How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
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How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
I just wonder if it is too late.
I'm sure paul knows he could fight from distance, probably can even do it to an extent. I just think his mentality is one of a trench fighter, he doesn't care that he could outbox ya from far he just likes to be in a phonebooth, and I think he genuinely enjoys it. However he could definitely learn to keep that right up and somebody needs to scream at him till he gets it. Till he does everyones just going to be shooting those lefts with him that had him rocked a few times Saturday, and that chin will fail him again sooner or later.
it is too late. He got tagged by Quintana, Margarito, Martinez (all for 12 rounds). In the Cintron fight, it looked like he was going to wilt (my opinion but I could be way off) but Cintron dove out of the ring. Then martinez KO'd him violently. Now back to taking clean shots for 12 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
PW looked off physically in the ring. He was destined to have a short prime and it is over. Too late for Manny to teach him how to not get hit by using his height and reach.
Kinds of like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube right now. I have to think Manny doesn't have the patience for Williams too.
Im in the middle on this one. I wouldn't be so quick to switch when outside of martinez williams has had no real issues. Close your eyes and look back five minutes and everyone was going on and on about how williams was the most feared, would beat anyone from bantam to super heavy etc and so on. If williams is garbage and needs a new trainer winning most of his fights out side of his loss and that one punch then the guys he's beaten need three new trainers. People react to quickly. Ortiz is shit one day and (laughing) can beat floyd the next would be the most recent example. williams is who he is. He'll win some and loose some. Fans are fickle. Go 60-0 and people will say you aint fought no one, Go 59-1 and all of the sudden 60 wins mean nothing and you're crap....just the way it goes i guess. And we wonder why so many records are padded. Paul likes to bang, sit back and enjoy it. If he "boxed" and used his height.......ask the klitch's how reworking your style and perfecting your skill is appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Mar
I dunno, those guys are making $5 million plus every time out and selling our 60,000 seat stadiums. I think PW would like that. ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Williams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
Manny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkQuote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Williams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
I think that Williams has all the attributes to sponsor the Kronk Style very well actually, especially because he doesn't use his reach and height enough. Manny sure knows how to force Williams to make the best of it. As for his precedent performances, one thing that Williams seems notarious for now is his struggle with southpaws and I am sure that any top notch trainer could help fix that problem in the middle run.
To be honest, I can't see how Williams could be effective as a typical 'Steward Fighter'. I can't even see how his faults can be remided by the typical Steward mould... He's not gun shy, doesn't have stamina problems, isn't bonecrunchingly powerful and doesn't have a good jab nor anything like a good boxing IQ. A Steward fighter usually has at least 3 of these faults/ assets.
Give him Enzo Calzaghe I say ;D
I don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
What did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiManny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkQuote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Williams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
Steward could do nothing for Williams because quite frankly Paul just isn't bright enough to take on board what he's taught. The guy apparently had 20 fights as an am in which he had a sub. 500 record. Now obviously that's the ams, but what it tells you is that he found it very difficult going in against guys on the fly & winning. He honed himself as a pro, but what he really did was take advantage of a particularly individual & remarkable athleticism.
The guy has never had to really learnt to move his head & relied on a great chin & pulling back off the shot in a straight line. If getting bust up in sparring, beaten by crafty boxers & actually being flat KO'd doesn't make you change up, nothing will whoever the trainer is. You also have to think that if he really stayed behind that jab whether he would have had the success he has. The ability to throw as many punches as he does means that he will open up to a guy with the head movement & ability to create angles as the opponents who've beaten him have.
Imo, he wouldn't have a W over Winky Wright (faded but the best name on his CV for me) if he was a typical Kronk boxer as it was a stylistically perfect match-up for him as he is. He also may have struggled to shock Margarito in the way he did early. The style has got him alphabets at 2 weights & millions of dollars & probably a damn sight more fans.
Hilmer Kenty, Tommy Hearns, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Milt McCrory (and his brother Steve) and Jimmy Paul all did more than OK with Manny. Hell Ray Arcel was known as "Joe Loui's trainer" because he brought in so many guys who lost to Louis. Does that mean Arcel was only "good?"Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkWhat did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiManny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkQuote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Williams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
By today's standards where the inept (like George Peterson and Jack Loew) are common even at the championship level, guys like Steward, Roach and Nacho provide a larger edge than probably at any time in boxing history.
Men like Williams and Pavlik have/are sacrificing/sacrificed their careers on the altar of loyalty. It's a terrible, terrible mistake.
