Wikileaks? Are you for or against what they are doing?

Wikileaks is all over the news right now. Julian Assange has been arrested on rather obscure sexual crimes allegations. At the same time his organisation has continued to release thousands upon thousands of classified documents. Personally, I admire the man. He has obtained these documents and chosen to release them to the world. They have told us a lot about the Iraq war, they have told us a lot about how the diplomatic world works, they have also further enhanced my critical viewpoints regarding America, the most corrupt crony capitalist state in the world. And also told us how dictatorships in the middle east want to invade Iran, but fail to tell us that most of the middle eastern populations actually view Israel and America as the biggest threats to the region

Apparently we have documents concerning the Bank of America next, which will further validate the claim that the greatest fraud ever commited has been covered up by our governments. Well, not really. Anyone who knows anything knows that mass fraud has been commited and that working people are now being made to pay for it. Austerity anyone? A total sham. But that's the line we are being fed. "We are all in it together". No we aren't. They have been bailed out and now the rest of society is paying for it. Ireland, Spain, Italy, America, Britain....all facing austerity measures? For what? These people did nothing wrong.

So sure, stick Assange behind bars. But the real criminals are running free. There have been no prosecutions for this massive fraud that caused the crisis. But I am digressing, Mastercard and other payment agencies have decided to attack Wikileaks too by cutting off any transactions. Furthermore, the wikileaks site is under constant attack by groups trying to shut off their website.

I look at this as a serious assault on the freedom of information and the freedom of speech. We have someone as ridiculous as Sarah Palin suggestion that Assange be treated as though he were the leader of the Taliban. What? He should be assasinated by the US military? America has lost the plot. Good luck with her as the next president! I look upon Wikileaks as a valuable and important resource and more so in a world where the US media is so lacking. We need this.

So what are your view on wikileaks? Are you for or against it?

Well I think that Assange is probably a completely arrogant self important wankstain who enjoys the feeling of power that he has. He is doing what he is doing with no sense of respect or reponsibility considering the nature of the documents he is handling.

It's all about him being in control and the grandoise feeling of power that he weilds.

As you can imagine I think he is a tosser.

Ironically his revelations have only served to benefit America by demonstrating, as you say above that American involvement in the middle east, and the removal of Iran is actively supported, and even begged for by much of the Arab world.

The legacy of his anti American revelations will likely be that he provided America with a huge shot in the arm in terms of his evidence that an invasion of Iran is wanted by the Arab community at large, and that they regard them as the real threat in the Middle East, more so than Israel.

I think the Americans and the Jews will be loving those revelations.


The rest of the revelations are all fairly mundane and trivial saying nothing much that tabloid papers haven't already said. Aside from America wanting to spy on leading EU ministers (which I think is actually a good idea, I don't trust those cunts at all) I think America's secret side came across as pretty benign.

Assinge will probaly end up serving life in prison, and America will use his revelations to start their next war, without needing to convince anyone as well all know the Arabs hate the Iranians and fear them as much as we do.

The Arabs are more afraid of Israel, and want them to invade Iran. who'd have thunk it!

I voted yes to your poll, I think it does show the secret truths.

But America has come out of it pretty well and so Assange has actually just been their best publicist.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Well I think that Assange is probably a completely arrogant self important wankstain who enjoys the feeling of power that he has. He is doing what he is doing with no sense of respect or reponsibility considering the nature of the documents he is handling.

It's all about him being in control and the grandoise feeling of power that he weilds.

As you can imagine I think he is a tosser.

Ironically his revelations have only served to benefit America by demonstrating, as you say above that American involvement in the middle east, and the removal of Iran is actively supported, and even begged for by much of the Arab world.

The legacy of his anti American revelations will likely be that he provided America with a huge shot in the arm in terms of his evidence that an invasion of Iran is wanted by the Arab community at large, and that they regard them as the real threat in the Middle East, more so than Israel.

I think the Americans and the Jews will be loving those revelations.


The rest of the revelations are all fairly mundane and trivial saying nothing much that tabloid papers haven't already said. Aside from America wanting to spy on leading EU ministers (which I think is actually a good idea, I don't trust those cunts at all) I think America's secret side came across as pretty benign.

Assinge will probaly end up serving life in prison, and America will use his revelations to start their next war, without needing to convince anyone as well all know the Arabs hate the Iranians and fear them as much as we do.

The Arabs are more afraid of Israel, and want them to invade Iran. who'd have thunk it!

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Absolutely not.

The documents show that dictators want rid of Iran. And we know that America wants it too. So what? So we should have listened to Hitler and bowed down to his wishes against the wishes of the general populations? So America should listen to dictatorships such as those from Saudi Arabia? Possibly the worst country in that region in terms of respecting human rights and also the country where most of the 9-11 terrorists came from? Why should America be so close with them and also listening to their opinions? :rolleyes:

Iran is no threat to the region as most of the Arab populations of those countries attest to believing. In fact as has been shown, most of those people believe Israel and America to be the biggest threats to the region. And historical facts support their viewpoints.

These releases make Israel look awful and America too. But what is even worse is that on the news yesterday I see that America has given up on trying to bribe Israel with giving up on the building of illegal settlements. Now why should America even need to be bribing Israel on something that is a clear violation of international law?

Bilbo, you have an agenda. That agenda is to oppose me and that is fair enough. But it is beyond me why you would want to oppose someone whose agenda is nothing but moral. For example, how do you validate the continued building of settlements that are clearly illegal? Is that okay because it is Israel carrying out the construction? I don't get why you would defend this? Only a nasty person could support such a thing.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Well I think that Assange is probably a completely arrogant self important wankstain who enjoys the feeling of power that he has. He is doing what he is doing with no sense of respect or reponsibility considering the nature of the documents he is handling.

