Normally challengers chase champions but Sergio is doing his hardest to get the fight with JCC Jnr, giving up the super belt and almost begging for the match.
Any other examples in history that did this?
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Normally challengers chase champions but Sergio is doing his hardest to get the fight with JCC Jnr, giving up the super belt and almost begging for the match.
Any other examples in history that did this?
For starters the middle weight division is a bit weak at the moment,going back in time Hagler went through all comers he had his super-fights and beat all the contenders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Mind you the guy was fearsome,at his moment in time the middle weights was a very strong division
mind you I would say Sergio is no Hagler. You may think I'm being harsh on him and you can only
beat whose about at the time.
May be I was spoiled in the 80's with all them great fighters,I feel sometimes perhaps I may be to
critical of some of today's fighters.Remember if you eat T bone steaks,then you have burger I no what
I prefer you can have a good burger, but a T bone is in a diff rent class my friends.;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Interesting. I can't think of any right off hand, but I'm sure it's happened.
You basically need few ingredients for this to happen. You have to have a high-profile challenger or highly-ranked contender who gets more press than the champion. You have to have a sometimes unappreciated champion, who is miffed by the lack of attention that is rather given to the challenger. You have to have a champion that KNOWS he can kick the challenger's ass if only given the chance. AND... you have to have a challenger who's being protected at all costs by some higher up authority. Be it your own famous daddy, or the president of the boxing entity who is also in on the conspiracy to protect the challenger.
With Sergio vs. Baby Chavez it's: check... check... check... a-a-a-a-a-n-d..... CHECK!!
Middleweight is weak? We got a lot of fresh talent here, granted not all of them been really tested but it is not a division void of talent. As for champs chasing challangers Jack Johnson comes to mind.
Johnson was chasing Hart for the title but cannot remember him chasing anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
I believe you are correct, I think I was thinking of Johnson wanting to fight John L Sullivan but that's not a champ going after a challanger.
Not to sound like a boxing geek, but John L Sullivan was years before Jack Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
The ones I could offer which are a bit dubious, could be :-
Hagler v Leonard
Holyfield v Tyson
Vitali v Haye
The Klitschkos are chasing cruisers and heavyweight challengers lately.
Hmm I swear I read somewhere when sullivan was asked why he wouldn't fight Johnson, he said he would never fight a Negro . Guess my memory is shoddy cause I checked and you're right Sullivan was an old fat man before Johnsons rise.
Yes he was supporting Jim Jeffries, the original white hope, to beat Jack Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
Funny that you mention that. Last night i was watching the rise and fall of Jack Johnson and man I still feel bad for Ketchel. That short chopping right is the kind of punch that could kill a man.
I think you can see Johnson wiping away the teeth of Ketchel from his glove with that punch. Ketchel must have been the Julian Jackson of his era to knock down Johnson earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
not so sure about your assessment of the two fighters...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Interesting. I can't think of any right off hand, but I'm sure it's happened.
You basically need few ingredients for this to happen. You have to have a high-profile challenger or highly-ranked contender who gets more press than the champion. You have to have a sometimes unappreciated champion, who is miffed by the lack of attention that is rather given to the challenger. You have to have a champion that KNOWS he can kick the challenger's ass if only given the chance. AND... you have to have a challenger who's being protected at all costs by some higher up authority. Be it your own famous daddy, or the president of the boxing entity who is also in on the conspiracy to protect the challenger.
With Sergio vs. Baby Chavez it's: check... check... check... a-a-a-a-a-n-d..... CHECK!!
martinez 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 6-2-3. he won on Points in a 8 round bout.
chavez jr's 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 21-6-2. he won by 4th round KO.
martinez 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 6-0-1. martinez won UD/8.
chavez jr's 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 21-7-3 he won UD/10
martinez 40th fight was against a guy with a 1-7-2 record. he won KO5/8.
chavez junior's 40th opponent was 23-0-0. he won by UD/10
not sure why everyone complains about chavez junior's padded record when its clearly martinez who's consistently faced bunk opposition.
