The Hype with Saul Alverez (apologies if spelt incorrectly!)

[marbleheadmaui]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?
How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

[scratching head]

The bold makes no logical sense that I can see. Let me try it this way. Boxing is no different than any other human endeavor. The more one does it, the better one gets (up until of course one gets too old or takes too many blows). But one is still capped by one's potential. One can learn to do everything properly, but if one has slow hands, slow feet, a weak chin and no natural power? he's only going to be able to be so good. The term you'll sometimes hear about a guy who does everything right and still isn't very good is LOFT (lack of effing talent). Put another way, take Floyd Mayweather's toolbox and train him the same way and have him fight the same comp as an untalented, but fully skilled guy? Floyd turns out better. But here's the thing. Take a highly talented, limited skill and craft guy and match him up with a moderately talented highly skilled and crafty guy? I'll bet on the latter everty time.

As far as Alvarez goes specifically? I think his development of skill and craft is essential because I don't see a pile of talent jumping off the screen at me. Do you? Of course I never saw a pile of talent coming off the screen from a guy like Juan Manuel Marquez either and he's done ok.

I think amateur fighting today can be as much detriment as help. Due to the headgear and silly scoring system the two sports are more different than they have ever been. In the ams one doesn't get rewarded for power, bodypunching and toughness the way one does in the pro's.

As far as inexperienced pro's? I can only look at how the greats were brought along and it seems reasonably consistent. Fight every month or more until one is nearly fully developed.

There's been a recent change to the scoring system that should rectify this. What do you mean by toughness?

I've just been at a 3 day event in London called the Haringey Box Cup that has boxers from around the world competing in it. The guy who won the Boxer of the Tournament, displayed all of those qualities to win. In fact, that is what got him it rather than any kind of technical point-scoring. The problem is those kind of qualities tend to see a lot of guys burn out very early as pros.

On Alvarez, I was very impressed. He beat the #4 ranked LMW in the world (& a guy who should have had a shot about a year ago) comfortably & closed the show in style. I loved his head movement & thought this was the perfect example of a guy learning his craft on the job. He's a decent enough titlist after that performance. He may not be ready for Manny, Floyd or Sergio, but who is? I'd fancy him against Cotto.

I am THRILLED the scoring has been changed! Looking forward to see the impact!

The toughness necessary in the pros is fundamentally different, in my view, than that needed in the amateurs for two reasons. First is having to perform while exhausted and depleted. Ten and 12 rounds of concentration, accepting blows etc isn't a little different from four two minute rounds, it is galactically different. The second reason is the inherent safety built into the ams with the headgear and how the referees act. In the pros it is clear it is bloodsport and there has to be additional anxiety due to the lack of those protections.

Completely agree on the bold.

[JazMerkin]

I am THRILLED the scoring has been changed! Looking forward to see the impact!

The toughness necessary in the pros is fundamentally different, in my view, than that needed in the amateurs for two reasons. First is having to perform while exhausted and depleted. Ten and 12 rounds of concentration, accepting blows etc isn't a little different from four two minute rounds, it is galactically different. The second reason is the inherent safety built into the ams with the headgear and how the referees act. In the pros it is clear it is bloodsport and there has to be additional anxiety due to the lack of those protections.

Completely agree on the bold.

They fight 3x3's now. When those fights are really good you are getting Hagler/Hearns levels of battle. This kid who won boxer of the tournament had 3 such fights in the space of 4 days. I don't care how you spin it, that takes real toughness & determination

In regard to your second point, I completely agree regarding how the referees act, they don't offer guys a chance to prove their toughness enough and come back from adversity. Where I disagree is the headguards. They are there to avoid cuts from headclashes. I've sparred with and without headguards & they make no difference if someone lands a big shot. They also inhibit head movement. It's a game of inches & they add on at least an extra one either side.

[Fenster]

Even if the current amateur system is flawed it surely can't be detrimental to pro fighters?

How many "great" pros had no amateur success? I am not sure about this, but would be shocked if there were many great fighters with limited amateur experience. I Know about guys like Moore and Chavez with next to nothing amateur careers. But they ended up with a million pro fights.

Having a quick look at todays P4P top ten, only Pongsaklek Wonjongkam has no amateur record (i can find), but has reached 82 pro bouts. Everyone else was a successful amateur. Even guys like Pac and Marquez that turned pro as teenagers.

So.. amateur experience surely plays a major role in the progress of pro fighters? Still even today...

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Ah but tomorrow is a different day

[Dark Lord Al]

I actually like watching Alverez , he looks a well schooled fighter , he is so fast , but does seem to lack a bit of power , as for being a fraud ? I fail to see why.
He is a good improving fighter , lets judge him after he fights some better fighters.
I think a fight with Kermit Cintron would answer alot of questions.

