The Hype with Saul Alverez (apologies if spelt incorrectly!)

I dont get it!?!?! He had had a draw, admittedly early in his career, two or 3 split decisions, and went the distance against Matthew Hatton, almost against Rhodes and more. Watching the Hatton fight the commentators were going mad saying how heavy his hands are etc and he is rated as the top welterweight prospect by most!? Now again he is only 20 BUT I dont get the hype at all for the reasons above (and I thought he did actually look pretty decent against Hatton) but everyone seems to be bigging him up and so on and i wondered why!?!!

Who can tell me lol and additionally surely he wont stand a chance vs pac... who thinks differently?

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

I dont get it!?!?! He had had a draw, admittedly early in his career, two or 3 split decisions, and went the distance against Matthew Hatton, almost against Rhodes and more. Watching the Hatton fight the commentators were going mad saying how heavy his hands are etc and he is rated as the top welterweight prospect by most!? Now again he is only 20 BUT I dont get the hype at all for the reasons above (and I thought he did actually look pretty decent against Hatton) but everyone seems to be bigging him up and so on and i wondered why!?!!

Who can tell me lol and additionally surely he wont stand a chance vs pac... who thinks differently?

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He's only 20 and he's already this good. I think that's where the hype stems from.

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

To be fair to Alvarez he didn't even try and take either Hatton or Rhodes out early, it was never part of his game plan to apply pressure for long periods. He was patient and simply better.

Name another 20 year old that is either that good or has had that many pro fights? He looks very composed and his shots look like they sting and his body isn't even finished growing yet.

I can see exactly why there is so much hype and I think he is doing the right thing. Beating 2 Brits on the bounce helps give him exposure in the UK and I'm sure he will strategically take on other fighters around this level to make him a household name across the globe, before stepping up to the world class operators, instead of the national class guys.

I really think the hype is 90% due to his unusual for a Mexican red hair and freckles. He's a novelty act. Going 12 rounds in successive fights with Lovemore Ndou, Matthew Hatton and Ryan Rhodes really doesn't speak power puncher to me.

So far all the fights I've seen him in have bored me.

I don't regard Adrian Broner as a power puncher really yet he destroyed a better opponent, in a single round and has a higher KO percentage than Canelo too.

At only 21 though you have to assume that he will get better. I imagine by the time he is 23/34 he will be a very solid fighter and tough to beat.

Right now they will need to keep matching him carefully.

I think Cintron would beat him right now.

Oakley, I completely see where you are coming from. Alvarez has looked good, not great, yet he is headlining HBO shows, doing impressive television ratings and selling out soccer stadiums. He's a rock star in Mexico. Generally, when prospects move up the ranks to facing top 10-20 boxers, they are fighting on ESPN2 or the undercard of HBO after dark shows. For example, Vanes Martirosyan is a former US Olympian of a similar world ranking as Alvarez who hasn't got near the exposure. Something doesn't add up. Much the same with Chavez Jr. You are correct that it has a lot to do with the novelty of a fair-skinned, red-haired Mexican.

All that said, he is only 20, we should give him time to develop. He doesn't belong in the ring with any top boxer at 154 now or in the near future. He wouldn't beat Angulo, Dzinziruk, or Cotto. However, as boxing fans, we should embrace him to an extent because his popularity is good for the sport. Let's just not allow the hype surrounding him to cloud our judgment of his actual boxing skill level. A good test for him is his mandatory - Vanes Martirosyan.

He is a very methodical strong kid with solid head and body attack. He also has great promotional ties and def is being groomed as the next golden child of sorts. The buzz is warranted but the hype can be blinding in this sport. He has had solid showcase platforms afforded to him on HBO against two spirited heavy bags and frankly it wasn't a question of 'who' but 'when' going into those. You could almost see him working on things in there, not exactly carrying them late but feeling and learning stamina which I get the feeling might be an issue. He has the best of both worlds with massive exposure, a world title and has not had to fight monsters to get it. He's been carefully matched for a guy with 38 fights, I dont care if he's 13 or 20. Hype and anointing a quality talent on a massive stage can be their downfall as everything is emphasized and undoubtedly scrutinized but he has got people talking and generated buzz so there is no going back now. Its time to step it up in comp.