Also: martinez has fought 6 more fights than chavez jr... so if you were to erase the last 6 fights from martinez record; you'd find his most recent fight to have been a Draw against cintron. if you examine his record before that you'd have to agree that he's fought a bunch of nobodies.
Jones Jr comes to mind. Think he got a bit bored for a while there as he was calling out Tito a couple of times. Remember Mark Johnson yelling for Tapia endlessly while and after Tapia vacated. He jumped a division, so Johnson jumped a division etc. Has to be tons of lesser known champs who clamored to get any type of name in defense.
this is where it gets tricky, you see you can fight someone with a record of 30:30 like Emmanual Augustus or you can fight someone like a previously undefeated Rico Ramos. The number of wins and losses on a record at a glance are not always indicative as to the quality of the opposition.
i.e you can pad your record fighting someone with a padded record. Now I am not suggesting that Chavez jr. is doing that. I'm merely stating that the record of opponents at a first glance doesn't tell the full story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocconot so sure about your assessment of the two fighters...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Interesting. I can't think of any right off hand, but I'm sure it's happened.
You basically need few ingredients for this to happen. You have to have a high-profile challenger or highly-ranked contender who gets more press than the champion. You have to have a sometimes unappreciated champion, who is miffed by the lack of attention that is rather given to the challenger. You have to have a champion that KNOWS he can kick the challenger's ass if only given the chance. AND... you have to have a challenger who's being protected at all costs by some higher up authority. Be it your own famous daddy, or the president of the boxing entity who is also in on the conspiracy to protect the challenger.
With Sergio vs. Baby Chavez it's: check... check... check... a-a-a-a-a-n-d..... CHECK!!
martinez 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 6-2-3. he won on Points in a 8 round bout.
chavez jr's 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 21-6-2. he won by 4th round KO.
martinez 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 6-0-1. martinez won UD/8.
chavez jr's 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 21-7-3 he won UD/10
martinez 40th fight was against a guy with a 1-7-2 record. he won KO5/8.
chavez junior's 40th opponent was 23-0-0. he won by UD/10
not sure why everyone complains about chavez junior's padded record when its clearly martinez who's consistently faced bunk opposition.
Also: martinez has fought 6 more fights than chavez jr... so if you were to erase the last 6 fights from martinez record; you'd find his most recent fight to have been a Draw against cintron. if you examine his record before that you'd have to agree that he's fought a bunch of nobodies.
Pretty good job handpicking "milestone" fights to show an "advantage" toward JCC Jr.
;)
To be honest, Sergio's record IS littered with bums with losing records. No disputing that. A lot of those were in his native Argentina, where he obviously fattened his record also. HOWEVER..... there's no defending Baby Chavez.
Regardless of the numbers, Sergio has fought the likes of: Paul Williams, Kelly Pavlik, Kermit Cintron, Antonio Margarito. Who the hell has "The Coddled One" fought? John Duddy, Manfredo Jr., Rubio. And his only TKO as of late came against the "mighty" Manfredo Jr., he of the feather fists.
Give me a frigging break here. Chavez has never fought a dangerous opponent. It's all part of the master plan by his overbearing daddy, and the scumbag Jose Sulaiman, in an effort to get him to the 100-victory milestone, just like his daddy.
Who, by the way, did his OWN fattening of his OWN record. In the past I posted some pretty telling statistics where "Daddy" fought his first 40+ fights against fighters with a cummulative LOSING RECORD! That's pretty damn hard to do. You gotta fight a lot of 0-10 bums for that to happen. Yeah... he later became a great fighter and fought great opposition. But fact of the matter is he reached 100 wins because the first 45 or so fights were against worthless bums, and ALL of them in Mexico.
So you can't blame the guy for wanting his coddled son to follow in his carefully chosen footsteps. The chances of Junior facing a live and dangerous opponent any time soon are about as great as the chances of my winning the lottery..... and I don't even play the lottery.
;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocconot so sure about your assessment of the two fighters...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Interesting. I can't think of any right off hand, but I'm sure it's happened.