We really do forget how much the ability and desire to learn are important boxing talents.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Oh we are going back 30 years now. Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiHilmer Kenty, Tommy Hearns, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Milt McCrory (and his brother Steve) and Jimmy Paul all did more than OK with Manny. Hell Ray Arcel was known as "Joe Loui's trainer" because he brought in so many guys who lost to Louis. Does that mean Arcel was only "good?"Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkWhat did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiManny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkQuote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Williams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
By today's standards where the inept (like George Peterson and Jack Loew) are common even at the championship level, guys like Steward, Roach and Nacho provide a larger edge than probably at any time in boxing history.
Men like Williams and Pavlik have/are sacrificing/sacrificed their careers on the altar of loyalty. It's a terrible, terrible mistake.
I'm talking recently besides the Klits, Steward has done shit for anybody besides bring Andy Lee to top 20 status.
And yeah Jack Loew is a fat moron. Hate that guy.
Paul Williams can't change now he's set in his ways.
Lots of truth about that being too loyal and so on, but sometimes a guy is at his best when he's with a trainer that knows him. Look at Jermain Taylor he swapped out his trainer for Manny and it didn't help him. Other guys are good no matter who's in their corner, look at De la Hoya or Holyfield.
What you think Manny's gotten WORSE as a trainer?Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkOh we are going back 30 years now. Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiHilmer Kenty, Tommy Hearns, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Milt McCrory (and his brother Steve) and Jimmy Paul all did more than OK with Manny. Hell Ray Arcel was known as "Joe Loui's trainer" because he brought in so many guys who lost to Louis. Does that mean Arcel was only "good?"Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkWhat did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiManny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkQuote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Williams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
By today's standards where the inept (like George Peterson and Jack Loew) are common even at the championship level, guys like Steward, Roach and Nacho provide a larger edge than probably at any time in boxing history.
Men like Williams and Pavlik have/are sacrificing/sacrificed their careers on the altar of loyalty. It's a terrible, terrible mistake.
I'm talking recently besides the Klits, Steward has done shit for anybody besides bring Andy Lee to top 20 status.
And yeah Jack Loew is a fat moron. Hate that guy.
Taylor is a good example of a guy who waited too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Cotto has been helped by Manny. Andy Lee is ok with Manny, 1 loss which he's been ready to avenge for a long time. I think Dawson can get help from Manny.
Honestly for Williams I think his best bet for a different trainer to help him out would have been someone like Ronnie Shields or Pat Burns, not "super" trainers but good guys that know their stuff and could help with fundamentals.
Whatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Jermain Taylor seemed to regress under the coaching of Steward.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiTaylor is a good example of a guy who waited too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Smart Man. Great observation. My thoughts exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
It was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWhatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Floyd Sr can teach him defense. That's all he need to learn. Especially since he like to fight in the pocket. A shoulder role will do the kids wonders.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessShields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Like someone else said, I don't think Paul is well done yet. He close but not yet. He could very well scout his next opponent, a righty, and not get hit as much and win a title
i.e. K9 and/or Saul
don't get me wrong, if he get caught by either, it won't be no need for a bedtime story.
He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.
That really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinHe wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.
Definitely. I've long thought that George Peterson is a blow-hard of the highest order. It's fine to talk some shit, if you've really taught some fighters the ropes in the way guys like Kevin Cunningham or the Mayweathers have. But Peterson seems to just encourage Williams to keep trying to out-throw his opponent & just trots out stock phrases like 'take his left hand away' without advising how to actually do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThat really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
It was one of the real shocks for me when I went over to the US recently & sparred. I went over with this idea in my head of damn near every fighter being a mini-Mayweather or Hopkins. Instead all the guys I sparred were strong, but remarkably stupid in the ring. Just charging forward over-eager to stand & trade. I'm really not some fantastic boxer & regularly get busted up in the gym, yet I felt like Ray Leonard. Now there's obviously gyms still creating excellent talents (there was another that looked to have some great guys that I wanted to go to in DC, but then I looked at the murder rate in that area :o), but I suspect this gym was symptomatic of many & probably the kind of gym that Peterson ran.
