If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Froch,

and all the other top 168 pound fighters? Since it is said in the boxing world with Floyd's indefinite hiatus because of legal problems and Pacquiao is cherry picking fighters, they are not worthy to be considered the best in the sport and have been supplanted by Martinez. And since Martinez has no challengers at 160 and he is hoping that those two would jump more weight classes to fight him, but it isn't happening because those 2 aren't taking the risks. Well how about a move up to fight the top 168 pound fighters? Like Andre Ward, Kessler, Froch, Bute, etc. Surely it's much better than trying to make a fight with a 1 hit wonder like Ishida or hoping to fight Chavez Jr. or reality tv boxer Manfredo?

So how about it? Shouldn't the best in the sport test himself against the best from another weight class? Since his weight class is devoid of challenges? And the 168 pound class is one of the deepest in the sport right now.

It really is sad that the legit middleweight king has nobody and I mean NOBODY credible to fight at either 160 or 154 (which he might still be able to make). What the hell happened to those two divisions?

While I appreciate the satire in your post, the ironic thing may be that Martinez might go that route to secure a big payday. But if I were him? I'd start a middleweight Bum of the Month Club.

Sturm, Geale, Sylvester, Zbick, Pirog, Angulo, Cintron, Sechew. Just knock'em off one after another on cable. Make myself so noticeable that the public keeps clamoring for more.

Then hope by years end Vanes Matyrosian or Saul Alvarez has grown into a threat or that Arthur Abraham or Kelly Pavlik move back down.

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.

Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

and all the other top 168 pound fighters? Since it is said in the boxing world with Floyd's indefinite hiatus because of legal problems and Pacquiao is cherry picking fighters, they are not worthy to be considered the best in the sport and have been supplanted by Martinez. And since Martinez has no challengers at 160 and he is hoping that those two would jump more weight classes to fight him, but it isn't happening because those 2 aren't taking the risks. Well how about a move up to fight the top 168 pound fighters? Like Andre Ward, Kessler, Froch, Bute, etc. Surely it's much better than trying to make a fight with a 1 hit wonder like Ishida or hoping to fight Chavez Jr. or reality tv boxer Manfredo?

So how about it? Shouldn't the best in the sport test himself against the best from another weight class? Since his weight class is devoid of challenges? And the 168 pound class is one of the deepest in the sport right now.

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Martinez weight class is 160(middle)!!! If Ward or any of the others want to make that fight, then they should meet in the middle. I'm not a fan of catch weight. But for Martinez to jump weight to 169, he can be putting himself at a disadvantage. Fair fighting is my point. Will Ward or any of the other come down to 160? Better yet, can they without half killing themself?
Martinez is willing to come down to 154 to make a big fight, but no one is speaking his name. Cotto rather wait and fight Jcc Jr and stay on the shelf. Pacman said he will never go back to 150(154). Floyd is retired. Strum don't want it. Angulo don't want it. DLH don't want it for Saul. The only person that want it, no one want to see hm get it. Paul Williams, At least until he get his status back up.
Bottom line, if a suppermiddle weight want to fight Martinez, they should meet in the middle(164). Whomever it will be, I won't expect any of them to blow Martinez out!!!

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?

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There's no 154 champion at the moment. Who do you mean?

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

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But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?

He fought Margo for the WBC light middleweight title 154lb

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

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But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?

He fought Margo for the WBC light middleweight title 154lb

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LOL, yeah like THAT piece of junk means something.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

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But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?

He fought Margo for the WBC light middleweight title 154lb

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LOL, yeah like THAT piece of junk means something.

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So if it means something then Pac can't do it? But if it means nothing and it's a cherry pick catch weight blah blah then it's ok for him to do it? And then you guys all praise him. Double standard the Pac fans use with Margo and Martinez...

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?

He fought Margo for the WBC light middleweight title 154lb

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LOL, yeah like THAT piece of junk means something.

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So if it means something then Pac can't do it? But if it means nothing and it's a cherry pick catch weight blah blah then it's ok for him to do it? And then you guys all praise him. Double standard the Pac fans use with Margo and Martinez...