You basically need few ingredients for this to happen. You have to have a high-profile challenger or highly-ranked contender who gets more press than the champion. You have to have a sometimes unappreciated champion, who is miffed by the lack of attention that is rather given to the challenger. You have to have a champion that KNOWS he can kick the challenger's ass if only given the chance. AND... you have to have a challenger who's being protected at all costs by some higher up authority. Be it your own famous daddy, or the president of the boxing entity who is also in on the conspiracy to protect the challenger.
With Sergio vs. Baby Chavez it's: check... check... check... a-a-a-a-a-n-d..... CHECK!!
martinez 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 6-2-3. he won on Points in a 8 round bout.
chavez jr's 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 21-6-2. he won by 4th round KO.
martinez 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 6-0-1. martinez won UD/8.
chavez jr's 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 21-7-3 he won UD/10
martinez 40th fight was against a guy with a 1-7-2 record. he won KO5/8.
chavez junior's 40th opponent was 23-0-0. he won by UD/10
not sure why everyone complains about chavez junior's padded record when its clearly martinez who's consistently faced bunk opposition.
Also: martinez has fought 6 more fights than chavez jr... so if you were to erase the last 6 fights from martinez record; you'd find his most recent fight to have been a Draw against cintron. if you examine his record before that you'd have to agree that he's fought a bunch of nobodies.
Pretty good job handpicking "milestone" fights to show an "advantage" toward JCC Jr.
;)
To be honest, Sergio's record IS littered with bums with losing records. No disputing that. A lot of those were in his native Argentina, where he obviously fattened his record also. HOWEVER..... there's no defending Baby Chavez.
Regardless of the numbers, Sergio has fought the likes of: Paul Williams, Kelly Pavlik, Kermit Cintron, Antonio Margarito. Who the hell has "The Coddled One" fought? John Duddy, Manfredo Jr., Rubio. And his only TKO as of late came against the "mighty" Manfredo Jr., he of the feather fists.
Give me a frigging break here. Chavez has never fought a dangerous opponent. It's all part of the master plan by his overbearing daddy, and the scumbag Jose Sulaiman, in an effort to get him to the 100-victory milestone, just like his daddy.
Who, by the way, did his OWN fattening of his OWN record. In the past I posted some pretty telling statistics where "Daddy" fought his first 40+ fights against fighters with a cummulative LOSING RECORD! That's pretty damn hard to do. You gotta fight a lot of 0-10 bums for that to happen. Yeah... he later became a great fighter and fought great opposition. But fact of the matter is he reached 100 wins because the first 45 or so fights were against worthless bums, and ALL of them in Mexico.
So you can't blame the guy for wanting his coddled son to follow in his carefully chosen footsteps. The chances of Junior facing a live and dangerous opponent any time soon are about as great as the chances of my winning the lottery..... and I don't even play the lottery.
;)
what you typed there is all very nice, but i hadn't reviewed the performance of the two fighters before writing the post. which is what you seem to suggest in the bold part of your text above.
i figured a fighter would want a showcase fight for his 20th, 30th and 40th fights. it just so happens that martinez chose to fight fighters with poor or losing records, whereas chavez jr. chose to face guys with solid winning records...
i addressed the issue of martinez having 6 more fights than chavez jr... if you were to ignore martinez last 6 fights you'd see he hadn't faced any credible opposition to that point either.
also, i certainly didn't have a say in "handpicking" the fighters that the two champions chose to fight. altho, i'm flattered that you'd attribute me such "pull". these are simple observations that suggest a trend.
I don't have any good examples off the top of my head. I'm sure they're out there though. I know Andre Ward has somewhat campaigned for a fight with Sergio Martinez at 168 for his belts, but it's not to the same extent.
The truth is Martinez is chasing Chavez Jr. because he is the biggest pay day available, not because he is the biggest challenge available. Martinez earns more money taking a 40/60 split with Chavez Jr. than he earns taking a champion's split against Macklin. A win over Chavez Jr. also may gain Martinez entrance into the Mexican boxing fanbase, possibly boxing's strongest ethnic fanbase, which creates dividends in future fights.