[Fenster]

I actually like watching Alverez , he looks a well schooled fighter , he is so fast , but does seem to lack a bit of power , as for being a fraud ? I fail to see why.
He is a good improving fighter , lets judge him after he fights some better fighters.
I think a fight with Kermit Cintron would answer alot of questions.

Just to put the record straight - Fenster does not think Alvarez is a fraud. Fenster was playing with VD.

I think Alvarez will do very well... for a Mexifraud. Fact.

[Dark Lord Al]

I actually like watching Alverez , he looks a well schooled fighter , he is so fast , but does seem to lack a bit of power , as for being a fraud ? I fail to see why.
He is a good improving fighter , lets judge him after he fights some better fighters.
I think a fight with Kermit Cintron would answer alot of questions.

Just to put the record straight - Fenster does not think Alvarez is a fraud. Fenster was playing with VD.

I think Alvarez will do very well... for a Mexifraud. Fact.

He has hands like Meldrick Taylor , blindingly fast, be interesting what would happen it Cintron went for an early ko.

[marbleheadmaui]

Even if the current amateur system is flawed it surely can't be detrimental to pro fighters?

How many "great" pros had no amateur success? I am not sure about this, but would be shocked if there were many great fighters with limited amateur experience. I Know about guys like Moore and Chavez with next to nothing amateur careers. But they ended up with a million pro fights.

Having a quick look at todays P4P top ten, only Pongsaklek Wonjongkam has no amateur record (i can find), but has reached 82 pro bouts. Everyone else was a successful amateur. Even guys like Pac and Marquez that turned pro as teenagers.

So.. amateur experience surely plays a major role in the progress of pro fighters? Still even today...

For starters every great fighter pre say 1920 had no real amateur background. But we may be mixing two different concepts up. If you're saying almost all great fighters started young in the gym? I completely agree. If you are saying amateur success or vast amateur experience is critical? I can cite lots of examples where it wasn't. JCC, Dick Tiger, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran had I think 15 amateur fights, Jimmy McClarnin was a pro at 15 how much could he have done in the ams? Want crazy though? How about Jimmy Wilde being entirely self taught?

I also think it is fair to say that the ams over since 1988 have been as problematic as they have been helpful.

[Nameless]

It's quite difficult to know how far and where will El Canelo reach his "peak", there is often lots of hope built around young fighters, sometimes real, sometimes for the sake of promotion. We don't know yet how strong mentally he is but for the moment being, I think that it would be unfair to downgrade what he did, especially as he is only 20 years old and a long of maturity to buckle under his belt before we see the full potential (disappointing or not) that he has to offer.
I think that what he did so far is great, now let's see the man grow up and show what he has for what's coming next.

[Fenster]

Even if the current amateur system is flawed it surely can't be detrimental to pro fighters?

How many "great" pros had no amateur success? I am not sure about this, but would be shocked if there were many great fighters with limited amateur experience. I Know about guys like Moore and Chavez with next to nothing amateur careers. But they ended up with a million pro fights.

Having a quick look at todays P4P top ten, only Pongsaklek Wonjongkam has no amateur record (i can find), but has reached 82 pro bouts. Everyone else was a successful amateur. Even guys like Pac and Marquez that turned pro as teenagers.

So.. amateur experience surely plays a major role in the progress of pro fighters? Still even today...

For starters every great fighter pre say 1920 had no real amateur background. But we may be mixing two different concepts up. If you're saying almost all great fighters started young in the gym? I completely agree. If you are saying amateur success or vast amateur experience is critical? I can cite lots of examples where it wasn't. JCC, Dick Tiger, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran had I think 15 amateur fights, Jimmy McClarnin was a pro at 15 how much could he have done in the ams? Want crazy though? How about Jimmy Wilde being entirely self taught?

I also think it is fair to say that the ams over since 1988 have been as problematic as they have been helpful.

You said that amateur boxing is currently detrimental to pros (arguably). I am saying there is no real evidence of this (from admittedly a brief look). You may believe fighters are technically getting worse, but the actual results/records indicate that the best amateurs will be expected to make the best pros. The training, ring experience and fight environment alone must be considered a huge advantage, no? You strongly argue that more fights means better fighter, right?

I am also raising the idea that fighters with next to no amateur experience will be matched more frequently as pros, because they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't have any real evidence of this, just a guess.

For instance - In Chavez's first 18 months as a pro he fought 18 times before being matched with a fighter that had more than 10 wins on his record. And he was a journeyman coming off a string of losses. He needed to learn against a load of "gimmes."