It's all about him being in control and the grandoise feeling of power that he weilds.

As you can imagine I think he is a tosser.

Ironically his revelations have only served to benefit America by demonstrating, as you say above that American involvement in the middle east, and the removal of Iran is actively supported, and even begged for by much of the Arab world.

The legacy of his anti American revelations will likely be that he provided America with a huge shot in the arm in terms of his evidence that an invasion of Iran is wanted by the Arab community at large, and that they regard them as the real threat in the Middle East, more so than Israel.

I think the Americans and the Jews will be loving those revelations.


The rest of the revelations are all fairly mundane and trivial saying nothing much that tabloid papers haven't already said. Aside from America wanting to spy on leading EU ministers (which I think is actually a good idea, I don't trust those cunts at all) I think America's secret side came across as pretty benign.

Assinge will probaly end up serving life in prison, and America will use his revelations to start their next war, without needing to convince anyone as well all know the Arabs hate the Iranians and fear them as much as we do.

The Arabs are more afraid of Israel, and want them to invade Iran. who'd have thunk it!

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Absolutely not.

The documents show that dictators want rid of Iran. And we know that America wants it too. So what? So we should have listened to Hitler and bowed down to his wishes against the wishes of the general populations? So America should listen to dictatorships such as those from Saudi Arabia? Possibly the worst country in that region in terms of respecting human rights and also the country where most of the 9-11 terrorists came from? Why should America be so close with them and also listening to their opinions? :rolleyes:

Iran is no threat to the region as most of the Arab populations of those countries attest to believing. In fact as has been shown, most of those people believe Israel and America to be the biggest threats to the region. And historical facts support their viewpoints.

These releases make Israel look awful and America too. But what is even worse is that on the news yesterday I see that America has given up on trying to bribe Israel with giving up on the building of illegal settlements. Now why should America even need to be bribing Israel on something that is a clear violation of international law?

Bilbo, you have an agenda. That agenda is to oppose me and that is fair enough. But it is beyond me why you would want to oppose someone whose agenda is nothing but moral. For example, how do you validate the continued building of settlements that are clearly illegal? Is that okay because it is Israel carrying out the construction? I don't get why you would defend this? Only a nasty person could support such a thing.

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haha that made me laugh. Like there are so many democracies in the Arab world ;D How do they make Israel look awful exactly?

I'm off out now Miles mate but I am genuinely interested as to how you think these revelations have made America look bad?

I think most reports I have seen have been very positive about how America acts in secret.

And the fact that even the Arabs themselves are more concerned about Iran than Israel is a massive blow to your pro Chomsky Finkelstein Jew hating allies. ;D

Thanks to Assange America now have the backing of the Arab world to sort out the growing Iranian menace. There were no great revelations against America at all. No sinister plots, no massive corruption or secret assassinations, tortures, kidnaps etc.

It was mostly rather bland opinion pieces on presidents and persons that are mostly shared by the world at large.

Gordon Brown was a useless prime minister, Britains obsession with being Americas best friend was pathetic, Sarkozy is an arrogant fool, Angela Merkel is a risk avoider, nothing really to shock the world, or even disagree with.

And I've not heard anything bad about Israel in this at all, apart from that they are no longer regarded as the biggest threat in the desert by the Arabs.

Ur off out ??? Bilbo stop lying. :0p

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Originally Posted by katfight

Ur off out ??? Bilbo stop lying. :0p

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Top level chess game tonight, we're away at Newton Abbott. It's a big top of the table clash :cool:

The life I lead eh Kat, admit it, you want a piece of me :)

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by katfight

Ur off out ??? Bilbo stop lying. :0p

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Top level chess game tonight, we're away at Newton Abbott. It's a big top of the table clash :cool:

The life I lead eh Kat, admit it, you want a piece of me :)

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A friend of mine was a champion chess player down your way. It's a serious sport, full of foul play. You might know him.


I dont really have a view on wikileaks right now, I'm too hungry.

But I'd like to read the highlights of the good stuff. But I can't be assed to read hours about how some American office job thinks the staff tea tastes like shit or that they think Gadaffi is cunt. All a bit normal.

I'd be curious to read some juicy stuff though.

/> <br />
<br /> The life I lead eh Kat, admit it, you want a piece of me <img src="images/smilies/smiley.gif"bord="0" alt="" title="Smiley" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg" />[/QUOTE]<br />
<br />




You got me busted lol

The issue I have with this is that people (the goofball liberal loonies out there like miles and dare I say those even farther to the left than he) will glorify Assange to be some sort of righteous leader trying to spread truth and fact seemingly for no other reasons than he wants to end all wars. The FACT of the situation is that he DOES have an agenda and if "ending all wars" truly is his goal, then why leak information about countries wanting to take out Iran (more specifically Ahmidinijad[sp?]). Just the leaking of that information alone is a threat to national security, we're talking about a nation that is soon to have nuclear capabilities (albeit with shitty North Korean rockets, but it'll still affect our Allies in that area and maybe even those in Europe).

Assange is just your typical narcissistic leftist anarchist who wants to take El Che's place on the red t-shirts sold at head shops.


As for what should be done about him, well #1 We demolish his sources because leaking secrets is basically treason or at best espionage #2 He controls the site, he produced the forum for it, and he should be held accountable for what he's done and apparently unlike you miles, I consider it a very serious threat to national security and the economy as well now that they've delved into that as well.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

The issue I have with this is that people (the goofball liberal loonies out there like miles and dare I say those even farther to the left than he) will glorify Assange to be some sort of righteous leader trying to spread truth and fact seemingly for no other reasons than he wants to end all wars. The FACT of the situation is that he DOES have an agenda and if "ending all wars" truly is his goal, then why leak information about countries wanting to take out Iran (more specifically Ahmidinijad[sp?]). Just the leaking of that information alone is a threat to national security, we're talking about a nation that is soon to have nuclear capabilities (albeit with shitty North Korean rockets, but it'll still affect our Allies in that area and maybe even those in Europe).