Bottom line: a Chavez Jr. fight is all about money. It's the same reason Sergio called out Miguel Cotto and Floyd Mayweather. Around that weight class, the biggest potential money-making fights are Chavez Jr., Canelo, Floyd, Cotto and Manny. The only other fighter around that weight class that has good earning potential is Lucian Bute in Canada, and maybe Carl Froch in England. Therefore, a likely scenario I can see happening is Sergio Martinez beats Chavez Jr. in the fall and then moves up in weight in his final hurrah against the winner of Bute or Froch, where he probably loses, although I give him a decent shot against Froch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocconot so sure about your assessment of the two fighters...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Interesting. I can't think of any right off hand, but I'm sure it's happened.
You basically need few ingredients for this to happen. You have to have a high-profile challenger or highly-ranked contender who gets more press than the champion. You have to have a sometimes unappreciated champion, who is miffed by the lack of attention that is rather given to the challenger. You have to have a champion that KNOWS he can kick the challenger's ass if only given the chance. AND... you have to have a challenger who's being protected at all costs by some higher up authority. Be it your own famous daddy, or the president of the boxing entity who is also in on the conspiracy to protect the challenger.
With Sergio vs. Baby Chavez it's: check... check... check... a-a-a-a-a-n-d..... CHECK!!
martinez 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 6-2-3. he won on Points in a 8 round bout.
chavez jr's 20th fight was against a guy with a record of 21-6-2. he won by 4th round KO.
martinez 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 6-0-1. martinez won UD/8.
chavez jr's 30th fight was against an opponent with a record of 21-7-3 he won UD/10
martinez 40th fight was against a guy with a 1-7-2 record. he won KO5/8.
chavez junior's 40th opponent was 23-0-0. he won by UD/10
not sure why everyone complains about chavez junior's padded record when its clearly martinez who's consistently faced bunk opposition.
Also: martinez has fought 6 more fights than chavez jr... so if you were to erase the last 6 fights from martinez record; you'd find his most recent fight to have been a Draw against cintron. if you examine his record before that you'd have to agree that he's fought a bunch of nobodies.
Pretty good job handpicking "milestone" fights to show an "advantage" toward JCC Jr.
;)
To be honest, Sergio's record IS littered with bums with losing records. No disputing that. A lot of those were in his native Argentina, where he obviously fattened his record also. HOWEVER..... there's no defending Baby Chavez.
Regardless of the numbers, Sergio has fought the likes of: Paul Williams, Kelly Pavlik, Kermit Cintron, Antonio Margarito. Who the hell has "The Coddled One" fought? John Duddy, Manfredo Jr., Rubio. And his only TKO as of late came against the "mighty" Manfredo Jr., he of the feather fists.
Give me a frigging break here. Chavez has never fought a dangerous opponent. It's all part of the master plan by his overbearing daddy, and the scumbag Jose Sulaiman, in an effort to get him to the 100-victory milestone, just like his daddy.
Who, by the way, did his OWN fattening of his OWN record. In the past I posted some pretty telling statistics where "Daddy" fought his first 40+ fights against fighters with a cummulative LOSING RECORD! That's pretty damn hard to do. You gotta fight a lot of 0-10 bums for that to happen. Yeah... he later became a great fighter and fought great opposition. But fact of the matter is he reached 100 wins because the first 45 or so fights were against worthless bums, and ALL of them in Mexico.
So you can't blame the guy for wanting his coddled son to follow in his carefully chosen footsteps. The chances of Junior facing a live and dangerous opponent any time soon are about as great as the chances of my winning the lottery..... and I don't even play the lottery.