It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

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Yeh I think its a bad turn when it becomes more "American Idol" in grooming stars for HBO than making solid competive fights for fans. More and more we except it. Ya just shouldn't settle for seeing a great prospect in a one sided show where all things seem just a formality rather than an actual question. He's 20, I know ;D

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

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Considering how much exposure they give Andre Berto, I think this pours some doubt on that argument. ;D

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Good thing he's fighting at 154 then no? His handlers will never put him in with Sergio Martinez, Cotto is starting to show his years. And that about wraps it up.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Good thing he's fighting at 154 then no? His handlers will never put him in with Sergio Martinez, Cotto is starting to show his years. And that about wraps it up.

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Exactly. Mexifraud ain't ever getting near Martinez or even an ancient Cotto.

I've heard Golden Boy are already in talks with Colin Lynes, Young Mutley and Bradley Pryce for the Mexifraud's next outing. Fact.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Good thing he's fighting at 154 then no? His handlers will never put him in with Sergio Martinez, Cotto is starting to show his years. And that about wraps it up.

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Exactly. Mexifraud ain't ever getting near Martinez or even an ancient Cotto.

I've heard Golden Boy are already in talks with Colin Lynes, Young Mutley and Bradley Pryce for the Mexifraud's next outing. Fact.

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Well their plan to get the UK talking about him has worked, good or bad it's still publicity. I think HBO made is clear that long term they want to see him against JCC2, but in the mean time work on youse guys.
Not sure why you think he's a fraud though, he's not even old enough to drink stateside, and he's about the most active fighter in any kind of spotlight. I guess people want him knocking everyone out in 1-2 rounds, but that's not him and not the temperment his trainers are trying to put on him.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Good thing he's fighting at 154 then no? His handlers will never put him in with Sergio Martinez, Cotto is starting to show his years. And that about wraps it up.

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Exactly. Mexifraud ain't ever getting near Martinez or even an ancient Cotto.

I've heard Golden Boy are already in talks with Colin Lynes, Young Mutley and Bradley Pryce for the Mexifraud's next outing. Fact.

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Well their plan to get the UK talking about him has worked, good or bad it's still publicity. I think HBO made is clear that long term they want to see him against JCC2, but in the mean time work on youse guys.
Not sure why you think he's a fraud though, he's not even old enough to drink stateside, and he's about the most active fighter in any kind of spotlight. I guess people want him knocking everyone out in 1-2 rounds, but that's not him and not the temperment his trainers are trying to put on him.

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He's a fraud because VD, who is a boxing expert, says all the British fighters are useless frauds, even the ones that win "world" titles, so how can beating the Brits that ain't even known in their own country make you anything other than a padded record useless fraud?

VD is right.

Which means Alvarez is a Mexifraud.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Good thing he's fighting at 154 then no? His handlers will never put him in with Sergio Martinez, Cotto is starting to show his years. And that about wraps it up.

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Exactly. Mexifraud ain't ever getting near Martinez or even an ancient Cotto.

I've heard Golden Boy are already in talks with Colin Lynes, Young Mutley and Bradley Pryce for the Mexifraud's next outing. Fact.

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Well their plan to get the UK talking about him has worked, good or bad it's still publicity. I think HBO made is clear that long term they want to see him against JCC2, but in the mean time work on youse guys.
Not sure why you think he's a fraud though, he's not even old enough to drink stateside, and he's about the most active fighter in any kind of spotlight. I guess people want him knocking everyone out in 1-2 rounds, but that's not him and not the temperment his trainers are trying to put on him.

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He's a fraud because VD, who is a boxing expert, says all the British fighters are useless frauds, even the ones that win "world" titles, so how can beating the Brits that ain't even known in their own country make you anything other than a padded record useless fraud?

VD is right.

Which means Alvarez is a Mexifraud.

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Didn't realize you were making a calculation using the VD standard ;D

I'm kind of in the middle between great fighter and hype job. I don't think he's the next sensation but a the same time I think he's a lot better than Fenster is claiming, although clearly much of what he is saying is tongue in cheek and he probably actually stands where I do.

He has potential, could develop into one of the better guys but thus far he doesn't look any better than James Kirkland or Angulo, or Joel Julio and Sechew Powell before them.