Assange is just your typical narcissistic leftist anarchist who wants to take El Che's place on the red t-shirts sold at head shops.


As for what should be done about him, well #1 We demolish his sources because leaking secrets is basically treason or at best espionage #2 He controls the site, he produced the forum for it, and he should be held accountable for what he's done and apparently unlike you miles, I consider it a very serious threat to national security and the economy as well now that they've delved into that as well.

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I think I agree with the treason thing.
But then we have total freedom of speech, Geneva conventions, rules of engament its confusing to know where to draw the line in this high tech world of info with no secrets.

This type of stuff isnt good for anyone, it will force some agencies deeper under ground (thats a worry because these are usually full of humans with zero conscious: they only have agendas. (The ones who run such things as counter espionage). That type of secrecy leads to some sectors having zero accountability.
(Its exactly what they want too) which makes them even worse.

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

The issue I have with this is that people (the goofball liberal loonies out there like miles and dare I say those even farther to the left than he) will glorify Assange to be some sort of righteous leader trying to spread truth and fact seemingly for no other reasons than he wants to end all wars. The FACT of the situation is that he DOES have an agenda and if "ending all wars" truly is his goal, then why leak information about countries wanting to take out Iran (more specifically Ahmidinijad[sp?]). Just the leaking of that information alone is a threat to national security, we're talking about a nation that is soon to have nuclear capabilities (albeit with shitty North Korean rockets, but it'll still affect our Allies in that area and maybe even those in Europe).

Assange is just your typical narcissistic leftist anarchist who wants to take El Che's place on the red t-shirts sold at head shops.


As for what should be done about him, well #1 We demolish his sources because leaking secrets is basically treason or at best espionage #2 He controls the site, he produced the forum for it, and he should be held accountable for what he's done and apparently unlike you miles, I consider it a very serious threat to national security and the economy as well now that they've delved into that as well.

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I think I agree with the treason thing.
But then we have total freedom of speech, Geneva conventions, rules of engament its confusing to know where to draw the line in this high tech world of info with no secrets.

This type of stuff isnt good for anyone, it will force some agencies deeper under ground (thats a worry because these are usually full of humans with zero conscious: they only have agendas. (The ones who run such things as counter espionage). That type of secrecy leads to some sectors having zero accountability.
(Its exactly what they want too) which makes them even worse.

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I don't think this has anything to do with freedom of speech. They are basically stealing classified information, it's a serious threat indeed. And Assange doesn't do it in even a halfway responsible way.

I hope he gets life in prison and then America use his revelations as proof that Iran is a threat even to it's neighbours and take them out.

It's been a real shot in the arm for America and Israel in the opinions of most I think.

I even found conspiracy theories online that say Assange is actually working for the CIA as a propagandist to try and paint Israel in a good light and twist scenarios in the middle east to portray Iran as the bad guys. Lack of evidence against Israel is a proof of a cover up it seems. I imagine this the viewpoint that Miles will be trumpeting when he comes back :D

Yeah your right, its unfortunate but national security is of course a necessity.

Im not so much talking about this area of info and its direct repercussions but it will stem down into other areas of security now too. Fear breeds contempt and both grow faster when pushed underground.

I just dont like the scruples of those who are behind some things in each country and how they actually operate outside of the law already.

This will do more damage than good in many areas it could have them all re evaluate structures of whos who and who is privy to certain info which will send them into a protective void that will then give them more free reign to act in their area without fear of having to answer to anyone, that could spell out future corruption to some human rights.

I feel pretty ambivalent about it to be honest. Not really sure what my thoughts our.

I did listen to an ex-spy say that she thought it might have been the CIA who arranged for the information to be leaked as a psy-ops operation (not that the wikileaks guy would know this). She said that she thought that they would include one or two pieces of key information (IE the shit about Iran) and a whole bunch of meaningless other stuff in order to shape peoples opinions.

In an ideal world this guy would be considered a valuable member of society. I mean it's a sneak peak into the world we live in. We want the truth.
Problem is, this really isn't an ideal world. Secrets and deception are vital to the point were it is actually irresponsible to do what this guy is doing.

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Originally Posted by katfight

Ur off out ??? Bilbo stop lying. :0p

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A saddo classic right there ;D

3 people have voted yes, so I think that this issue has been hammered out thoroughly enough. Saddo boxing hereby requests that the British government release Julian Assange on bail!

I got a new computer today, so I am quite happy. I am going to download those Horizon documentaries again and this time I am going to try and download the entire file! If this computer goes and dies I will be mildly pissed off. It's not going to happen though, that old computer deserved to die. I might smash it up with a hammer later.

Fucking excellent, I have started downloading the entire file and there is loads of space. That last computer was such a piece of shit. I am well away with these nice big speakers and screen. And it's all in English, I am a pretty happy man right now. No way was there ever a problem with that file. And to think I was reduced to downloading a file half at a time and still have the computer die on me. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by miles

3 people have voted yes, so I think that this issue has been hammered out thoroughly enough. Saddo boxing hereby requests that the British government release Julian Assange on bail!

I got a new computer today, so I am quite happy. I am going to download those Horizon documentaries again and this time I am going to try and download the entire file! If this computer goes and dies I will be mildly pissed off. It's not going to happen though, that old computer deserved to die. I might smash it up with a hammer later.

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haha mate I voted yes! Your poll question was simply have truths been revealed, and of course they have! It doesn't the change the fact that Assange is a slimy cunt and that America have come out of this so well that many arguing that it was the CIA who actually organised the leaks.