How many former amatuer champions have been matched so carefully? (i'm sure you'll give me a massive list )

[marbleheadmaui]

Even if the current amateur system is flawed it surely can't be detrimental to pro fighters?

How many "great" pros had no amateur success? I am not sure about this, but would be shocked if there were many great fighters with limited amateur experience. I Know about guys like Moore and Chavez with next to nothing amateur careers. But they ended up with a million pro fights.

Having a quick look at todays P4P top ten, only Pongsaklek Wonjongkam has no amateur record (i can find), but has reached 82 pro bouts. Everyone else was a successful amateur. Even guys like Pac and Marquez that turned pro as teenagers.

So.. amateur experience surely plays a major role in the progress of pro fighters? Still even today...

For starters every great fighter pre say 1920 had no real amateur background. But we may be mixing two different concepts up. If you're saying almost all great fighters started young in the gym? I completely agree. If you are saying amateur success or vast amateur experience is critical? I can cite lots of examples where it wasn't. JCC, Dick Tiger, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran had I think 15 amateur fights, Jimmy McClarnin was a pro at 15 how much could he have done in the ams? Want crazy though? How about Jimmy Wilde being entirely self taught?

I also think it is fair to say that the ams over since 1988 have been as problematic as they have been helpful.

You said that amateur boxing is currently detrimental to pros (arguably). I am saying there is no real evidence of this (from admittedly a brief look). You may believe fighters are technically getting worse, but the actual results/records indicate that the best amateurs will be expected to make the best pros. The training, ring experience and fight environment alone must be considered a huge advantage, no? You strongly argue that more fights means better fighter, right?

I am also raising the idea that fighters with next to no amateur experience will be matched more frequently as pros, because they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't have any real evidence of this, just a guess.

For instance - In Chavez's first 18 months as a pro he fought 18 times before being matched with a fighter that had more than 10 wins on his record. And he was a journeyman coming off a string of losses. He needed to learn against a load of "gimmes."

How many former amatuer champions have been matched so carefully? (i'm sure you'll give me a massive list )

There has been, in the last 15 years, a tremendous decline in the skill and craft levels displayed at the pro level in my view. The top of the sport has also never, ever been older. Now either the raw material stinks or the teaching has fallen apart or WHAT is being taught has changed (or some combo). I find the timing of the early 1990's amateur rule changes very interesting in this regard.

You are assuming amateur fights equal pro fights. I dispute that. More amateur fights will make a better amateur fighter. More pro fights will make a better pro fighter. Given the evidence of the last decade and a half? It isn't clear to me at all that more amateur fights make a better pro fighter. Look at the recent Cubans, specifically Gamboa. Look at how completely he had to remake himself at the pro level. Now let's do a thought experiment. Gamboa turns pro at 21 instead of 26. Today he'd have 40+ fights instead of twenty and he would have remade himself five years ago instead of 18 months ago. Who in your view would be the superior fighter?

If amateur fights, even in the old days with regular judging and no headgear, were the same as pro fights? Top amateurs would all have started in the pro's the way Kostya Tszyu did instead of him being a huge exception to how fighters have always been brought along.

You wrote this and I don't really understand the point (sorry)

I am also raising the idea that fighters with next to no amateur experience will be matched more frequently as pros, because they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't have any real evidence of this, just a guess.

But as to how many former amateur champions have been matched so carefully? Up until about 1995 the answer would have been not that many. Laszlo Papp, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Howard Davis, Michael Spinks, Roy Jones etc. sure weren't. But again, all those guys pre-date the 1990-ish rule changes.

In this era of "gotta be unbeaten" instead of "gotta be developed?"

Deontay Wilder still hasn't fought anyone, and I see propsects fighting every week against palookas just to pad records rather than test and develop them. It baffles me. But I think there is a point I am missing here somehow (help?)

[Pavlik]

looks, youth, talent, physicality, marketable, power. flawed but yet again still young. i'm sold, he is indeed the future of boxing

[Fenster]

There has been, in the last 15 years, a tremendous decline in the skill and craft levels displayed at the pro level in my view. The top of the sport has also never, ever been older. Now either the raw material stinks or the teaching has fallen apart or WHAT is being taught has changed (or some combo). I find the timing of the early 1990's amateur rule changes very interesting in this regard.

You are assuming amateur fights equal pro fights. I dispute that. More amateur fights will make a better amateur fighter. More pro fights will make a better pro fighter. Given the evidence of the last decade and a half? It isn't clear to me at all that more amateur fights make a better pro fighter. Look at the recent Cubans, specifically Gamboa. Look at how completely he had to remake himself at the pro level. Now let's do a thought experiment. Gamboa turns pro at 21 instead of 26. Today he'd have 40+ fights instead of twenty and he would have remade himself five years ago instead of 18 months ago. Who in your view would be the superior fighter?