It's weird to me that they are saying he's a sensation, I've not seen many of his fights admittedly but none have come close to exciting, let alone sensational.

His stardom is as random to me as if Ricky Burns was a massive PPV star in the UK or if Showtime were headlining David Price..

Clearly the good looks, freckles and red hair on a Mexican is a big part of the appeal.

Only time I've seen Alvarez look truly impressive was when he stopped Carlos Baldomir.

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo;983620[B

]It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. [/B]Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

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Last night's fight was on HBO's Boxing after Dark (B.A.D.), it features fighters like Alvarez, HBO's World Class Boxing (W.C.B.) is a step up from B.A.D., so it's not all that strange to see Alvarez headlining a B.A.D. card.

I believe you're underestimating this kid if you see him as another Joel Julio, he's much better even at 20 then Julio has ever been in his entire career. Canelo might not be the next Pacquiao, but right now he's got an extremely bright future.

Yeah I generally agree with you Bilbo about Alvarez. He's good but I doubt great. But we'll see. Although I didn't realise this kid was considered good looking? That's a weird one to me...

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Yeah I generally agree with you Bilbo about Alvarez. He's good but I doubt great. But we'll see. Although I didn't realise this kid was considered good looking? That's a weird one to me...

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During the interview he looked like a cartoon character I thought.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

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More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Man Rhodes is the best light middle we got!! He wouldn't have been in Mexico otherwise!
We havnt got better welters either.

I think of a Berto and how he was rushed into limelight and not properly prepared. Once you get to the top and have yet to refine basics and skill set its all learning on the job against far better comp. Doesn't always turn out well. He's far more refined and 'aware' than Berto I think, more experience on paper in number of bouts but he needs work to hone up, dude has holes. I'm not calling him a Berto but waaaay to much rush to market with some guys. Quality over quantity. Will take time but they better take it easy pushing into a top tier. Bit of a catch 22. He's already a "star" on main stage but adversity will only get deeper and deeper.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

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More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

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So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?

How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Yeah I generally agree with you Bilbo about Alvarez. He's good but I doubt great. But we'll see. Although I didn't realise this kid was considered good looking? That's a weird one to me...

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During the interview he looked like a cartoon character I thought.

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I thought he looks like Archie from the comics.:)

http://www.comic-con.org/common/assets/archie_head.gifhttp://boxersedge.com/wp-content/upl...ez-200x200.jpg

Random but I set my alarm for the rhodes fight and had a dream that he won a unanimous decision and I woke up.
I'll tell it how it is but Ryan did fucking well considering the age gap!!

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Wonder what fool claimed Rhodes would give him problems? Sucking his dick and spitting such nonsense like "Alvarez is made for Rhodes" "Rhodes is a great counter puncher". "Rhodes has power in both hands". "Rhodes has never lost at 154" "Rhodes will be his hardest opponent" Blah, blah, blah. Rhodes chump ass couldn't even do as good as Lanardo Tyner. Fool didn't even try. Fucking disgrace he was. If the UK had any sense of pride they will murder Rhodes as soon as he steps off the plane.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

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Wonder what fool claimed Rhodes would give him problems? Sucking his dick and spitting such nonsense like "Alvarez is made for Rhodes" "Rhodes is a great counter puncher". "Rhodes has power in both hands". "Rhodes has never lost at 154" "Rhodes will be his hardest opponent" Blah, blah, blah. Rhodes chump ass couldn't even do as good as Lanardo Tyner. Fool didn't even try. Fucking disgrace he was. If the UK had any sense of pride they will murder Rhodes as soon as he steps off the plane.

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I don't know who stated all of that.

Whoever said - "Rhodes has never lost at 154" - was telling an unequivocal fact. So that guy is clearly clued up. Fact.

Whoever said - "Alvarez is made for Rhodes" - was proven unequivocally correct. Fact. A prime Rhodes, which makes him faster, probably twice as fast, more hungry and fighting at home without the bias crowd jeering his every move forward, and cheering every punch that misses him, schools the Mexifraud. Fact.

Only a fucking idiot can't see that. Fact.

That's a fact of fact. Fact!