I just don't believe Dawson's issues in the ring are going to be changed by Manny or anyone else, and to make matters worse, his fights are snoozers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliIt was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWhatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
There has been a real distinction between the US and Brit teaching styles that goes back at least 100 years. In various books I've read men like Dempsey, Ross, Wilde, Buchanan all talk about it. Back foot vs front foot, left hand emphasis vs power punching emphasis etc. It's pretty interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinDefinitely. I've long thought that George Peterson is a blow-hard of the highest order. It's fine to talk some shit, if you've really taught some fighters the ropes in the way guys like Kevin Cunningham or the Mayweathers have. But Peterson seems to just encourage Williams to keep trying to out-throw his opponent & just trots out stock phrases like 'take his left hand away' without advising how to actually do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThat really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
It was one of the real shocks for me when I went over to the US recently & sparred. I went over with this idea in my head of damn near every fighter being a mini-Mayweather or Hopkins. Instead all the guys I sparred were strong, but remarkably stupid in the ring. Just charging forward over-eager to stand & trade. I'm really not some fantastic boxer & regularly get busted up in the gym, yet I felt like Ray Leonard. Now there's obviously gyms still creating excellent talents (there was another that looked to have some great guys that I wanted to go to in DC, but then I looked at the murder rate in that area :o), but I suspect this gym was symptomatic of many & probably the kind of gym that Peterson ran.
I think your experience with the US guys is symptomatic of the decline in teaching in the USA though. I mean go back 25-30 years in the US and look at the rankings.
The US had guys known for their banging like Leonard and Hearns and Curry and Hagler and Mike Spinks. But every one of those guys were complete boxers as well. Today? We have guys like Bradley and BHOP and Ward, who are complete fighters but cannot punch, or guys like Rios or Ortiz or Berto, who can punch but aren't remotely complete fighters.
Dawson's problem isn't that he needs to fight tall, stay behind the jab, and protect his chin. His problem is he doesn't push it in the ring. If he is winning, he takes rounds off. If he has a round wide, he often takes the last part of the round off. He didn't show any urgency against Pascal when he was losing until the final few rounds. He just lacks the normal aggressiveness you see in an elite fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI just don't believe Dawson's issues in the ring are going to be changed by Manny or anyone else, and to make matters worse, his fights are snoozers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliIt was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWhatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
I don't think you can teach Dawson what he doesn't have. The desire to hurt someone with his shots and to stay on the opponent until he does.
Huh. So he lacks the sadism gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewHuh, so he lacks the sadism gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI just don't believe Dawson's issues in the ring are going to be changed by Manny or anyone else, and to make matters worse, his fights are snoozers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliIt was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWhatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Dawson's problem isn't that he needs to fight tall, stay behind the jab, and protect his chin. His problem is he doesn't push it in the ring. If he is winning, he takes rounds off. If he has a round wide, he often takes the last part of the round off. He didn't show any urgency against Pascal when he was losing until the final few rounds. He just lacks the normal aggressiveness you see in an elite fighter.
I don't think you can teach Dawson what he doesn't have. The desire to hurt someone with his shots and to stay on the opponent until he does.
don't have to be sadistic but you do need to take a little pleasure in busting up an opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiHuh. So he lacks the sadism gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewHuh, so he lacks the sadism gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI just don't believe Dawson's issues in the ring are going to be changed by Manny or anyone else, and to make matters worse, his fights are snoozers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliIt was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWhatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Dawson's problem isn't that he needs to fight tall, stay behind the jab, and protect his chin. His problem is he doesn't push it in the ring. If he is winning, he takes rounds off. If he has a round wide, he often takes the last part of the round off. He didn't show any urgency against Pascal when he was losing until the final few rounds. He just lacks the normal aggressiveness you see in an elite fighter.
I don't think you can teach Dawson what he doesn't have. The desire to hurt someone with his shots and to stay on the opponent until he does.
I can't think of a great fighter who didn't...or at least one who hadn't severely injured or killed someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewdon't have to be sadistic but you do need to take a little pleasure in busting up an opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiHuh. So he lacks the sadism gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewHuh, so he lacks the sadism gene?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI just don't believe Dawson's issues in the ring are going to be changed by Manny or anyone else, and to make matters worse, his fights are snoozers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliIt was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axWhatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickster4
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Dawson's problem isn't that he needs to fight tall, stay behind the jab, and protect his chin. His problem is he doesn't push it in the ring. If he is winning, he takes rounds off. If he has a round wide, he often takes the last part of the round off. He didn't show any urgency against Pascal when he was losing until the final few rounds. He just lacks the normal aggressiveness you see in an elite fighter.
I don't think you can teach Dawson what he doesn't have. The desire to hurt someone with his shots and to stay on the opponent until he does.
