any arguments? i think he would kick their ass, this coming from a huge floyd maywaether fan and manny fan
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any arguments? i think he would kick their ass, this coming from a huge floyd maywaether fan and manny fan
I dont know about kicking their asses, but he might have eeked out a decision. Possibly.
When ever Oscar is in a big event fight, bet on him to lose. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
At their original weights....... maybe.
;)
So true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
Most of his fights were big events, I don't recall him losing most of his fights.
Well he beat JCC, Pernell Whitaker, they were big events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
Oscar has never beaten an A+ slick fighter in their prime. Floyd would beat him. Hell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.
i did say prime de la hoe thou, don't forget de lahoya had a zap judah, mike tyson characteristic, he tended not to show up for every fight, but when he did, it was scary
Hell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
I don't think he would have ever beat them prime for prime.
He was great, those two are something else. Oscar did well because he looked good and was a nice guy.
Put it this way though would a prime ODLH, have lost to anyone on there resumes P4P ? i see ODLH having no problem beating anyone on Mayweather's or Pacquiao's resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
also since when has Manny been a slick fighter? he's a boxer/puncher at best, and gets hit plenty still, just cause an old shot Mosley was unable to touch him in their last fight doesn't mean that a young DLH in his prime wouldn't have been able to touch him up and hurt him, can't compare what both did against the DLH they fought as to how they would do against the DLH that beat Vargas, Quartey, and arguably Mosley at his peakQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
Can't really argue that, would have loved to have seen him vs Hatton though!Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBPut it this way though would a prime ODLH, have lost to anyone on there resumes P4P ? i see ODLH having no problem beating anyone on Mayweather's or Pacquiao's resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
But I still think that they are both too good for him, their opponents maybe not, but I'd still pick those two everytime.
Not that Oscar isn't brilliant, just Manny and Floyd are a different class.
So subjective though, leads on nicely to Mosley vs in his prime. Many would pick Floyd and Manny, which surely would mean by rights they should beat Oscar?
Im not so sure Manny Pacquiao would beat a prime Shane Mosley, i think people forget how good Shane Mosley was until he was ruined. And ODLH only lost by 1 or 2 rounds vs Shane Mosley, and should of won the rematch.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0Can't really argue that, would have loved to have seen him vs Hatton though!Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBPut it this way though would a prime ODLH, have lost to anyone on there resumes P4P ? i see ODLH having no problem beating anyone on Mayweather's or Pacquiao's resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
But I still think that they are both too good for him, their opponents maybe not, but I'd still pick those two everytime.
Not that Oscar isn't brilliant, just Manny and Floyd are a different class.
So subjective though, leads on nicely to Mosley vs in his prime. Many would pick Floyd and Manny, which surely would mean by rights they should beat Oscar?
And even Floyd Mayweather Jr at Welterweight, didn't have opposition like Trinidad, Quartey, ETC. Actually im not that impressed with Floyd Mayweather's resume above Lightweight.
What weight would these fights be taking place at?
Manny vs Oscar at lightweight would be interesting, Floyd vs Oscar at light welter too.
Id pick Manny and Floyd.
If you want to put Oscar in the welterweight or light middle divisions however I think he wouldnt be fighting the best Floyd or Manny either.
its impossible to put them both in the ring in their primes and prime weights as they are different sized fighters......
But there was no doubt that floyd won both of those fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
I said Floyd would beat him. Not manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesalso since when has Manny been a slick fighter? he's a boxer/puncher at best, and gets hit plenty still, just cause an old shot Mosley was unable to touch him in their last fight doesn't mean that a young DLH in his prime wouldn't have been able to touch him up and hurt him, can't compare what both did against the DLH they fought as to how they would do against the DLH that beat Vargas, Quartey, and arguably Mosley at his peakQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
And mosely at 154 wasn't peak.
was a hell of a lot closer to it than when Floyd and Manny beat himQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI said Floyd would beat him. Not manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesalso since when has Manny been a slick fighter? he's a boxer/puncher at best, and gets hit plenty still, just cause an old shot Mosley was unable to touch him in their last fight doesn't mean that a young DLH in his prime wouldn't have been able to touch him up and hurt him, can't compare what both did against the DLH they fought as to how they would do against the DLH that beat Vargas, Quartey, and arguably Mosley at his peakQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
And mosely at 154 wasn't peak.
True that...Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleswas a hell of a lot closer to it than when Floyd and Manny beat himQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI said Floyd would beat him. Not manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesalso since when has Manny been a slick fighter? he's a boxer/puncher at best, and gets hit plenty still, just cause an old shot Mosley was unable to touch him in their last fight doesn't mean that a young DLH in his prime wouldn't have been able to touch him up and hurt him, can't compare what both did against the DLH they fought as to how they would do against the DLH that beat Vargas, Quartey, and arguably Mosley at his peakQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
And mosely at 154 wasn't peak.
It's such an impossible result to really call. Let's not forget Oscar even shared a ring with our favourite grandad. The weights are too all over.