You haven't answered any of my questions. The revelations concering the true nature of Arab feeling in the middle East have been very significant.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria are all alarmed by Iran's increasing nuclear menance. They all believe they are the biggest threat to peace in the region.

Yet because you are so commited to your 'Jews and Americans are the real badguys' mindset you just dismiss all of this with a popish wave of your hand.

Iran IS a problem. If they get nuclear missles then the rest of the Arab world will rush to get them too, in the most unstable region in the world. We have Nato about to build a missile defence system on the borders of Eastern Europe, and even the Russians want to join up with us in that. Apart from you, everybody is concerned about Iran.

Did you see the probable Mossad executions last week of two Iranian physicists. Bikers appeared alongside their cars and stuck bombs on the windscreen before accelerating off and blowing the cars sky high James Bond style. It was believed to have been the final hit of Meir Dagan, Israel's head of Mossad before he stepped down. Mossad are fucking awesome, little Ahmadinejad has no clue what he is messing with. His Jew hating regime is going to be crushed in 2011.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

3 people have voted yes, so I think that this issue has been hammered out thoroughly enough. Saddo boxing hereby requests that the British government release Julian Assange on bail!

I got a new computer today, so I am quite happy. I am going to download those Horizon documentaries again and this time I am going to try and download the entire file! If this computer goes and dies I will be mildly pissed off. It's not going to happen though, that old computer deserved to die. I might smash it up with a hammer later.

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haha mate I voted yes! Your poll question was simply have truths been revealed, and of course they have! It doesn't the change the fact that Assange is a slimy cunt and that America have come out of this so well that many arguing that it was the CIA who actually organised the leaks.

You haven't answered any of my questions. The revelations concering the true nature of Arab feeling in the middle East have been very significant.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria are all alarmed by Iran's increasing nuclear menance. They all believe they are the biggest threat to peace in the region.

Yet because you are so commited to you 'Jews and Americans are the real badguys' mindset you just dismiss all of this with a popish wave of your hand.

Iran IS a problem. If they get nuclear missles then the rest of the Arab world will rush to get them too, in the most unstable region in the world. We have Nato about to build a missile defence system on the borders of Eastern Europe, and even the Russians want to join up with us in that. Apart from you, everybody is concerned about Iran.

Did you see the probable Mossad executions last week of two Iranian physicists. Bikers appeared alongside their cars and stuck bombs on the windscreen before accelerating off and blowing the cars sky high James Bond style. It was believed to have been the final hit of Meir Dagan, Israel's head of Mossad before he stepped down. Mossad are fucking awesome, little Ahmadinejad has no clue what he is messing with. His Jew hating regime is going to be crushed in 2011.

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Ah, I have just got my new computer up and running so haven't got around to debating properly, but I shall indulge you now.

For sure, the documents show us that a number of leaders in the Middle East are concerned about Iran and want them to be dealt with. But you have to question their motives in saying such things. Israel has an obvious agenda. Saudi Arabia is a large oil supplying nation and a very close ally of America and surely wouldn't mind too much if one of their competitors were to be eradicated. And let's not forget how many of these countries have a vested interest in America and have US bases. Also you have to consider that some of these countries are effectively dictatorships themselves. Saudi Arabia is the harshest regime in the region. For instance, we can't really criticise Iran on their human rights if we are going to ignore Saudi Arabia's approach to the same issues. We are listening to people who have absolutely no respect for democracy and in doing so also show our complete disregard of democracy. We give no consideration to the opinions of the citizens of these countries and polls tell us that these citizens do NOT view Iran as a threat. It isn't only me saying that America and Israel are the biggest threats to the region. It is the entire Arab world too.

We are constantly being told of the threat of Iran's nuclear weapons programme, but there is really very little evidence to suggest that they are even working on one. And even if they were working on something more than to provide it's own population with affordable electricity, then how can we criticise them when Israel is right there on the border armed up to the teeth with nuclear weapons? It is the height of hypocrisy and therefore disolves the entire argument. If the region were nuclear free and there was considerable evidence against Iran then we would have a case against them, but as things stand there is absolutely no way we can attack Iran for it. Otherwise, we would have to invade Israel and also many other countries around the world and would also have to eradicate our own enormous stockpiles. It might also be argued that a nuclear Iranian state would further bring peace to the region. If you nuke a country and know that a nuke is coming right back at you then you have a dangerous, but relatively stable standoff. Seoul hasn't gone down in a plume of smoke and Tel Aviv won't either. I was reading that Hezbollah now has long range weapons that cover all of Israel. On paper this sounds terrible, but really it might prove good for the region. Israel will think twice before invading again. It is a deterrent.

I didn't read that story, but it sounds quite interesting. I differ in that I think Mossad are an awful organisation and and represent nothing more than state sponsored terrorism. I think Ahmadinejad knows exactly what he's dealing with. He is governing a country surrounded by threats. Israel wants a bloodbath and there are US bases in most of the countries surrounding Iran. They are hemmed in and threatened from all sides. From that perspective, I think he is doing a fairly respectable job and is dealing with it fairly well. That is not to say that I approve of the Iranian regime because I do not. However, I do not approve of most regimes in the world and I certainly do not support the invasion of independant nations without sufficient justification. Otherwise we should be orchestrating regime change the world over and also organising revolutions in our own countries.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

3 people have voted yes, so I think that this issue has been hammered out thoroughly enough. Saddo boxing hereby requests that the British government release Julian Assange on bail!

I got a new computer today, so I am quite happy. I am going to download those Horizon documentaries again and this time I am going to try and download the entire file! If this computer goes and dies I will be mildly pissed off. It's not going to happen though, that old computer deserved to die. I might smash it up with a hammer later.

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haha mate I voted yes! Your poll question was simply have truths been revealed, and of course they have! It doesn't the change the fact that Assange is a slimy cunt and that America have come out of this so well that many arguing that it was the CIA who actually organised the leaks.

