khan will get it back though 8)
But honestly Majesty, HONESTLY?!??! Did you immediately regret typing that afterwards? I hope so...
No, he is exactly like LeBron James.
LeBron James is made for the regular season, he has the best stats and mvp etc etc all that stuff. But when the post season comes, and he has to step up and its do or die, he doesn't show up or he chokes and they lose. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next Michael Jordan yet he isn't even close he's been in the league 7 years only been to the finals once and got swept and hasn't even won the eastern conference since then. LeBron has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan, or Kobe, or Magic or Byrd had. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
Zab Judah is just like that, he is made for the "regular season" of boxing. He can show you all the talent get all the accolades, but then when the post season comes, as in when he is in a fight where he has to step up, dig deep or go do or die, he 'doesn't show up' or he chokes and he loses. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next phenom in boxing but he hasn't been anywhere close to that. Zab has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the mentality if a Floyd Mayweather, of a Pernell Whitaker or all the greats they tried to put him in a class with before he'd even accomplished anything. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
That's why I make that comparison, and it should make sense.
He averages almost 30 points and 10 rebounds per game in post season play. That's not exactly choking. That's why I don't get the comparison. Take a look at the link below and compare PPG in regular season vs. post season.
NBA.com : LeBron James Career Stats Page
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty?! I'm not trying to debate basketball here but that was inexcusably bad. If you said Zab was the Tracy McGrady of boxing then yea you would have a more valid point. Oh well, gah that one was frustrating.
Zab is an extremely talented fighter, obviously we know now that it was foolish for some like those on ESPN to call him Pernell Whitaker with power like they did early on. Zab's problem was that he was sooo fast, one of the fastest punchers ever that he never really grew his skillset beyond that. He still made to many mistakes and that's what cost him against the top flight opposition. Stupid mistakes like pulling straight backwards, dropping his hands after punches, never figuring out a solution to stop those right hands, loading up on single punches to much, ect. Basically he fought a lot of times like he was a knucklehead or disinterested. It culminated with the loss to Baldomir where imo he got something taken from him that he would never get back, his momentum and psyche were shot to shit at that point.
Beating Amir Khan will get it back though 8)
But honestly Majesty, HONESTLY?!??! Did you immediately regret typing that afterwards? I hope so...
No, he is exactly like LeBron James.
LeBron James is made for the regular season, he has the best stats and mvp etc etc all that stuff. But when the post season comes, and he has to step up and its do or die, he doesn't show up or he chokes and they lose. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next Michael Jordan yet he isn't even close he's been in the league 7 years only been to the finals once and got swept and hasn't even won the eastern conference since then. LeBron has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan, or Kobe, or Magic or Byrd had. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
Zab Judah is just like that, he is made for the "regular season" of boxing. He can show you all the talent get all the accolades, but then when the post season comes, as in when he is in a fight where he has to step up, dig deep or go do or die, he 'doesn't show up' or he chokes and he loses. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next phenom in boxing but he hasn't been anywhere close to that. Zab has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the mentality if a Floyd Mayweather, of a Pernell Whitaker or all the greats they tried to put him in a class with before he'd even accomplished anything. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
That's why I make that comparison, and it should make sense.
He averages almost 30 points and 10 rebounds per game in post season play. That's not exactly choking. That's why I don't get the comparison. Take a look at the link below and compare PPG in regular season vs. post season.
NBA.com : LeBron James Career Stats Page
Yeah but what they won't tell you is in some of the most important games for the Cavs he'll lead his team in turnovers. That's why I say he chokes.
For instance the Boston series this year, sure he got his triple double, but he also had 9 turnovers, 6 of which was without any defenders really on him. In the final 8 minutes of the game he barely shot the ball, and if he touched it he gave it away. See he gets his stats 30 points etc, but it doesn't produce victories in the games it counts because he does other things that prevent it. And in the final minutes, with the game still in reach, he just gave up, he stopped trying and was complacent on the court, and his team soon followed suit not even fouling in the last moments of the game. LeBron waved the white flag first with the game still in reach and his team basically followed suit. He crumbles under pressure, he gets his stats because thats how talented he is, but he doesn't mentally have the makeup of a great. Thats why I say he has batman talent with a Robin mentality. get what I mean?
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty?! I'm not trying to debate basketball here but that was inexcusably bad. If you said Zab was the Tracy McGrady of boxing then yea you would have a more valid point. Oh well, gah that one was frustrating.