;)
what you typed there is all very nice, but i hadn't reviewed the performance of the two fighters before writing the post. which is what you seem to suggest in the bold part of your text above.
i figured a fighter would want a showcase fight for his 20th, 30th and 40th fights. it just so happens that martinez chose to fight fighters with poor or losing records, whereas chavez jr. chose to face guys with solid winning records...
i addressed the issue of martinez having 6 more fights than chavez jr... if you were to ignore martinez last 6 fights you'd see he hadn't faced any credible opposition to that point either.
also, i certainly didn't have a say in "handpicking" the fighters that the two champions chose to fight. altho, i'm flattered that you'd attribute me such "pull". these are simple observations that suggest a trend.
One slight problem with your statement above (which I've bolded in red). Kermit Cintron was 7 fights ago.... and Margarito was way back in 2000. And frankly, either would've tore Junior a new asshole.
And while you may be right about these "milestone fights", (which when you think about it has little significance in the grand scheme of things), nothing in your post disputes the fact that Junior has never fought a dangerous opponent. And this has been strictly by design. Baby Chavez..... following in his father's footsteps.
Following daddy's script, though, it's about time Junior starts facing opposition worthy of his bloated 40+ and "0" record. Only difference is, however, Junior is a manufactured product..... and he'll NEVER get anywhere near 100 wins. NEVER.
hey don't get all worked up about it...
you seem to have a real problem with the idea of this guy getting 100 wins.
whats it to you? relax. have a good bowel movement...
we'll see how each fighter's careers go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Worked up? You don't know me very well. Just pointing out the fact that Baby's record is a farce, is all. Nothing wrong with setting the record straight, right?
;)
but that's common knowledge...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Worked up? You don't know me very well. Just pointing out the fact that Baby's record is a farce, is all. Nothing wrong with setting the record straight, right?
;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccobut that's common knowledge...Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Worked up? You don't know me very well. Just pointing out the fact that Baby's record is a farce, is all. Nothing wrong with setting the record straight, right?
;)
Ok, so we agree.
:)
i doubt we agree...
i think martinez is massively overrated; whereas i find chavez jr to be well managed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
by well managed i mean he's made the most money with the least risk while upholding a brand name started by his dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
that's the third element of the sweet science...the one people don't like to talk about: money.
the art of hitting and not being hit; while making as much money as possible.
where do you rank Martinez p4p?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
who should he face to merit his worth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoby well managed i mean he's made the most money with the least risk while upholding a brand name started by his dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
that's the third element of the sweet science...the one people don't like to talk about: money.
the art of hitting and not being hit; while making as much money as possible.
I can now see why we will always disagree.
I see boxing as a sport. A sport I've loved for a very long time. Long enough to have seen the best fighting the best. Long enough to have seen warriors in the ring, wanting to fight the best opponents available... and not giving a rat's ass about "brand names" (give me a frigging break), maintaining fake undefeated records, or wanting to bloat their bullshit records with bums.
You, on the other hand, admire "well managed" fighters with all the attributes you very well mentioned in your post. Nothing wrong with that...... to each his own.
We'll never agree.
:cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatratwhere do you rank Martinez p4p?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
who should he face to merit his worth?
martinez doesn't belong in the top 10 p4p. he's not that good. knocking out b level domestic fighters, does make you p4p credible.
who should he face to merit his worth? that's the problem, he will lose when he faces someone who's a legitimate contender. he just happens to be in a weak division...but that doesn't prove his superiority. it just means he's top dog on top of a pile of shit.
i don't admire chavez jr. i'm just suggesting that you're naive if you think boxing is just about a fighter's glory. its about money and you're a fool if you believe otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoby well managed i mean he's made the most money with the least risk while upholding a brand name started by his dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
that's the third element of the sweet science...the one people don't like to talk about: money.
the art of hitting and not being hit; while making as much money as possible.
I can now see why we will always disagree.
I see boxing as a sport. A sport I've loved for a very long time. Long enough to have seen the best fighting the best. Long enough to have seen warriors in the ring, wanting to fight the best opponents available... and not giving a rat's ass about "brand names" (give me a frigging break), maintaining fake undefeated records, or wanting to bloat their bullshit records with bums.