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Manny fighting bigger men is extremely impressive. But the Margarito fight didn't mean much outside of that did it?

A fight with Sergio Martinez is nothing short of a suicide mission. The equivalent would be JMM fighting a 168 or Floyd fighting a cruiserweight. THAT would be how many divisions Manny would have jumped.

Would it secure him a place in boxing's top 10-15 all-time if he won? Yup.

But given that you can't name ten men in history who have had the success across ten of today's divisions that Manny has, why do you find it useful to say if he doesn't he's being unreasonable?

Before you complain about him, doesn't logic require you to complain about the 99.999% of all figthers who have never tried to fight acrosds ten divisions?

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Originally Posted by Ant Live

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

and all the other top 168 pound fighters? Since it is said in the boxing world with Floyd's indefinite hiatus because of legal problems and Pacquiao is cherry picking fighters, they are not worthy to be considered the best in the sport and have been supplanted by Martinez. And since Martinez has no challengers at 160 and he is hoping that those two would jump more weight classes to fight him, but it isn't happening because those 2 aren't taking the risks. Well how about a move up to fight the top 168 pound fighters? Like Andre Ward, Kessler, Froch, Bute, etc. Surely it's much better than trying to make a fight with a 1 hit wonder like Ishida or hoping to fight Chavez Jr. or reality tv boxer Manfredo?

So how about it? Shouldn't the best in the sport test himself against the best from another weight class? Since his weight class is devoid of challenges? And the 168 pound class is one of the deepest in the sport right now.

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Martinez weight class is 160(middle)!!! If Ward or any of the others want to make that fight, then they should meet in the middle. I'm not a fan of catch weight. But for Martinez to jump weight to 169, he can be putting himself at a disadvantage. Fair fighting is my point. Will Ward or any of the other come down to 160? Better yet, can they without half killing themself?
Martinez is willing to come down to 154 to make a big fight, but no one is speaking his name. Cotto rather wait and fight Jcc Jr and stay on the shelf. Pacman said he will never go back to 150(154). Floyd is retired. Strum don't want it. Angulo don't want it. DLH don't want it for Saul. The only person that want it, no one want to see hm get it. Paul Williams, At least until he get his status back up.
Bottom line, if a suppermiddle weight want to fight Martinez, they should meet in the middle(164). Whomever it will be, I won't expect any of them to blow Martinez out!!!

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Martinez said he cannot make 154 anymore, so anyone that wants to challenge him from a lower weight class has to fight at 160.

So Pacquiao, Mayweather, Cotto and everyone else from the lower weights has to fight Martinez at 160 to be a fair fight but for Martinez to fight at 168 against Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute is unfair?

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.

Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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Miles Pac walk in weight is 148 lb, Sergio is 171 lbs, thats a whopping 23 lbs. Pac couldnt even make the wellterweight max. Flatout unfair. If I my ask why dont Sergio move up and fight Andre Ward to prove he is the workds best?

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.

Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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hmn Martinez too small to fight a super middle but Pac big enough to fight a good sized middle:-\

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Originally Posted by Pavlik

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.

Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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Miles Pac walk in weight is 148 lb, Sergio is 171 lbs, thats a whopping 23 lbs. Pac couldnt even make the wellterweight max. Flatout unfair. If I my ask why dont Sergio move up and fight Andre Ward to prove he is the workds best?

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No mega money in it!

I don't make it a habit of putting people down for not moving up in weight. For example, I wouldn't give Pacquiao grief for not fighting Martinez. Would it be great for his legacy? Sure, if he beat Martinez, he might make it into the top 10 ATG, either way, we would have witnessed something unparalleled in boxing. In fact, I'd give Pacquiao credit just for taking on Martinez, if he beat him, it would be ridiculous.