Zab is an extremely talented fighter, obviously we know now that it was foolish for some like those on ESPN to call him Pernell Whitaker with power like they did early on. Zab's problem was that he was sooo fast, one of the fastest punchers ever that he never really grew his skillset beyond that. He still made to many mistakes and that's what cost him against the top flight opposition. Stupid mistakes like pulling straight backwards, dropping his hands after punches, never figuring out a solution to stop those right hands, loading up on single punches to much, ect. Basically he fought a lot of times like he was a knucklehead or disinterested. It culminated with the loss to Baldomir where imo he got something taken from him that he would never get back, his momentum and psyche were shot to shit at that point.
Beating Amir Khan will get it back though 8)
But honestly Majesty, HONESTLY?!??! Did you immediately regret typing that afterwards? I hope so...
No, he is exactly like LeBron James.
LeBron James is made for the regular season, he has the best stats and mvp etc etc all that stuff. But when the post season comes, and he has to step up and its do or die, he doesn't show up or he chokes and they lose. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next Michael Jordan yet he isn't even close he's been in the league 7 years only been to the finals once and got swept and hasn't even won the eastern conference since then. LeBron has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan, or Kobe, or Magic or Byrd had. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
Zab Judah is just like that, he is made for the "regular season" of boxing. He can show you all the talent get all the accolades, but then when the post season comes, as in when he is in a fight where he has to step up, dig deep or go do or die, he 'doesn't show up' or he chokes and he loses. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next phenom in boxing but he hasn't been anywhere close to that. Zab has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the mentality if a Floyd Mayweather, of a Pernell Whitaker or all the greats they tried to put him in a class with before he'd even accomplished anything. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
That's why I make that comparison, and it should make sense.
He averages almost 30 points and 10 rebounds per game in post season play. That's not exactly choking. That's why I don't get the comparison. Take a look at the link below and compare PPG in regular season vs. post season.
NBA.com : LeBron James Career Stats Page
Yeah but what they won't tell you is in some of the most important games for the Cavs he'll lead his team in turnovers. That's why I say he chokes.
For instance the Boston series this year, sure he got his triple double, but he also had 9 turnovers, 6 of which was without any defenders really on him. In the final 8 minutes of the game he barely shot the ball, and if he touched it he gave it away. See he gets his stats 30 points etc, but it doesn't produce victories in the games it counts because he does other things that prevent it. He crumbles under pressure, he gets his stats because thats how talented he is, but he doesn't mentally have the makeup of a great. Thats why I say he has batman talent with a Robin mentality. get what I mean?
So if you look at the turnovers stat yes it does go up from 3.29 per game to 3.73 per game.
This is getting to the point of splitting hairs really. Yeah he had a bad game against Boston with turnovers, hardly enough to call him a choke artist. Basketball is a team sport, the reason they lost does not come down exclusively to him, it's a team loss. It's not like he's falling apart at the highest levels, he just had a bad game.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty?! I'm not trying to debate basketball here but that was inexcusably bad. If you said Zab was the Tracy McGrady of boxing then yea you would have a more valid point. Oh well, gah that one was frustrating.
Zab is an extremely talented fighter, obviously we know now that it was foolish for some like those on ESPN to call him Pernell Whitaker with power like they did early on. Zab's problem was that he was sooo fast, one of the fastest punchers ever that he never really grew his skillset beyond that. He still made to many mistakes and that's what cost him against the top flight opposition. Stupid mistakes like pulling straight backwards, dropping his hands after punches, never figuring out a solution to stop those right hands, loading up on single punches to much, ect. Basically he fought a lot of times like he was a knucklehead or disinterested. It culminated with the loss to Baldomir where imo he got something taken from him that he would never get back, his momentum and psyche were shot to shit at that point.
Beating Amir Khan will get it back though 8)
But honestly Majesty, HONESTLY?!??! Did you immediately regret typing that afterwards? I hope so...
No, he is exactly like LeBron James.