You haven't answered any of my questions. The revelations concering the true nature of Arab feeling in the middle East have been very significant.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria are all alarmed by Iran's increasing nuclear menance. They all believe they are the biggest threat to peace in the region.

Yet because you are so commited to you 'Jews and Americans are the real badguys' mindset you just dismiss all of this with a popish wave of your hand.

Iran IS a problem. If they get nuclear missles then the rest of the Arab world will rush to get them too, in the most unstable region in the world. We have Nato about to build a missile defence system on the borders of Eastern Europe, and even the Russians want to join up with us in that. Apart from you, everybody is concerned about Iran.

Did you see the probable Mossad executions last week of two Iranian physicists. Bikers appeared alongside their cars and stuck bombs on the windscreen before accelerating off and blowing the cars sky high James Bond style. It was believed to have been the final hit of Meir Dagan, Israel's head of Mossad before he stepped down. Mossad are fucking awesome, little Ahmadinejad has no clue what he is messing with. His Jew hating regime is going to be crushed in 2011.

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Ah, I have just got my new computer up and running so haven't got around to debating properly, but I shall indulge you now.

For sure, the documents show us that a number of leaders in the Middle East are concerned about Iran and want them to be dealt with. But you have to question their motives in saying such things. Israel has an obvious agenda. Saudi Arabia is a large oil supplying nation and a very close ally of America and surely wouldn't mind too much if one of their competitors were to be eradicated. And let's not forget how many of these countries have a vested interest in America and have US bases. Also you have to consider that some of these countries are effectively dictatorships themselves. Saudi Arabia is the harshest regime in the region. For instance, we can't really criticise Iran on their human rights if we are going to ignore Saudi Arabia's approach to the same issues. We are listening to people who have absolutely no respect for democracy and in doing so also show our complete disregard of democracy. We give no consideration to the opinions of the citizens of these countries and polls tell us that these citizens do NOT view Iran as a threat. It isn't only me saying that America and Israel are the biggest threats to the region. It is the entire Arab world too.

We are constantly being told of the threat of Iran's nuclear weapons programme, but there is really very little evidence to suggest that they are even working on one. And even if they were working on something more than to provide it's own population with affordable electricity, then how can we criticise them when Israel is right there on the border armed up to the teeth with nuclear weapons? It is the height of hypocrisy and therefore disolves the entire argument. If the region were nuclear free and there was considerable evidence against Iran then we would have a case against them, but as things stand there is absolutely no way we can attack Iran for it. Otherwise, we would have to invade Israel and also many other countries around the world and would also have to eradicate our own enormous stockpiles. It might also be argued that a nuclear Iranian state would further bring peace to the region. If you nuke a country and know that a nuke is coming right back at you then you have a dangerous, but relatively stable standoff. Seoul hasn't gone down in a plume of smoke and Tel Aviv won't either. I was reading that Hezbollah now has long range weapons that cover all of Israel. On paper this sounds terrible, but really it might prove good for the region. Israel will think twice before invading again. It is a deterrent.

I didn't read that story, but it sounds quite interesting. I differ in that I think Mossad are an awful organisation and and represent nothing more than state sponsored terrorism. I think Ahmadinejad knows exactly what he's dealing with. He is governing a country surrounded by threats. Israel wants a bloodbath and there are US bases in most of the countries surrounding Iran. They are hemmed in and threatened from all sides. From that perspective, I think he is doing a fairly respectable job and is dealing with it fairly well. That is not to say that I approve of the Iranian regime because I do not. However, I do not approve of most regimes in the world and I certainly do not support the invasion of independant nations without sufficient justification. Otherwise we should be orchestrating regime change the world over and also organising revolutions in our own countries.

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You still didn't answer any of my questions though!

1. What wikileaks revelations made Israel look bad?
2. What wikileaks revelations in particular confirmed your opinion of America being a corrupt, phoney evil nation?
3. You dismiss the rantings of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria as being meaningless because they are corrupt dictatorships and thus their views cannot be trusted. But what nations in the middle east are democracies? I can only think of one and you hate them most of all!
4. If you can't trust the Arab nations when they rant against Iran, how can you trust them when they rant against Israel?

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

3 people have voted yes, so I think that this issue has been hammered out thoroughly enough. Saddo boxing hereby requests that the British government release Julian Assange on bail!

I got a new computer today, so I am quite happy. I am going to download those Horizon documentaries again and this time I am going to try and download the entire file! If this computer goes and dies I will be mildly pissed off. It's not going to happen though, that old computer deserved to die. I might smash it up with a hammer later.

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haha mate I voted yes! Your poll question was simply have truths been revealed, and of course they have! It doesn't the change the fact that Assange is a slimy cunt and that America have come out of this so well that many arguing that it was the CIA who actually organised the leaks.

You haven't answered any of my questions. The revelations concering the true nature of Arab feeling in the middle East have been very significant.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria are all alarmed by Iran's increasing nuclear menance. They all believe they are the biggest threat to peace in the region.

Yet because you are so commited to you 'Jews and Americans are the real badguys' mindset you just dismiss all of this with a popish wave of your hand.

Iran IS a problem. If they get nuclear missles then the rest of the Arab world will rush to get them too, in the most unstable region in the world. We have Nato about to build a missile defence system on the borders of Eastern Europe, and even the Russians want to join up with us in that. Apart from you, everybody is concerned about Iran.

Did you see the probable Mossad executions last week of two Iranian physicists. Bikers appeared alongside their cars and stuck bombs on the windscreen before accelerating off and blowing the cars sky high James Bond style. It was believed to have been the final hit of Meir Dagan, Israel's head of Mossad before he stepped down. Mossad are fucking awesome, little Ahmadinejad has no clue what he is messing with. His Jew hating regime is going to be crushed in 2011.