Back to Martinez, Martinez has options at middleweight. If he has a few more years in the sport, I don't see why he wouldn't clean out the division before moving up. He only just got to middleweight. I actually think Sturm is a good fight and so is Geale for that matter after his win over Sylvester. There is nothing wrong with cleaning out a division and Sturm has been a champion in the division at one time or another for quite a while. I disagree with Marble, I wouldn't categorize Sturm as a bum, a cherry picker, sure, but not a bum. I also don't think of Sergio as a big middleweight. He's grown into being a middleweight, but a big middleweight, he is not. And if Arthur Abraham was small at 68', Sergio is even smaller because he fought most of his career at 147/154 where AA fought it at 160.

Can someone point me to a boxer that Pacquiao has ducked at or around his weight class? Who do you want to see him fight at welterweight or junior welterweight? Three months ago, I wanted to see him fight Andre Berto, now clearly, that would have been a blow out. I just can't point to anyone. If you look at the ring rankings, there isn't one interesting fight at or around his weight class other than Timothy Bradley. And I think he if beats Marquez, Bradley will be his next opponent. He's effectively cleaned out the welterweight division. I recall a few years ago I criticized Mayweather for not fighting the best at welterweight, but instead fighting Hatton, a real junior welterweight, at welterweight. I can't make that same criticism of Pacquiao and that means something, I think.

Can one of the mods prevent MafiaJoey from posting about Pacquiao? I would love to discuss with him the best at 68' or at 75', but he's gone overboard with his hatred for all things Pacquiao. Maybe you should make a board just for him so he can sit and put down Pacquiao all day? He never posts about anything else. He doesn't even have anything new or constructive to add. It's tired, man, very, very tired. Moreover, it's consistently ad hominum crap from him, referring to people as Pactards and the like. In reality, he's the only Pactard in here. No one else talks about Pacquiao half as much as he does.

As an aside, I don't agree with Miles opinion on Pacquiao, but at least he attempt to apply logic. And in Miles defense, at least Miles acknowledges the greatness in Pacqiao, even if he disputes how great he is.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I don't make it a habit of putting people down for not moving up in weight. For example, I wouldn't give Pacquiao grief for not fighting Martinez. Would it be great for his legacy? Sure, if he beat Martinez, he might make it into the top 10 ATG, either way, we would have witnessed something unparalleled in boxing. In fact, I'd give Pacquiao credit just for taking on Martinez, if he beat him, it would be ridiculous.

Back to Martinez, Martinez has options at middleweight. If he has a few more years in the sport, I don't see why he wouldn't clean out the division before moving up. He only just got to middleweight. I actually think Sturm is a good fight and so is Geale for that matter after his win over Sylvester. There is nothing wrong with cleaning out a division and Sturm has been a champion in the division at one time or another for quite a while. I disagree with Marble, I wouldn't categorize Sturm as a bum, a cherry picker, sure, but not a bum. I also don't think of Sergio as a big middleweight. He's grown into being a middleweight, but a big middleweight, he is not. And if Arthur Abraham was small at 68', Sergio is even smaller because he fought most of his career at 147/154 where AA fought it at 160.

Can someone point me to a boxer that Pacquiao has ducked at or around his weight class? Who do you want to see him fight at welterweight or junior welterweight? Three months ago, I wanted to see him fight Andre Berto, now clearly, that would have been a blow out. I just can't point to anyone. If you look at the ring rankings, there isn't one interesting fight at or around his weight class other than Timothy Bradley. And I think he if beats Marquez, Bradley will be his next opponent. He's effectively cleaned out the welterweight division. I recall a few years ago I criticized Mayweather for not fighting the best at welterweight, but instead fighting Hatton, a real junior welterweight, at welterweight. I can't make that same criticism of Pacquiao and that means something, I think.

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Just to be clear. Most of the members of Joe Louis Bum of the Month Club weren't bums either.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by Ant Live

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

and all the other top 168 pound fighters? Since it is said in the boxing world with Floyd's indefinite hiatus because of legal problems and Pacquiao is cherry picking fighters, they are not worthy to be considered the best in the sport and have been supplanted by Martinez. And since Martinez has no challengers at 160 and he is hoping that those two would jump more weight classes to fight him, but it isn't happening because those 2 aren't taking the risks. Well how about a move up to fight the top 168 pound fighters? Like Andre Ward, Kessler, Froch, Bute, etc. Surely it's much better than trying to make a fight with a 1 hit wonder like Ishida or hoping to fight Chavez Jr. or reality tv boxer Manfredo?