LeBron James is made for the regular season, he has the best stats and mvp etc etc all that stuff. But when the post season comes, and he has to step up and its do or die, he doesn't show up or he chokes and they lose. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next Michael Jordan yet he isn't even close he's been in the league 7 years only been to the finals once and got swept and hasn't even won the eastern conference since then. LeBron has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan, or Kobe, or Magic or Byrd had. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
Zab Judah is just like that, he is made for the "regular season" of boxing. He can show you all the talent get all the accolades, but then when the post season comes, as in when he is in a fight where he has to step up, dig deep or go do or die, he 'doesn't show up' or he chokes and he loses. Yet he was hyped like he was gonna be the next phenom in boxing but he hasn't been anywhere close to that. Zab has all the skills in the world, but he doesn't have the mentality if a Floyd Mayweather, of a Pernell Whitaker or all the greats they tried to put him in a class with before he'd even accomplished anything. Batman skills, Robin mentality.
That's why I make that comparison, and it should make sense.
He averages almost 30 points and 10 rebounds per game in post season play. That's not exactly choking. That's why I don't get the comparison. Take a look at the link below and compare PPG in regular season vs. post season.
NBA.com : LeBron James Career Stats Page
Yeah but what they won't tell you is in some of the most important games for the Cavs he'll lead his team in turnovers. That's why I say he chokes.
For instance the Boston series this year, sure he got his triple double, but he also had 9 turnovers, 6 of which was without any defenders really on him. In the final 8 minutes of the game he barely shot the ball, and if he touched it he gave it away. See he gets his stats 30 points etc, but it doesn't produce victories in the games it counts because he does other things that prevent it. He crumbles under pressure, he gets his stats because thats how talented he is, but he doesn't mentally have the makeup of a great. Thats why I say he has batman talent with a Robin mentality. get what I mean?
So if you look at the turnovers stat yes it does go up from 3.29 per game to 3.73 per game.
This is getting to the point of splitting hairs really. Yeah he had a bad game against Boston with turnovers, hardly enough to call him a choke artist. Basketball is a team sport, the reason they lost does not come down exclusively to him, it's a team loss. It's not like he's falling apart at the highest levels, he just had a bad game.
How many 'bad games' in the postseason is LeBron allowed? His team has had the best record in the East for two seasons in a row, and in each of those seasons he's failed to win the east or even make it to the finals. Actually the one time he made it to the finals was when he was 22 and not prepared I'll admit for the spurs. You don't have the best record in the regular season 2 years in a row to "not show up" in the playoffs. Know what I mean?
This is why I compare him to Zab exclusively. Because like LeBron. If you bring up the times which Zab hasn't stepped up, people bring up his great performances and say "he wasn't himself, he had a bad night, if a focused Zab Judah shows up he beats anyone." How many times does Judah have to lose at the top before people realize he isn't as great as people made him out to be and doesn't have the mentality to be that great?
And as far as LeBron goes im not the only one who feels that way, there are many NBA writers who feel that LeBron just isn't the next "one" they all made him out to be. there is absolutely no doubt he is one of the best pure talents.
There is no one that has that kind of size strength and ability of LeBron James its second to none. But he is the proof that it takes more then just talent to win a ring. basketball is a team sport yeah. But when the rest of your team is stepping up and having their best seasons and you are in there to be the closer and put games away. Like something a Kobe Bryant would do and is there to do, LeBron you'd expect would do the same, but he doesn't, he doesn't have the killer do or die mentality that Jordan did or Kobe does. NBA greats that have said he was the best player in the league last year(people like Jerry West) this year say they question his will. So it isn't an isolated thought.
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Charles Barkley would explain it better, and Charles considers LeBron the best in the league right now but even he has been disappointed in him.
it wasn't just the bad game, it is his mentality during those games. It's not like he had a bad game but he was still trying to make it work, it was more like, bad game and he was content to not do anything after a certain point.
YouTube - Charles Barkley "I'm 100 % Dissapointed In LeBron James".flv
"I'm 100 percent disappointed, not the fact that he didn't have a good game. But his mentality about it.. I go back I played against Jordan, Malone, Ewing, their gun was gonna be empty by the end of the game, I did not see that tonight, it happened in game 2 but tonight in the biggest game of THE SEASON. This was the biggest game of the season, I did not see the aggressive that I need to see from an MVP at all."
There is no reason why someone who can produce numbers and stats like this guy can, cannot produce in the most crucial games of the season.
Like Zab, in the sense that there is no reason why someone as talented as he is, cannot produce in the most important fights in his career. It wouldn't surprise me if he lost to Khan really. Zab does so great in other fights he looks like a world beater, but in the most crucial fights of his career, he doesn't show up. Alright he showed up once against Cory Spinks.... yeah...