I agree with all of that with the exception of punching. I think Hopkins was a pretty good puncher at Middleweight, but I don't think he really carried the snap up with him & his drop in speed & work-rate has seen his power fall away. But, yeah I do agree on the standard of US teaching. I will hold that I didn't go to the best gyms in the city because I wasn't so desperate for quality sparring that I was willing to get shot or robbed ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThere has been a real distinction between the US and Brit teaching styles that goes back at least 100 years. In various books I've read men like Dempsey, Ross, Wilde, Buchanan all talk about it. Back foot vs front foot, left hand emphasis vs power punching emphasis etc. It's pretty interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinDefinitely. I've long thought that George Peterson is a blow-hard of the highest order. It's fine to talk some shit, if you've really taught some fighters the ropes in the way guys like Kevin Cunningham or the Mayweathers have. But Peterson seems to just encourage Williams to keep trying to out-throw his opponent & just trots out stock phrases like 'take his left hand away' without advising how to actually do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiThat really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
It was one of the real shocks for me when I went over to the US recently & sparred. I went over with this idea in my head of damn near every fighter being a mini-Mayweather or Hopkins. Instead all the guys I sparred were strong, but remarkably stupid in the ring. Just charging forward over-eager to stand & trade. I'm really not some fantastic boxer & regularly get busted up in the gym, yet I felt like Ray Leonard. Now there's obviously gyms still creating excellent talents (there was another that looked to have some great guys that I wanted to go to in DC, but then I looked at the murder rate in that area :o), but I suspect this gym was symptomatic of many & probably the kind of gym that Peterson ran.
I think your experience with the US guys is symptomatic of the decline in teaching in the USA though. I mean go back 25-30 years in the US and look at the rankings.
The US had guys known for their banging like Leonard and Hearns and Curry and Hagler and Mike Spinks. But every one of those guys were complete boxers as well. Today? We have guys like Bradley and BHOP and Ward, who are complete fighters but cannot punch, or guys like Rios or Ortiz or Berto, who can punch but aren't remotely complete fighters.
I also box at one of the better clubs in London, where there is a deeper pool than elsewhere, so maybe I'm just comparing an apple with a mouldy orange. But it really did shock me how unrefined these guys were. They didn't work behind the jab so much as flick it out as a distraction as they tried to line up the big back hand or lead hook. I definitely think it's a decline. There's probably a strong argument that there's been a decline over here as well, but probably nowhere near as huge.
I mean going back further, I remember when I first watched footage of Jake LaMotta. I was watching a lot of Cotto fights at the time, a man who was considered a combo of power & technical skill. I expected to see the LaMotta I'd heard described, a messy brawler. Instead I saw a guy doing all the things that I so admired watching Cotto for, using a clever jab & nice head movement to get inside. I think maybe too many guys watched Raging Bull or Rocky & thought that is how you actually box :-\
Yup. You watch footage of men with reputations as hard men or unskilled brawlers like LaMotta or Tony Zale or Carmen Basilio and you realize they really knew what they were doing. But you have to be an educated fan to know what you're watching.Quote:
I agree with all of that with the exception of punching. I think Hopkins was a pretty good puncher at Middleweight, but I don't think he really carried the snap up with him & his drop in speed & work-rate has seen his power fall away. But, yeah I do agree on the standard of US teaching. I will hold that I didn't go to the best gyms in the city because I wasn't so desperate for quality sparring that I was willing to get shot or robbed ;D
I also box at one of the better clubs in London, where there is a deeper pool than elsewhere, so maybe I'm just comparing an apple with a mouldy orange. But it really did shock me how unrefined these guys were. They didn't work behind the jab so much as flick it out as a distraction as they tried to line up the big back hand or lead hook. I definitely think it's a decline. There's probably a strong argument that there's been a decline over here as well, but probably nowhere near as huge.
I mean going back further, I remember when I first watched footage of Jake LaMotta. I was watching a lot of Cotto fights at the time, a man who was considered a combo of power & technical skill. I expected to see the LaMotta I'd heard described, a messy brawler. Instead I saw a guy doing all the things that I so admired watching Cotto for, using a clever jab & nice head movement to get inside. I think maybe too many guys watched Raging Bull or Rocky & thought that is how you actually box :-\
I don't know that ten year old kids bring preconceptions with them to a boxing gym that last very long. In my expereince they are pretty malleable, at least initially. It's the teaching and the teachers.
In Canada,
It seems to take all another road and be totally the opposite; never has been boxing so popular, there are a couple of gyms that opened, all another landscape than it was only 15 years ago. Many people are now interested into that sport, not only the casual specialist and I think that we never had as much potential as we do have now. I am not saying that Canada is the next big powerhouse in boxing but when you look all the galas that are sold our that we do organize in Montreal, it's amazing, now Toronto seems to take the same tendency if I refer to a conversation I had with youngblood about it. Hopefully it can spread to the other provinces as well.
As for the US, I am pretty sure it is just a matter of cycle, such a big country with large ressources can't stay "down" eternally.