Rhodes face says it all, as did Hatton's, and the fact that Alvarez is rocking these guys and busting up so badly while using Winning's Gloves shows the kid has power

I agree that's a fact Ryan woulda squashed Alvarez!!
Cuntish people don't give Rhodes credit and now we see why calzage stayed at home!!!! Cos u still get no credit.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

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More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

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So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?
How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

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[scratching head]

The bold makes no logical sense that I can see. Let me try it this way. Boxing is no different than any other human endeavor. The more one does it, the better one gets (up until of course one gets too old or takes too many blows). But one is still capped by one's potential. One can learn to do everything properly, but if one has slow hands, slow feet, a weak chin and no natural power? he's only going to be able to be so good. The term you'll sometimes hear about a guy who does everything right and still isn't very good is LOFT (lack of effing talent). Put another way, take Floyd Mayweather's toolbox and train him the same way and have him fight the same comp as an untalented, but fully skilled guy? Floyd turns out better. But here's the thing. Take a highly talented, limited skill and craft guy and match him up with a moderately talented highly skilled and crafty guy? I'll bet on the latter everty time.

As far as Alvarez goes specifically? I think his development of skill and craft is essential because I don't see a pile of talent jumping off the screen at me. Do you? Of course I never saw a pile of talent coming off the screen from a guy like Juan Manuel Marquez either and he's done ok.

I think amateur fighting today can be as much detriment as help. Due to the headgear and silly scoring system the two sports are more different than they have ever been. In the ams one doesn't get rewarded for power, bodypunching and toughness the way one does in the pro's.

As far as inexperienced pro's? I can only look at how the greats were brought along and it seems reasonably consistent. Fight every month or more until one is nearly fully developed.

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Originally Posted by Dropanuke

I agree that's a fact Ryan woulda squashed Alvarez!!
Cuntish people don't give Rhodes credit and now we see why calzage stayed at home!!!! Cos u still get no credit.

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Wht does Rhodes deserve credit for that he's not getting?

He fought a courageous fight.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

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More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

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So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?
How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

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[scratching head]

The bold makes no logical sense that I can see. Let me try it this way. Boxing is no different than any other human endeavor. The more one does it, the better one gets (up until of course one gets too old or takes too many blows). But one is still capped by one's potential. One can learn to do everything properly, but if one has slow hands, slow feet, a weak chin and no natural power? he's only going to be able to be so good. The term you'll sometimes hear about a guy who does everything right and still isn't very good is LOFT (lack of effing talent). Put another way, take Floyd Mayweather's toolbox and train him the same way and have him fight the same comp as an untalented, but fully skilled guy? Floyd turns out better. But here's the thing. Take a highly talented, limited skill and craft guy and match him up with a moderately talented highly skilled and crafty guy? I'll bet on the latter everty time.

As far as Alvarez goes specifically? I think his development of skill and craft is essential because I don't see a pile of talent jumping off the screen at me. Do you? Of course I never saw a pile of talent coming off the screen from a guy like Juan Manuel Marquez either and he's done ok.

I think amateur fighting today can be as much detriment as help. Due to the headgear and silly scoring system the two sports are more different than they have ever been. In the ams one doesn't get rewarded for power, bodypunching and toughness the way one does in the pro's.

As far as inexperienced pro's? I can only look at how the greats were brought along and it seems reasonably consistent. Fight every month or more until one is nearly fully developed.

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There's been a recent change to the scoring system that should rectify this. What do you mean by toughness?

I've just been at a 3 day event in London called the Haringey Box Cup that has boxers from around the world competing in it. The guy who won the Boxer of the Tournament, displayed all of those qualities to win. In fact, that is what got him it rather than any kind of technical point-scoring. The problem is those kind of qualities tend to see a lot of guys burn out very early as pros.