My take is that he couldn't beat them when they fought despite:
1. Outweighing Mayweather by somewhere in the region of 15-20lbs.
2. Pacquiao having been a Super-Featherweight only 9 months prior
3. Being able to choose the ring size, gloves of his opponent (I know this was definitely true against PBF) as well as them coming to a new weightclass stipulated by him.
He in no way fought them 'at their best' as they both faced several disadvantages when fighting him. Not to mention that the best version of Oscar being mentioned was only 3/4 years younger than when they beat him & a proper LMW. Neither has the frame to be a LMW. Put the best WW versions of PBF & Pac against the one that fought Quartey/Whitaker/Mosley 1 & for me they beat him.
They were also both considerably better at the lower weights than Oscar who largely passed quickly through them because he struggled with the weight.
People can talk about prime, but this isn't like Mike Tyson getting beaten by Danny Williams & Kevin McBride, he was up against guys who might well have had his number whenever he fought them.
Prime oscar beats any version of pacman, because of his jab, chin, power and boxing ability.
You could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Yes, but tito isn't slick, and SSM in the second fight at 154 was where he started to load up and only throw one or two punch combos. Basically getting away from the fighter he was to become the fighter that made his career harder than it had to be. The shane that fought Oscar at 147. I think would beat everyone mentioned in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Not true Jose Luis Castillo outlanded Floyd Mayweather Jr. And pretty much won most of the rounds after the 5th round, was it a robbery ? no but very controversial and more people think he lost it than won it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherBut there was no doubt that floyd won both of those fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
As for the rematch yes Floyd Mayweather Jr won a close but clear decision, but it was no walk in the park. At worst it was 7-5 or 7-4-1 for Floyd Mayweather Jr.
most people think that only because the fight was closer. Yeah he made it tough, but floyd won that fight. Castillo did a bunch of holding in that fight. Landing more punches doesn't mean one wins a fight, it isn't amateur boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNot true Jose Luis Castillo outlanded Floyd Mayweather Jr. And pretty much won most of the rounds after the 5th round, was it a robbery ? no but very controversial and more people think he lost it than won it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherBut there was no doubt that floyd won both of those fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
As for the rematch yes Floyd Mayweather Jr won a close but clear decision, but it was no walk in the park. At worst it was 7-5 or 7-4-1 for Floyd Mayweather Jr.
If lands 100 punches in one round but loses the other rounds, that's still just one round round won.
True but apart from the first 4 rounds, where Floyd Mayweather Jr was landing effective jabs. JLC was able to bully and outland Floyd Mayweather Jr, consistently on the inside for the most part in the 2nd half of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweathermost people think that only because the fight was closer. Yeah he made it tough, but floyd won that fight. Castillo did a bunch of holding in that fight. Landing more punches doesn't mean one wins a fight, it isn't amateur boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNot true Jose Luis Castillo outlanded Floyd Mayweather Jr. And pretty much won most of the rounds after the 5th round, was it a robbery ? no but very controversial and more people think he lost it than won it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherBut there was no doubt that floyd won both of those fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHell if people want to say ODLH beat Sweet Pea, then I'll argue that he lost to Quartey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And Mayweather struggled with Castillo's pressure twice, and Pacquiao arguably lost to JMM twice and he lost convincingly to Erik Morales.
As for the rematch yes Floyd Mayweather Jr won a close but clear decision, but it was no walk in the park. At worst it was 7-5 or 7-4-1 for Floyd Mayweather Jr.
If lands 100 punches in one round but loses the other rounds, that's still just one round round won.
Right, Oscar won some fights he probably didn't deserve to win as some have pointed out but he also "lost" these 2 where he probably didn't to deserve to as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He also took out (impressively!) a maybe not prime Vargas but still a tough guy where early on it looked like Vargas was too big & strong(he was probably on roids that night). That was a pretty big fight too as I recall in the months leading up to it.
Yeah he did, but Vargas was ruined by Tito, and possibly brought on too fast and early in his career. Even Still Oscar would have beaten him no matter when they fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRazorRight, Oscar won some fights he probably didn't deserve to win as some have pointed out but he also "lost" these 2 where he probably didn't to deserve to as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He also took out (impressively!) a maybe not prime Vargas but still a tough guy where early on it looked like Vargas was too big & strong(he was probably on roids that night). That was a pretty big fight too as I recall in the months leading up to it.
lets not forget that Vargas was also roided up against DLHQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherYeah he did, but Vargas was ruined by Tito, and possibly brought on too fast and early in his career. Even Still Oscar would have beaten him no matter when they fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRazorRight, Oscar won some fights he probably didn't deserve to win as some have pointed out but he also "lost" these 2 where he probably didn't to deserve to as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He also took out (impressively!) a maybe not prime Vargas but still a tough guy where early on it looked like Vargas was too big & strong(he was probably on roids that night). That was a pretty big fight too as I recall in the months leading up to it.