You, on the other hand, admire "well managed" fighters with all the attributes you very well mentioned in your post. Nothing wrong with that...... to each his own.
We'll never agree.
:cool:
as for people fighting bums... martinez fought a guy with a 1-7-2 record for his 40th fight! his 42nd fight was against 3-35-2! his 43rd fight was 14-4! his 44th fight: 14-10! his 45th 16-6! who has the padded record full of bums? martinez fought 10 times between 2005 and 2007... only 3 of those fighters had winning records.
besides, i'm suprised you're trying to take the moral high road here titofan... your namesake is a cheater who was caught red handed.
you didn't answer the question. do you have a p4p list? if so, who would you rank above him p4p?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatratwhere do you rank Martinez p4p?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
who should he face to merit his worth?
martinez doesn't belong in the top 10 p4p. he's not that good. knocking out b level domestic fighters, does make you p4p credible.
who should he face to merit his worth? that's the problem, he will lose when he faces someone who's a legitimate contender. he just happens to be in a weak division...but that doesn't prove his superiority. it just means he's top dog on top of a pile of shit.
also, just to be clear, he's top dog in two divisions, junior middleweight and middleweight, they may be both be equally crappy in your book.
What about Joe Louis chasing Max Schemelling to get his revenge when Joe was champion or Joe Frasier trying to get the fight on with Muhammad Ali in 1971.
Terry Norris trying to get a pay day against Oscar Dela Hoya.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoi don't admire chavez jr. i'm just suggesting that you're naive if you think boxing is just about a fighter's glory. its about money and you're a fool if you believe otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoby well managed i mean he's made the most money with the least risk while upholding a brand name started by his dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
that's the third element of the sweet science...the one people don't like to talk about: money.
the art of hitting and not being hit; while making as much money as possible.
I can now see why we will always disagree.
I see boxing as a sport. A sport I've loved for a very long time. Long enough to have seen the best fighting the best. Long enough to have seen warriors in the ring, wanting to fight the best opponents available... and not giving a rat's ass about "brand names" (give me a frigging break), maintaining fake undefeated records, or wanting to bloat their bullshit records with bums.
You, on the other hand, admire "well managed" fighters with all the attributes you very well mentioned in your post. Nothing wrong with that...... to each his own.
We'll never agree.
:cool:
as for people fighting bums... martinez fought a guy with a 1-7-2 record for his 40th fight! his 42nd fight was against 3-35-2! his 43rd fight was 14-4! his 44th fight: 14-10! his 45th 16-6! who has the padded record full of bums? martinez fought 10 times between 2005 and 2007... only 3 of those fighters had winning records.
besides, i'm suprised you're trying to take the moral high road here titofan... your namesake is a cheater who was caught red handed.
I think I've had fruitless arguments with you before, and I'm surprised I've allowed myself to argue with you again.
First of all, I never said fighting is just about "glory" or any bullshit like that. Of course it's about money. But how you handle your career says a lot about you as a fighter and how fans will perceive you. And you're a bigger fucking fool than I'll ever be if you think it's only about the money. You're one of these jaded "fans" that take everything to the $$$ and nothing else. If that's what drives you to like boxing, you're not really a fan.
And your trash talk about Trinidad.... I'm not going to get into that argument with you 'cause you're not worth my time. Suffice it to say that Trinidad was "never caught redhanded". He was made to re-wrap his hands differently from what he always did, and was never considered against the rules. Otherwise it would have been pointed out a long time ago. It was basically a mindgame ploy from the Hopkins corner, to play with Tito's mind. It has long been established that there was nothing wrong with the way he had his hands wrapped.
But all of this is wasted on your feeble mind, so go on with your mindsets, and go on worshipping and jerking off about coddled little fighters like Baby Chavez. And go on caring only about what the fighters make $$$. You sound like a real knowledgeable boxing fan to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoi don't admire chavez jr. i'm just suggesting that you're naive if you think boxing is just about a fighter's glory. its about money and you're a fool if you believe otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoby well managed i mean he's made the most money with the least risk while upholding a brand name started by his dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
that's the third element of the sweet science...the one people don't like to talk about: money.
the art of hitting and not being hit; while making as much money as possible.