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls
Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.
Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls
Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.
Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?
the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.
And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying.
This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMYK...eature=related
here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"
I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying.
This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMYKBtl5Xw&feature=related
here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"
I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.
here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0&NR
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying.
This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMYKBtl5Xw&feature=related
here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"
I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.
here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0&NR
So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Man it's definitely a monday, Arguing with Majesty over trivial comparisons, waiting for him to reply while he keeps revising his history.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls
Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.
Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?
the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.
And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the
great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.
I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying.
This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMYKBtl5Xw&feature=related
here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"
I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.
here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0&NR
So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?
Of course he has. How often this season though? and how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNl9P04gXKA
Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.
-
Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying.
This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMYKBtl5Xw&feature=related
here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"
I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.
here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0&NR
So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?
Of course he has. How often this season though? and
how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNl9P04gXKA
Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.
Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls
Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.
Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?
the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.
And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the
great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players!
Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.
I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.
I read just fine. You said "ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players." That is a continuance. If you had said "ALL those teams had more then 1 great player or a bunch of decent players" that would have made more sense but you implied more then one great along with a bunch of decent players. So thats why I asked you what "two great players" are on the team since you implied there was more then one along with a bunch of other decent. So don't tell me to learn to read when your grammar is off your mneaning.
David Robinson? At the time David Robinson won with Duncan he was on his way out and about a relevant as Shaq on the Cavs with LeBron James. And seriously, I don't see Rip Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince or Ben Wallace as "great players". Billups maybe. But if you look at it, the only person on their team to go on and have some sort of great success was Billups. Hamilton and Prince are still on the Pistons but without Billups how far did they get? Even when they had Wallace, Hamilton and Prince on the team without Billups how far did they get? Wallace was on the Cavs even and how far did they get?
What the Pistons were, was a bunch of really good players without one great but knew how to play together to beat the best teams. They didn't need a "STANDOUT GREAT OMG" player because they were all good. They didn't have "two greats" on their team because they didn't need it, they were all very good neither of them had to be "greats" to win a title.
And you say Duncan had Ginobli and Parker. Lebron had Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. And they PASSED UP getting Amare Staudamire in order to keep JJ Hickson so obviously they saw something there.
What it comes down to is exactly what you said, it comes down to a great team philosophy and coach as well.
Detroit Pistons are the perfect example of that, they didn't have a "great" because they had philosophy and teamplay. They didn't need to be "greats" and they aren't, because apart from each other they have done terrible with the exception of Billups and even you can agree on that.
[QUOTE=killersheep;885004]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?
You didn't watch the game did you? Lakers were down by a lot about to head into halftime and Kobe made a steal in the last moments and hit a big time three that cut the lead to 6 and then with .4 seconds left got a steal and put up a shot that would have cut it to 4. Kobe was one of the reasons the Lakers were still in that game and they only lost the lead when he had to sit on the bench in the 3rd quarter because he had his 4th foul which even people were saying today was a bad call, so the 3rd quarter ends a tie score, without kobe they wouldnt have gotten that close. Into the 4th the refs gave Kobe a foul the first 10 seconds in the quarter so he sat most of the 4th quarter in foul trouble. he barely had the chance to play and even when he was in Kobe was the reason they were in that game and made nearly all the plays that kept the Lakers in it when he wasn't on the bench Kobe was the reason the Lakers were in the game despite only having 21 points and being in foul trouble and playing limited minutes, whereas Mo Williams was the reason the Cavs were in the game and if he hadn't scored 20+ points in the first half it would have been a blowout loss for the Cavs against Boston. If you want to compare what Kobe did in game 2 to LeBron playing nearly a full game with less fouls and less shots then be my guest
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Re: How good could Zab have been... if?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.
Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?
You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.
Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.
There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."
You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.
So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.
Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist
Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0
Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477
3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398
Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4
So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.
I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.
Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.
lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.
versus Celtics
Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1
Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4
Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21
Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4
Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5
Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.
Stats aren't everything like I keep saying.
This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMYKBtl5Xw&feature=related
here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"
I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.
here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0&NR
So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?
Of course he has. How often this season though? and
how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNl9P04gXKA
Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.
Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?
Here's an interview with Kobe explaining how he just didn't get it done.
"We gave them too many easy baskets and blew too many defensive assignments. That’s it." - Kobe Bryant
Kobe Bryant’s post-Game 2 interview - Lakers blog : The Orange County Register