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Ah, I have just got my new computer up and running so haven't got around to debating properly, but I shall indulge you now.

For sure, the documents show us that a number of leaders in the Middle East are concerned about Iran and want them to be dealt with. But you have to question their motives in saying such things. Israel has an obvious agenda. Saudi Arabia is a large oil supplying nation and a very close ally of America and surely wouldn't mind too much if one of their competitors were to be eradicated. And let's not forget how many of these countries have a vested interest in America and have US bases. Also you have to consider that some of these countries are effectively dictatorships themselves. Saudi Arabia is the harshest regime in the region. For instance, we can't really criticise Iran on their human rights if we are going to ignore Saudi Arabia's approach to the same issues. We are listening to people who have absolutely no respect for democracy and in doing so also show our complete disregard of democracy. We give no consideration to the opinions of the citizens of these countries and polls tell us that these citizens do NOT view Iran as a threat. It isn't only me saying that America and Israel are the biggest threats to the region. It is the entire Arab world too.

We are constantly being told of the threat of Iran's nuclear weapons programme, but there is really very little evidence to suggest that they are even working on one. And even if they were working on something more than to provide it's own population with affordable electricity, then how can we criticise them when Israel is right there on the border armed up to the teeth with nuclear weapons? It is the height of hypocrisy and therefore disolves the entire argument. If the region were nuclear free and there was considerable evidence against Iran then we would have a case against them, but as things stand there is absolutely no way we can attack Iran for it. Otherwise, we would have to invade Israel and also many other countries around the world and would also have to eradicate our own enormous stockpiles. It might also be argued that a nuclear Iranian state would further bring peace to the region. If you nuke a country and know that a nuke is coming right back at you then you have a dangerous, but relatively stable standoff. Seoul hasn't gone down in a plume of smoke and Tel Aviv won't either. I was reading that Hezbollah now has long range weapons that cover all of Israel. On paper this sounds terrible, but really it might prove good for the region. Israel will think twice before invading again. It is a deterrent.

I didn't read that story, but it sounds quite interesting. I differ in that I think Mossad are an awful organisation and and represent nothing more than state sponsored terrorism. I think Ahmadinejad knows exactly what he's dealing with. He is governing a country surrounded by threats. Israel wants a bloodbath and there are US bases in most of the countries surrounding Iran. They are hemmed in and threatened from all sides. From that perspective, I think he is doing a fairly respectable job and is dealing with it fairly well. That is not to say that I approve of the Iranian regime because I do not. However, I do not approve of most regimes in the world and I certainly do not support the invasion of independant nations without sufficient justification. Otherwise we should be orchestrating regime change the world over and also organising revolutions in our own countries.

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You still didn't answer any of my questions though!

1. What wikileaks revelations made Israel look bad?
2. What wikileaks revelations in particular confirmed your opinion of America being a corrupt, phoney evil nation?
3. You dismiss the rantings of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria as being meaningless because they are corrupt dictatorships and thus their views cannot be trusted. But what nations in the middle east are democracies? I can only think of one and you hate them most of all!
4. If you can't trust the Arab nations when they rant against Iran, how can you trust them when they rant against Israel?

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1. To be honest and in a more sober light, I don't think we have learned all that much new about Israel and to be fair to them, they have at least always been open about their intentions regarding Iran. We could argue that they look bad because their diplomats are banging the drums of war, but they are doing this in public too. Either way it is bad as they have no justification in trying to drum up support for any kind of intervention regarding Iran.

2. The prior leaks relating to Iraq reflected extremely badly on the US. In fact, we don't even need the release of secret documents to confirm this view. Everything is pretty much on the record. The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq were two of the most immoral acts we have seen in recent times. How do we know it is corrupt and phoney? One of the best books I have read in the last year was Naomi Klein's "The shock doctrine". It documents in extensive detail the way America has tried to impose it's unjust economic model upon the world over the last 4 decades. Usually with force and by backing criminal juntas. Let's just look at the crony capitalism that has taken place in the past two decades since Clinton deregulated the financial sectors. Just look at how 8 trillion dollars has been used to bail out the financial sector, whilst all around politicians are chanting 'time for austerity....we are all in it together'. No we aren't. Mass fraud has been commited and not one person has gone to jail for it. These are the actions of an unjust, phoney and morally dubious nation. However, America isn't alone in how it has acted. It does lead the way though, considering how much of the worlds wealth is based around US interests.

3. Yes, Israel is a democracy and considering the nature of many of the regimes in the region, this is to be commended. I respect that. However, I cannot respect us listening to dictators who disregard the will of their respective populations. I also cannot respect Israel telling us about the potential dangers of a nuclear Iran when it too is armed up to the teeth. It reeks of double standards and invalidates the argument.

4. When Ahmadinejad rants about Israel I shake my head and frown, but it is just rhetoric being used to make himself look better in the eyes of his nation. I don't think it serves any real purpose to denigrate Israel in such a way, but I do see immense justification in criticising Israel for its treatment of Gaza and repeated imperialist adventures in the region. For all Irans faults, it is not the nation in the region most well known for invading sovereign territories and commiting war crimes. For this you can look no further than Israel. When Israel bangs the drums of war you know they mean it because they have done it repeatedly in the past and gone ahead and moved beyond mere rhetoric.

The Arab population is right in their interpretion as to who the biggest threats in the region are. Common sense and a rudimentary knowledge of history are what informs their perceptions. In our cases, we get the corporate media blindly spouting government press statements and off to war we go. The America public might be gullible, but I distinctly recall polls showing most Brits to be against the Iraq war. This was the same throughout most of Europe actually. Again, this shows that it isn't only Arab dictatorships that have a total disregard for democratic processes.