On Alvarez, I was very impressed. He beat the #4 ranked LMW in the world (& a guy who should have had a shot about a year ago) comfortably & closed the show in style. I loved his head movement & thought this was the perfect example of a guy learning his craft on the job. He's a decent enough titlist after that performance. He may not be ready for Manny, Floyd or Sergio, but who is? I'd fancy him against Cotto.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by oakleyno1

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

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He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

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Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

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More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

---

So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?
How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

---

[scratching head]

The bold makes no logical sense that I can see. Let me try it this way. Boxing is no different than any other human endeavor. The more one does it, the better one gets (up until of course one gets too old or takes too many blows). But one is still capped by one's potential. One can learn to do everything properly, but if one has slow hands, slow feet, a weak chin and no natural power? he's only going to be able to be so good. The term you'll sometimes hear about a guy who does everything right and still isn't very good is LOFT (lack of effing talent). Put another way, take Floyd Mayweather's toolbox and train him the same way and have him fight the same comp as an untalented, but fully skilled guy? Floyd turns out better. But here's the thing. Take a highly talented, limited skill and craft guy and match him up with a moderately talented highly skilled and crafty guy? I'll bet on the latter everty time.

As far as Alvarez goes specifically? I think his development of skill and craft is essential because I don't see a pile of talent jumping off the screen at me. Do you? Of course I never saw a pile of talent coming off the screen from a guy like Juan Manuel Marquez either and he's done ok.

I think amateur fighting today can be as much detriment as help. Due to the headgear and silly scoring system the two sports are more different than they have ever been. In the ams one doesn't get rewarded for power, bodypunching and toughness the way one does in the pro's.

As far as inexperienced pro's? I can only look at how the greats were brought along and it seems reasonably consistent. Fight every month or more until one is nearly fully developed.

---

There's been a recent change to the scoring system that should rectify this. What do you mean by toughness?

I've just been at a 3 day event in London called the Haringey Box Cup that has boxers from around the world competing in it. The guy who won the Boxer of the Tournament, displayed all of those qualities to win. In fact, that is what got him it rather than any kind of technical point-scoring. The problem is those kind of qualities tend to see a lot of guys burn out very early as pros.

On Alvarez, I was very impressed. He beat the #4 ranked LMW in the world (& a guy who should have had a shot about a year ago) comfortably & closed the show in style. I loved his head movement & thought this was the perfect example of a guy learning his craft on the job. He's a decent enough titlist after that performance. He may not be ready for Manny, Floyd or Sergio, but who is? I'd fancy him against Cotto.

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I am THRILLED the scoring has been changed! Looking forward to see the impact!

The toughness necessary in the pros is fundamentally different, in my view, than that needed in the amateurs for two reasons. First is having to perform while exhausted and depleted. Ten and 12 rounds of concentration, accepting blows etc isn't a little different from four two minute rounds, it is galactically different. The second reason is the inherent safety built into the ams with the headgear and how the referees act. In the pros it is clear it is bloodsport and there has to be additional anxiety due to the lack of those protections.

Completely agree on the bold.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

I am THRILLED the scoring has been changed! Looking forward to see the impact!

The toughness necessary in the pros is fundamentally different, in my view, than that needed in the amateurs for two reasons. First is having to perform while exhausted and depleted. Ten and 12 rounds of concentration, accepting blows etc isn't a little different from four two minute rounds, it is galactically different. The second reason is the inherent safety built into the ams with the headgear and how the referees act. In the pros it is clear it is bloodsport and there has to be additional anxiety due to the lack of those protections.

Completely agree on the bold.

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They fight 3x3's now. When those fights are really good you are getting Hagler/Hearns levels of battle. This kid who won boxer of the tournament had 3 such fights in the space of 4 days. I don't care how you spin it, that takes real toughness & determination

In regard to your second point, I completely agree regarding how the referees act, they don't offer guys a chance to prove their toughness enough and come back from adversity. Where I disagree is the headguards. They are there to avoid cuts from headclashes. I've sparred with and without headguards & they make no difference if someone lands a big shot. They also inhibit head movement. It's a game of inches & they add on at least an extra one either side.

Even if the current amateur system is flawed it surely can't be detrimental to pro fighters?

How many "great" pros had no amateur success? I am not sure about this, but would be shocked if there were many great fighters with limited amateur experience. I Know about guys like Moore and Chavez with next to nothing amateur careers. But they ended up with a million pro fights.

Having a quick look at todays P4P top ten, only Pongsaklek Wonjongkam has no amateur record (i can find), but has reached 82 pro bouts. Everyone else was a successful amateur. Even guys like Pac and Marquez that turned pro as teenagers.

So.. amateur experience surely plays a major role in the progress of pro fighters? Still even today...