So how about it? Shouldn't the best in the sport test himself against the best from another weight class? Since his weight class is devoid of challenges? And the 168 pound class is one of the deepest in the sport right now.

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Martinez weight class is 160(middle)!!! If Ward or any of the others want to make that fight, then they should meet in the middle. I'm not a fan of catch weight. But for Martinez to jump weight to 169, he can be putting himself at a disadvantage. Fair fighting is my point. Will Ward or any of the other come down to 160? Better yet, can they without half killing themself?
Martinez is willing to come down to 154 to make a big fight, but no one is speaking his name. Cotto rather wait and fight Jcc Jr and stay on the shelf. Pacman said he will never go back to 150(154). Floyd is retired. Strum don't want it. Angulo don't want it. DLH don't want it for Saul. The only person that want it, no one want to see hm get it. Paul Williams, At least until he get his status back up.
Bottom line, if a suppermiddle weight want to fight Martinez, they should meet in the middle(164). Whomever it will be, I won't expect any of them to blow Martinez out!!!

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Martinez said he cannot make 154 anymore, so anyone that wants to challenge him from a lower weight class has to fight at 160.

So Pacquiao, Mayweather, Cotto and everyone else from the lower weights has to fight Martinez at 160 to be a fair fight but for Martinez to fight at 168 against Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute is unfair?

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Martinez said he's willing to go down at a catchweight to fight Manny and/or Cotto.

How about we keep Pac's name the fuck out of this thread? The question was martinez vs the SMW, yet every thread has to have Pac or Floyd's name brought into it. Anyways, as much as i hate catch weights, i would like to see Martinez vs Ward or Froch. There is absolutely no one for him to fight at 160 or 154, so this seems like a good idea to me.

I'm more interested in cleaning out the division but in the era of division bouncing and grabbing for network names prob won't happen. Froch, Ward and company have there own schtuff to sort out. We have some serious quality talent emerging now and should sit back and soak it in. Too much of a microwave mentality.

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

But back to the topic. We have to cut Martinez some slack here. Ward and Froch are tied up so lets not jump the gun. I think we should be lobbying for Martinez/Bute but I'm not so sure what Bute wants to do. He hasn't exactly been fighting anybody within a fair shot of beating him. And I can't see Martinez/Pac. Thats really just unfair for Pac and I'm sure his entire team will continue to steer clear of that unless they are just going to cash out.

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Originally Posted by blegit

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

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This. It's also worth pointing out that he went pro very early at 16, an age at which no one in the US or UK would even be allowed to. Obviously it varies very much person to person, but it's normally around this age that boxers start to grow. Mayweather at this age weighed around the same as Pacquiao I believe, while even someone like Amir Khan was only a Bantamweight. Like I say it varies, someone like Hatton actually fought at 67kg at the same age, but it's not really accurate to say Mayweather would have to jump to CW, more like he'd have to go to Middleweight based on where they both were at the ages of 18-19.

Anyway back to the topic, I think Martinez has some hope. If Macklin somehow beats Sturm, he's got an opponent to tide him by & there's always a rubber match with Williams. But him going up another division is not that unreasonable. If he has somehow become the P4P #1 (I don't believe he has), then he's done it with probably the thinnest resume of anyone in recent memory. That's not to put him down but Pacquiao, Mayweather, Hopkins, Jones & Mosley had all done significantly more to take the top spot.

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Originally Posted by blegit

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

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105 to 118 might be separated by 5 weight classes, but name me the guys that managed to win at least 1 of the major 4 world titles in those classes as they were moving through? If it's so easy there should be multiple guys doing it right?

The answer is it's not. Little men are built differently. Someone with great knowledge in the fight game told me that their body weight and physiology is different than higher weight fighters that's why 3 pounds is very significant. The average casual boxing fan thinks that 3 pounds is nothing, but if it wasn't boxing history would have guys that went through 5-6 of those small weight classes like it's nothing.