but i disagree, IMO if they would have taken their time with Vargas he would have beaten both Trinidad and DLH, and possibly would have gone down as one of the best fighters at 154, just goes to show that you can't be great on talent alone, and that it only takes one fight to ruin a guy
If you mean, taken their time before putting him the ring with the big guns? Then yeah he would have been better against them because they would have been old and declining. Tito I think beats him anyway because of that power. And Oscar would outbox him, and because of that power.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleslets not forget that Vargas was also roided up against DLHQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherYeah he did, but Vargas was ruined by Tito, and possibly brought on too fast and early in his career. Even Still Oscar would have beaten him no matter when they fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRazorRight, Oscar won some fights he probably didn't deserve to win as some have pointed out but he also "lost" these 2 where he probably didn't to deserve to as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He also took out (impressively!) a maybe not prime Vargas but still a tough guy where early on it looked like Vargas was too big & strong(he was probably on roids that night). That was a pretty big fight too as I recall in the months leading up to it.
but i disagree, IMO if they would have taken their time with Vargas he would have beaten both Trinidad and DLH, and possibly would have gone down as one of the best fighters at 154, just goes to show that you can't be great on talent alone, and that it only takes one fight to ruin a guy
but if you really break down both fights Vargas just wasn't ready to deal with either guy, against Trinidad he was like what? 22-0? the fact that he had already beat Campas, Quartey, and Wright (even if controversially) is even more impressive, Vargas wasn't mentally ready for either fight, physically he was mature but not mentally, not by a long shot, the way he'd pout his lips prior the Trinidad fight shows thisQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherIf you mean, taken their time before putting him the ring with the big guns? Then yeah he would have been better against them because they would have been old and declining. Tito I think beats him anyway because of that power. And Oscar would outbox him, and because of that power.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleslets not forget that Vargas was also roided up against DLHQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherYeah he did, but Vargas was ruined by Tito, and possibly brought on too fast and early in his career. Even Still Oscar would have beaten him no matter when they fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRazorRight, Oscar won some fights he probably didn't deserve to win as some have pointed out but he also "lost" these 2 where he probably didn't to deserve to as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He also took out (impressively!) a maybe not prime Vargas but still a tough guy where early on it looked like Vargas was too big & strong(he was probably on roids that night). That was a pretty big fight too as I recall in the months leading up to it.
but i disagree, IMO if they would have taken their time with Vargas he would have beaten both Trinidad and DLH, and possibly would have gone down as one of the best fighters at 154, just goes to show that you can't be great on talent alone, and that it only takes one fight to ruin a guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesbut if you really break down both fights Vargas just wasn't ready to deal with either guy, against Trinidad he was like what? 22-0? the fact that he had already beat Campas, Quartey, and Wright (even if controversially) is even more impressive, Vargas wasn't mentally ready for either fight, physically he was mature but not mentally, not by a long shot, the way he'd pout his lips prior the Trinidad fight shows thisQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherIf you mean, taken their time before putting him the ring with the big guns? Then yeah he would have been better against them because they would have been old and declining. Tito I think beats him anyway because of that power. And Oscar would outbox him, and because of that power.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleslets not forget that Vargas was also roided up against DLHQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherYeah he did, but Vargas was ruined by Tito, and possibly brought on too fast and early in his career. Even Still Oscar would have beaten him no matter when they fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRazorRight, Oscar won some fights he probably didn't deserve to win as some have pointed out but he also "lost" these 2 where he probably didn't to deserve to as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANYou could argue he beat Trinidad and Mosley in fight 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
He also took out (impressively!) a maybe not prime Vargas but still a tough guy where early on it looked like Vargas was too big & strong(he was probably on roids that night). That was a pretty big fight too as I recall in the months leading up to it.
but i disagree, IMO if they would have taken their time with Vargas he would have beaten both Trinidad and DLH, and possibly would have gone down as one of the best fighters at 154, just goes to show that you can't be great on talent alone, and that it only takes one fight to ruin a guy
I agree 100%. They brought him along too fast. The only way he beats them is if he'd been given a few more fights, but then they would have been older. So that also would have helped.
I think the "pre-Tito" Vargas would've had an excellent chance to beat DLH. Remember... this was a Vargas that after the Tito fight was put on his ass by the light-punching Wilfredo Rivera. Wilfredo would've KO'ed him, too.... if he had pressed his advantage when he had Vargas down.
Yes, Vargas was DEF damaged by Tito, and DLH benefited from it.
Oscar didn't beat legit ATG's, he was notch below them, and these are two very highly ranked all-time greats. Oscar was a great fighter, but not quite on their level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer4life
A younger Oscar was faster than the one that fought Floyd, but not as big and strong. Also when he was younger he tried to box with guys more, and the more he would try and straight up box with Mayweather the worse he would lose. The reason why he did as well as he did was experience and wisdom. He did his best to corner and contain Mayweather. A younger Oscar would have tried to play the speed game with Floyd, and also try to knock him out which would have resulted in Oscar getting outboxed, and tiring earlier in the fight.
As for Manny, there is now no evidence for me to believe that Oscar could hurt Manny with any one big punch. Sure it could happen, but once again I see Manny being to fluid offensively and too fast for Oscar. Oscar would obviously be more competitive than the weight drained version we saw face Manny, but besides his jab and occasional left hook I don't see him having enough weapons to outdo Manny's arsenal for 12 rounds.