I can't say I am too surprised that the US are going to go after him, but it is something that I really don't approve of. The US should really think about cleaning up their own house rather than try and go after someone who wants nothing more than to release the truth to the general public.

Assange 'to be charged with espionage' - Yahoo! News UK

I am especially looking forward to seeing the future documents regarding the Bank of America. That might well turn out to be very revealing. I see no way the release of such documents relating to that can harm anybody, though a few might be tempted to get out their pitchforks and rightly so.

So WikiLeaks Is Evil For Releasing Documents... But DynCorp Gets A Pass For Pimping Young Boys To Afghan Cops? | Techdirt

When you compare what Wikileaks has done as compared with what private corporations which are strongly aligned with the US government have been getting up to then you have to seriously begin to question what is going on right now.

The more conservative elements of the media will have us believe that Julian Assange is a terrorist and Sarah Palin has pretty much said that we should string him up with a noose. And yet the US government openly courts business with groups who supply drugs and young boys for a sex party? Of course, the US government tried to hush it up whereas Wikileaks would rather we know about such stories. Wikileaks is making available the truth about what our governments are getting up to and it seems that a lot of it is unwholesome and when laid on the table likely to be frowned upon by most of us. Just like in the 1950's anyone who opposed the US government was called a 'communist', the new buzzword for anyone opposing monolithic and morally dubious regimes is a 'terrorist'. Assange is a 'terrorist'. Liu Xiaobo is guilty of 'state subversion'. How many new buzzwords will we get for what are at the end of the day are just decent people with principles who want to let the world know how it really is?

And also note how Wikileaks didn't actually steal the documents, they obtained them and made them available for release. Other publications such as The Guardian and The New York Times also did the same with these latest documents. Why is Wikileaks being made the target and not these same rather prominent mainstream newspapers. It isn't too difficult to read between the lines.

Those on the left see the situation pretty much for what it is. These are dangerous times. If you go against the government and don't have the backing of large corporate interests then they are going to do everything they can to shut you down. Amazon has been forced to step away from Wikileaks. Mastercard and Paypay are refusing to process transactions to Wikileaks. The Wikileaks site is under constant attack, most likely from government forces. Assange is suddenly is arrested in the UK after being resident for months and after initial charges for sex crimes were dropped due to a lack of evidence. The timing is extremely interesting to say the least.

You can readily donate to the Ku Klux Clan and yet you can't to Wikileaks. That in itself says an awful lot about the power control systems that we have. Wikileaks is too close to the truth for the powers that be to be allowed to go on unchecked. But if you say nice things to the US government and provide young boys and drugs at illicit sex parties? Well, we will look the other way. ;)

This is a very insightful interview with Daniel Ellsberg who was behind the release of the Pentagon Papers which told us a lot more about what was really going on in Vietnam. He points out some of the key criticisms of Obama and one of those criticisms is that he is actually more draconian than Bush and at the very least has perpetuated these so called 'national security' laws. We all now know that the US courts have decreed that it is quite okay for Obama to have assasinated any US citizen or non-US citizen on this planet if he so decrees. Ellsberg also predicts that something will happen to Assange and it has. And let's not forget that Obama the so called Nobel peace prize winner has expanded the war in Afghanistan, supported mass financial fraud and denied US citizens the right to see a doctor free of private corporations. I expanded somewhat with those last few items, but on the whole it was interesting to see what Ellsburg had to say in the context of what we have seen go on. It is an awful state leadership with few redeeming qualities and even freedom of the Internet appears to be going fast AWOL despite telling China that they should be more open. But of course the Ku Klux Klan is still open for business....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ2-P...eature=related

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Originally Posted by miles

This is a very insightful interview with Daniel Ellsberg who was behind the release of the Pentagon Papers which told us a lot more about what was really going on in Vietnam. He points out some of the key criticisms of Obama and one of those criticisms is that he is actually more draconian than Bush and at the very least has perpetuated these so called 'national security' laws. We all now know that the US courts have decreed that it is quite okay for Obama to have assasinated any US citizen or non-US citizen on this planet if he so decrees. Ellsberg also predicts that something will happen to Assange and it has. And let's not forget that Obama the so called Nobel peace prize winner has expanded the war in Afghanistan, supported mass financial fraud and denied US citizens the right to see a doctor free of private corporations. I expanded somewhat with those last few items, but on the whole it was interesting to see what Ellsburg had to say in the context of what we have seen go on. It is an awful state leadership with few redeeming qualities and even freedom of the Internet appears to be going fast AWOL despite telling China that they should be more open. But of course the Ku Klux Klan is still open for business....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ2-PRlbvdo&feature=related

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That was a good interview and like you I agree with much of what he said. Certainly having watched 'The Most Dangerous Man In America' recently the feature length documentary of Elsberg I do have respect for the man and his convictions. I also completely agree that the Nobel Prize to Obama was a complete joke, and he since done nothing to show he deserved such an honour. I happen to think the Nobel Prize is nothing more than a political tool however. This year's nomination annoyed me as well, not because I don't think it wasn't merited, but rather that the intentions for awarding to a jailed Chinese dissident was entirely political aimed to put pressure on China and to align Norway, or at least the Nobel organisers with their Wester allies. I hate the idea of the award altogether to be honest.

Assange, and his subsequent treatment is an interesting subject to speculate on. I do think if America mishandles this they could well end up empowering him and even making a martyr of him to a degree.

I don't see him as comparable to Elsberg, I certainly don't believe him to be a man of integrity like Elsberg, and a lot of his leaks seem to be designed to slander the American government in any way he can, just salacious and scurrilous gossip mostly.

I don't think that compares with Elsberg who had a deep roote commitment to tell the people of America the truth about the Vietnam war, because he believed the situation to be wrong.

Assange would clearly just grab any and all documents that portrayed America an any kind of negative light without any kind of social responsibility at all.