Prime example, Vic Darchinyan. He was a monster at 112 and 115 but doesn't look that great at 118. The average boxing fan without too much knowledge might think 112-118 is only 6 pounds and it's nothing, when for the lower weight guys it is significant.

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Originally Posted by blegit

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

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It doesn't matter how we do the numbers. Manny is fighting over 39% higher than where he began (106 to a 147 weight class). Armstrong did 33% (120 to a 160 weight class).

In addition Manny has beaten a number of ranked guys at 147, Homicide Hank only fought at 160 once IIRC.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by blegit

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

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It doesn't matter how we do the numbers. Manny is fighting over 39% higher than where he began (106 to a 147 weight class). Armstrong did 33% (120 to a 160 weight class).

In addition Manny has beaten a number of ranked guys at 147, Homicide Hank only fought at 160 once IIRC.

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Right, but Armstrong was also 19 or 20 (I may be wrong) when he began his pro career so that needs to be taken into account. Manny began at a 106, but he'd already gone up 113 within a year of his pro debut. At 19 he was a 122lber.

Also you're talking about ranked guys, well Pacquiao didn't beat anyone at Super-Flyweight, but you seem to be giving him credit for it. I may be misunderstanding your argument, but surely the fact that Armstrong fought a MW weighing in as a small welter is just as impressive.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

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If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by blegit

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Marbale when you say Manny jump all these divisions lets not forget he was not even full grown when you started boxing he was only 16 years of age. Not to crucial but if you 44 pounds means you jumped 10 divisions have far to many weight classes. I mean Holyfeild when he was a grown man was 177 when he started his career and fought guys who were 240 or 250 still manged to win some of them.

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Absolutely agree. People focus on the number of weight classes instead of the weight. I was a little guy coming up in boxing and I know all too well that there are way too many weight classes in the lower weights. I mean they're separated by 3 or 4 pounds. In the amateurs I would often box at 106, 112, and sometimes 119 throughout the year. If I were a professional I would have been fighting at 5 different weight classes in one year without even changing much in the size of guys! Henry Armstrong held down 3 weight classes and drew at the 4th one. But if we keep it real we look at the weight and what Armstrong did was go from 126 to 160, 4 weight classes, easily besting a 105 to 118 run which happens to be a ridiculous 5 different weight classes.

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It doesn't matter how we do the numbers. Manny is fighting over 39% higher than where he began (106 to a 147 weight class). Armstrong did 33% (120 to a 160 weight class).

In addition Manny has beaten a number of ranked guys at 147, Homicide Hank only fought at 160 once IIRC.

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Right, but Armstrong was also 19 or 20 (I may be wrong) when he began his pro career so that needs to be taken into account. Manny began at a 106, but he'd already gone up 113 within a year of his pro debut. At 19 he was a 122lber.

Also you're talking about ranked guys, well Pacquiao didn't beat anyone at Super-Flyweight, but you seem to be giving him credit for it. I may be misunderstanding your argument, but surely the fact that Armstrong fought a MW weighing in as a small welter is just as impressive.

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Let's be really clear. I consider what Armstrong did the most impressive accomplishment in the history of boxing. Nothing Manny has done is close in my view.

My issue is each time Manny jumps a hurdle few have done (and I've chosen the division description, though as I've demonstrated it doesn't really matter how one cuts the numbers, the results must be termed astonishingly impressive) some folks want to the start over and say "But Manny's only jumping 1-2 divisions what is the big deal?" without giving any credit for where Manny began or what he has already done.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

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This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

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Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

---

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

---

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

---

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

---

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

---

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)

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Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

---

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

---

See it IS that cut and dry. WHY? Because while Floyd and Shane were fighting three round fights with headgear against other teenagers? Manny was defeating MEN in 12 round fights and winning a legitimate, lineal world championship! Sasakul was 27-28 that night by the way.