I can now see why we will always disagree.
I see boxing as a sport. A sport I've loved for a very long time. Long enough to have seen the best fighting the best. Long enough to have seen warriors in the ring, wanting to fight the best opponents available... and not giving a rat's ass about "brand names" (give me a frigging break), maintaining fake undefeated records, or wanting to bloat their bullshit records with bums.
You, on the other hand, admire "well managed" fighters with all the attributes you very well mentioned in your post. Nothing wrong with that...... to each his own.
We'll never agree.
:cool:
as for people fighting bums... martinez fought a guy with a 1-7-2 record for his 40th fight! his 42nd fight was against 3-35-2! his 43rd fight was 14-4! his 44th fight: 14-10! his 45th 16-6! who has the padded record full of bums? martinez fought 10 times between 2005 and 2007... only 3 of those fighters had winning records.
besides, i'm suprised you're trying to take the moral high road here titofan... your namesake is a cheater who was caught red handed.
I think I've had fruitless arguments with you before, and I'm surprised I've allowed myself to argue with you again.
First of all, I never said fighting is just about "glory" or any bullshit like that. Of course it's about money. But how you handle your career says a lot about you as a fighter and how fans will perceive you. And you're a bigger fucking fool than I'll ever be if you think it's only about the money. You're one of these jaded "fans" that take everything to the $$$ and nothing else. If that's what drives you to like boxing, you're not really a fan.
And your trash talk about Trinidad.... I'm not going to get into that argument with you 'cause you're not worth my time. Suffice it to say that Trinidad was "never caught redhanded". He was made to re-wrap his hands differently from what he always did, and was never considered against the rules. Otherwise it would have been pointed out a long time ago. It was basically a mindgame ploy from the Hopkins corner, to play with Tito's mind. It has long been established that there was nothing wrong with the way he had his hands wrapped.
But all of this is wasted on your feeble mind, so go on with your mindsets, and go on worshipping and jerking off about coddled little fighters like Baby Chavez. And go on caring only about what the fighters make $$$. You sound like a real knowledgeable boxing fan to me.
i completely agree with you, if by fruitless arguments you mean you've never been able to hold your ground with me in a debate.
they always seem to end with you calling me names and stomping off to your room like a child. i'm used to it by now...its all in the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoi don't admire chavez jr. i'm just suggesting that you're naive if you think boxing is just about a fighter's glory. its about money and you're a fool if you believe otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoby well managed i mean he's made the most money with the least risk while upholding a brand name started by his dad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Oh ok.... so we disagree.
I don't care to defend Martinez. He needs a couple of career-defining fights to establish his legacy, if there's going to be any.
As for Baby Chavez, if by "well managed" you mean protected from any fights that might endanger his precious little "0" in the loss column, to the point of ducking credible challengers. Then yeah..... the coddled little baby is well managed.
;)
that's the third element of the sweet science...the one people don't like to talk about: money.
the art of hitting and not being hit; while making as much money as possible.
I can now see why we will always disagree.
I see boxing as a sport. A sport I've loved for a very long time. Long enough to have seen the best fighting the best. Long enough to have seen warriors in the ring, wanting to fight the best opponents available... and not giving a rat's ass about "brand names" (give me a frigging break), maintaining fake undefeated records, or wanting to bloat their bullshit records with bums.
You, on the other hand, admire "well managed" fighters with all the attributes you very well mentioned in your post. Nothing wrong with that...... to each his own.
We'll never agree.
:cool:
as for people fighting bums... martinez fought a guy with a 1-7-2 record for his 40th fight! his 42nd fight was against 3-35-2! his 43rd fight was 14-4! his 44th fight: 14-10! his 45th 16-6! who has the padded record full of bums? martinez fought 10 times between 2005 and 2007... only 3 of those fighters had winning records.
besides, i'm suprised you're trying to take the moral high road here titofan... your namesake is a cheater who was caught red handed.