How America responds to him will determine how he is regarded in the long term however. For me, the reveleations of the wikileaks themselves have revealed nothing that I think paints America in a bad light particularly. But they are in danger of handling this situation in an overly ruthless and controlling way, which would ironically do more damage than the wikileaks documents themselves.

But I do agree with more of this than you would probably expect of me Miles.

Saddo's wouldn't let me give you rep so I coolclicked the link instead. But I like Elsberg.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Saddo's wouldn't let me give you rep so I coolclicked the link instead. But I like Elsberg.

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I'm glad we agree on something. I'm not particularly extreme in my views really and simply want power control centres to be held more accountable for their behaviour. Unfortunately with America being at the helm of a lot of things and showing a total disregard for not only citizens globally but also their own citizens, they get the bulk of my ire. Obama's recent tax cut extensions for the rich are a case in point. The man never listens to his population and only ever seems to work for the elite and the corporate interests that have a vested interest in him. It is a rigged system and only pretends at being a democracy. It clearly isn't. That might sound quite extreme, but when you think about it, it really isn't.

I think the guy is a first class douche but I got no issue with Wikileaks. The Soldier that gave them the classified information though...I hope he rots in prison.

I am split on the issue:

ON one hand, it is good that they debunk shady stuff going behind the curtain like some of the Afghanistan files where they show how some massacre have been covered and denied but on the other, I think it is absolutely irresponsible to not cross mark the name of EVERY agents on the field which life can then be seriously threatened. A part is nice but the other is done irresponsibly in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

I think the guy is a first class douche but I got no issue with Wikileaks. The Soldier that gave them the classified information though...I hope he rots in prison.

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They caught him and you can be sure that his future won't be glorious at all and that he'll spend a fair time in military prison for the leak.

I have no sympathy for him... clean your own closet and then come and clean others.

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Originally Posted by vanchilds

i think the guy is a first class douche but i got no issue with wikileaks. The soldier that gave them the classified information though...i hope he rots in prison.

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which prison? ;d :d ;d

Interesting video on the topic

Reason.tv: Is Wikileaks a Force For Good? Four Experts on Our Wiki-Future - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

funny reading what others round the world think...just one thought, a lot of what i hear is a bit off base...true in part, but spun as to sound good

Assange about to be released in the next 5 minutes or so.

Anyone else watching the news?

I want to hear what (if anything) the slimeball has to say.

Assange's lawyer looks like the poster boy for a corrupt fat cat. Look at him!

Why do you think he is such a slimeball, Bilbo? I have been watching interviews with him and I think he carries himself very well. He is articulate and explains himself reasonably enough. He also explains Wikileaks and why they operate and also tells of their vetting process. I don't really understand why you hate him so much, but if that's how you feel then fair enough.

So he's finally being let out on bail? About time. I think all of this has only enhanced the support for Wikileaks and I think they should continue to play a valid role in the future. We need a site like this as the elites with their secrecy have only gone and brought us to war through deception and lies and the media simply lapped up government press releases instead of finding out the truth.

Wikileaks is valid and the response of some of these so called US elites has been borderline insane. Have him shot? Well, in that case let's have Bush brought in for his war crimes? The later is infinitely more reasonable.

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Originally Posted by miles

Why do you think he is such a slimeball, Bilbo? I have been watching interviews with him and I think he carries himself very well. He is articulate and explains himself reasonably enough. He also explains Wikileaks and why they operate and also tells of their vetting process. I don't really understand why you hate him so much, but if that's how you feel then fair enough.

So he's finally being let out on bail? About time. I think all of this has only enhanced the support for Wikileaks and I think they should continue to play a valid role in the future. We need a site like this as the elites with their secrecy have only gone and brought us to war through deception and lies and the media simply lapped up government press releases instead of finding out the truth.

Wikileaks is valid and the response of some of these so called US elites has been borderline insane. Have him shot? Well, in that case let's have Bush brought in for his war crimes? The later is infinitely more reasonable.

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I hate him because he is anti democratic. His site is unnacountable to anyone, they don't handle the information they given responsibiliy. He is a complete hypocritye refusing to explain his own site's finances whilst indiscriminately shining a spotlight on everyone else.

He has betrayed his informant Bradley Manning in failing to hand over any of the promised money for his defence, even Mannin's legal team have now turned on Assange.

You cannot have diplomacy without the ability to say things in confidence, and just taking away people's ability to speak in confidence and betraying the private trust of many individuals from many countries he serves only to damage diplomatic relations between countries and risks the lives of both civilians and military personel.

He himself is unelected, unaccountable and has set himself as an almost God like,dicatatorial figure, who is not answerable to anyone. He once famously wrote 'I am the heart and soul of this organisation, its founder, its philosopher, original coder, organiser, financier and all the rest. If you have a problem with me, piss off'.

Hardly the words of a man with a commitment to democratic process.

What he is doing has nothing to do with freedom of speech. With freedom of speech comes responsibility, and accountability. You need to balance the freedom to publish and all information you like against considerations of privacy and the public interest. Assange doesn't do that. What he does is the equivilent of rifling through people's dustbins. Investigative journalists are subject to certain rules and regulations. They are responsible and accountable for the information they uncover and select to reveal. Assange is not.

He is answerable to no one, he's not elected and he does not conduct himself in a responible way.

I can't stand the man.

In his defence, a close look at the sexual allegations against him highlights the fact that he is clearly on trial for his website rather than being a rapist. Those charges are utterly ridiculous and absurd. I agree with you there is no evidence of any sexual offences being carried out by him at all. The two women both consented to have sex with him, and only cried foul when each found out he had slept with the other. I think one is suing him because he did not use a condom, and the other because he broke the condom he used with her. The two women just sound like opportunists so it was right he got bail.

But it doesn't change the fact that he is a cunt.