If amateur fights, even in the old days with regular judging and no headgear, were the same as pro fights? Top amateurs would all have started in the pro's the way Kostya Tszyu did instead of him being a huge exception to how fighters have always been brought along.

You wrote this and I don't really understand the point (sorry)

I am also raising the idea that fighters with next to no amateur experience will be matched more frequently as pros, because they have a lot of catching up to do. I don't have any real evidence of this, just a guess.

But as to how many former amateur champions have been matched so carefully? Up until about 1995 the answer would have been not that many. Laszlo Papp, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Howard Davis, Michael Spinks, Roy Jones etc. sure weren't. But again, all those guys pre-date the 1990-ish rule changes.

In this era of "gotta be unbeaten" instead of "gotta be developed?"

Deontay Wilder still hasn't fought anyone, and I see propsects fighting every week against palookas just to pad records rather than test and develop them. It baffles me. But I think there is a point I am missing here somehow (help?)

Yes I know you believe the standard of boxing is rubbish compared to the good old days. That is irrelevant to my point. Which is amateur experience is clearly NOT detrimental during the transition to paid fighting. In fact it is a huge positive. And I am fully aware of the difference between amateur and professional fights.

Your judgment is based on what your eye sees. What you believe to be true. But the results indicate amateur experience is just as important now as it was before the rule changes.

Gamboa is a great example. The question is - not a fantasy "what if" scenario about what Gamboa could have been, but WHY is he a SUCCESS so fast? In 20 professional bouts he has a "world" title and is ranked no.1 in his divison. This is clearly linked to him being an outstanding amateur. Great things were expected of him. He was moved along faster. He quicky delivered.

Lets take a look at the current P4P top 10 (The RIng).

Andre Ward - Olympic Gold Medalist.
Klitschko - Olympic Gold Medalist.
Martinez - Arg champion, fought at 97 world championship.
Bradley - Multi USA title winner.
Donaire - Multi USA title winner.
Hopkins - Multi junior titles.

SIX of the current P4P top 10 were successful amateurs. Only Hopkins would have fought under the old rules. Pac had 64 amateur contests before turning pro as a teenager. Marquez had 36, turned pro as a teenager. Segura had 42, turned pro at 20. I can find nothing for Pongsaklek Wonjongkam.

You can argue that the "craft" and "skill" and "toughness" is lacking with all these modern fighters. But the fact is, amateur boxing has played a MAJOR part in their careers. And there are plenty of other successful amateurs currently top 10 rated as pros - Khan, Haye, Rigondeaux, Alexander, Golovkin, Dirrell, Povetkin, Kotelnik, Solis, Ortiz, etc. I'd be amazed if this list didn't far outweigh top rated fighters with no am experience, or little success there.

Padded records? It seems to me the less amateur experience the more padded a fighters record is (if they are being groomed for the top). This is exactly what I was getting at. Is Chavez record not padded through the early part of his career? Duran and Moore were both fighting top competition from the off? Were there no "palookas" in the old days? No-one ever had a "gimme?"

[marbleheadmaui]

I am THRILLED the scoring has been changed! Looking forward to see the impact!

The toughness necessary in the pros is fundamentally different, in my view, than that needed in the amateurs for two reasons. First is having to perform while exhausted and depleted. Ten and 12 rounds of concentration, accepting blows etc isn't a little different from four two minute rounds, it is galactically different. The second reason is the inherent safety built into the ams with the headgear and how the referees act. In the pros it is clear it is bloodsport and there has to be additional anxiety due to the lack of those protections.

Completely agree on the bold.

They fight 3x3's now. When those fights are really good you are getting Hagler/Hearns levels of battle. This kid who won boxer of the tournament had 3 such fights in the space of 4 days. I don't care how you spin it, that takes real toughness & determination

In regard to your second point, I completely agree regarding how the referees act, they don't offer guys a chance to prove their toughness enough and come back from adversity. Where I disagree is the headguards. They are there to avoid cuts from headclashes. I've sparred with and without headguards & they make no difference if someone lands a big shot. They also inhibit head movement. It's a game of inches & they add on at least an extra one either side.

I get the feeling you think I am denigrating the toughness of ams. I'm not. I am saying it is very, very, very different from the toughness needed for 10-12 round fights. I've been hit with shots with and without headgear as well. I'll take the headgear every time. And the inch doesn't matter in my view. It isn't the scraping shots that hurt, it is the shots flush on the chin, temple or ear that always made me wince.