I think I've had fruitless arguments with you before, and I'm surprised I've allowed myself to argue with you again.
First of all, I never said fighting is just about "glory" or any bullshit like that. Of course it's about money. But how you handle your career says a lot about you as a fighter and how fans will perceive you. And you're a bigger fucking fool than I'll ever be if you think it's only about the money. You're one of these jaded "fans" that take everything to the $$$ and nothing else. If that's what drives you to like boxing, you're not really a fan.
And your trash talk about Trinidad.... I'm not going to get into that argument with you 'cause you're not worth my time. Suffice it to say that Trinidad was "never caught redhanded". He was made to re-wrap his hands differently from what he always did, and was never considered against the rules. Otherwise it would have been pointed out a long time ago. It was basically a mindgame ploy from the Hopkins corner, to play with Tito's mind. It has long been established that there was nothing wrong with the way he had his hands wrapped.
But all of this is wasted on your feeble mind, so go on with your mindsets, and go on worshipping and jerking off about coddled little fighters like Baby Chavez. And go on caring only about what the fighters make $$$. You sound like a real knowledgeable boxing fan to me.
i completely agree with you, if by fruitless arguments you mean you've never been able to hold your ground with me in a debate.
they always seem to end with you calling me names and stomping off to your room like a child. i'm used to it by now...its all in the game.
Debate? As in your spouting baseless accusations without any information to back them up? No, you're right..... I'm not too good at those. Whereas you've mastered the art pretty good. See.... debate is where two intelligent people argue back and forth over conflicting points of view. When it's one intelligent person and one asshole..... it's called talking trash.
In case you're wondering, you're the asshole.
:)
No need to thank me. I like to help all charity cases like you. It gives me a sense of purpose.
:)
You don't consider wins over Pavlik, Williams or Dzindziruk any good? Pavlik was the lineal champ. So he's already faced a legit test.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatratwhere do you rank Martinez p4p?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
who should he face to merit his worth?
martinez doesn't belong in the top 10 p4p. he's not that good. knocking out b level domestic fighters, does make you p4p credible.
who should he face to merit his worth? that's the problem, he will lose when he faces someone who's a legitimate contender. he just happens to be in a weak division...but that doesn't prove his superiority. it just means he's top dog on top of a pile of shit.
there's no denying martinez had a couple of spectacular wins (and a loss and a draw) against against a few of top level opponents a few years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyYou don't consider wins over Pavlik, Williams or Dzindziruk any good? Pavlik was the lineal champ. So he's already faced a legit test.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatratwhere do you rank Martinez p4p?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
who should he face to merit his worth?
martinez doesn't belong in the top 10 p4p. he's not that good. knocking out b level domestic fighters, does make you p4p credible.
who should he face to merit his worth? that's the problem, he will lose when he faces someone who's a legitimate contender. he just happens to be in a weak division...but that doesn't prove his superiority. it just means he's top dog on top of a pile of shit.
based on his most recent performances however, i believe he is slipping. he seems to lack focus...which hinders speed... which lessens power. i think his age is catching up with him. a person's athleticism only carries them so far in boxing. i don't believe he has the skill set to carry him when he no longer has his speed advantage. this loss of focus may also have to do with being a media darling...he's like a starlet now. everyone says he's so great... i think he's losing his drive.
we'll see how he fares in the future if and when he faces top level opposition again. because in his last two fights he performed what i feel to be poorly against some basic b level fighters. which i feel lessens his credibility in the P4P rankings.
Oh yeah... Sergio is slipping. Now is the time to pit him against Chavez Jr. I say let's get this match made as soon as possible. A victory over the fading Martinez will elevate Chavez's status and put a major scalp on his belt. That way he can get the doubters off his back.
:-X
Slipping? And he's still knocking these guys out!
His last 7 opponents have a combined record of 230-8
Macklin arguably defeated Sturm! Dzinziruk & Barker were both undefeated.
Its not like he's fighting guys Mayorga & Margarito:p