The only way to properly guage a fighter is by being the lightest he could be and still perform well. Why do you think Greb is always referred to as a middle despite dominating a generation of light heavies and often fighting around 165? Because he could always make 160 and defeat top guys (see his 158 weight to beat Mickey Walker). Manny is THE ONLY ranked welter in the world today who weighs in under the limit and fights almost right at it. EVERYONE else fights at 154 or above, in other words, as middleweights. BEING at welter and CHOOSING to fight them are two different things.

The measure that REALLY tells is the fight night weight. Manny and JMM are basically the same size.

Now I'd LOVE to see Manny go through the hassle of dehydrating to make 135 and rehydrate and take a crack at the lineal 135 title. But it seems it won't happen.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

---

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

---

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)

---

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

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LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

let me ask you miles, if you have a choice between fighting an opponent you could easily beat and another who would be difficult for almost the same amount of money, who would you go for? ... well there you go.

tbh i'd love to see that fight with sergio at 154 but it's not smart to do it right now when you know there's a lot more options at making greens with lesser risks.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by miles

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

---

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

---

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

---

That's simply nonsense. Manny is one of 5-6 teenaged champions. That MUST be taken into account in measuring Manny's greatness. Plus Manny is NOT a welterweight. He is merely fighting them. Manny eats like a horse right up to the weigh-in and drinks almost right up to it. Manny could make 140 by skipping a few meals and probably 135 without affecting his performance. Given today's day before weigh-ins welters come into the ring in the 155-160 range, Hell Ortiz came in at 161! Manny FIGHTS around 147. His fight night weight is within three pounds of where it was when he was a 130 for God's sake. He just doesn't go through the degydration and rehydration process.

---

Hey, you are the one talking about Manny's so called incredible weight jumps and others are simply telling you that it isn't that cut and dry. I am doing the same thing, it might not fit your world view, but it's a fact that people like Mosley and Mayweather were just as small in comparison, but it's just that they were fighting in the amateurs. Manny's weight jumps are pretty impressive, but far from unique as a developing young man. Kids tend to grow and Manny was doing just that.

He is a natural WW today. That is where he is and that is where he is comfortable. We are told he eats babies to maintain weight etc and you are saying he can make 140 and maybe 135, so why not fight Marquez at 140? The truth is he is likely far more comfortable at WW as a 32 year old adult. We hear a lot of things from Manny's camp; he eats a lot of rice and so on, but so what? The man is a 2 year plus WW. If he were to actually fight at smaller weights I would reconsider, but I'm not so sure if I believe anything from his camp anymore.

---

See it IS that cut and dry. WHY? Because while Floyd and Shane were fighting three round fights with headgear against other teenagers? Manny was defeating MEN in 12 round fights and winning a legitimate, lineal world championship! Sasakul was 27-28 that night by the way.

The only way to properly guage a fighter is by being the lightest he could be and still perform well. Why do you think Greb is always referred to as a middle despite dominating a generation of light heavies and often fighting around 165? Because he could always make 160 and defeat top guys (see his 158 weight to beat Mickey Walker). Manny is THE ONLY ranked welter in the world today who weighs in under the limit and fights almost right at it. EVERYONE else fights at 154 or above, in other words, as middleweights. BEING at welter and CHOOSING to fight them are two different things.

The measure that REALLY tells is the fight night weight. Manny and JMM are basically the same size.

Now I'd LOVE to see Manny go through the hassle of dehydrating to make 135 and rehydrate and take a crack at the lineal 135 title. But it seems it won't happen.

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Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.

Question for all of you........



"IF" Martinez could make 154 you would still have excuses for Pac? He fought Margo at Junior Middleweight 154lb

Sounds like Catch weight comes with "Catch" terms, "Catch" intentions, "Catch" agendas, "Catch" excuses and the biggest "Catch" is it's easy to see who likes to use stats to there advantage when describing his accomplishments but want's to avoid them when it concerns a threat to him.

As much as you guys consider me a Pac hater I really don't see Martinez beating Pac as easily as you think. Pac is amazing when in a war. He does better when hit.... I think Pac wins.