The truth and facts about The career of Muhammad Ali

This is an analysis which goes opponent by opponent over the lesser known facts in the professional career of the self called "The Greatest" :

Tunney Hunsaker , 1st opponent since the beginning of professional career :
Olympic champion Ali jabbed his way to a six round shutout in his professional debut against small town police chief Tunney Hunsaker, whose eyes were nearly swollen shut by the end of this bout. Although Hunsaker was never inducted into the Pro Boxing Hall of Fame, he was later inducted into the Law Enforcement Hall of Fame.

Tony Esperti , 3rd opponent since the beginning of professional career :
Esperti was on his feet and seemingly not too hurt when referee Mike Kaplan stopped it because Esperti "was beginning to bust up around the eyes." (Miami News)

Jimmy Robinson , 4th opponent since the beginning of professional career :
Robinson was a last minute substitute for Willie Gulatt, who failed to appear.


Sonny Banks , 1962 :
quote from boxrec :
"~ Clay was knocked down in the 1st round, Banks was knocked down in the 2nd. ~"

Billy Daniels , 1962 :
Daniels got cut in the second round which eventually stopped the fight.

Archie Moore , 1962 :
Archie Wright was 46 years old by the time they fought , it's less relevant than James Toney stopping Holyfield come 2003 , Lewis KOing Tyson come 2002 or better , Tyson's stoppage losses to Kevin McBride & Danny Williams . This is how credible "The Greatest"'s wins over The "Old Mongoose" is . Clay did not do what Charles , Marchegiano and Patterson could not do before him .

Doug Jones , 1963 :
I watched this fight at least 3 times , the first time was on T.V. , and I thought to myself , who is winning the fight , is this the Muhammad Ali everyone regards as the best heavyweight (sometimes fighter) of all time ?
Jones had Ali hurt early in the fight , and chased him from the beginning until the last bell , Ali never hurt Jones as much .

Henry Cooper , 1963 & 1966 :
1) Angelo Dundee , Ali's (then Clay's) trainer cut his glove vs cooper in their first fight in order to buy Ali recovery time after Cooper knocked him down .
2) Cooper's chin was proven as "below granite" , prior and since their first fight , yet it was not why Ali is listed as the winner against him .
3) Yet ali went down and received smelling salts
4) after dundee cut his glove and ali got his smelling salts and glove replaced - Ali won due 2 cuts , against a proven bleeder
5) Is there anything else I need to know or did not mention about the Cooper fights ?
possibly .
At 1966 the story was :
A bad cut over Cooper's left eye forced stoppage.

Sonny Liston , 1964 & 1965 :
Liston's true age is one of the enigmas surrounding these fights .
In their first fight Ali cut Liston like he did with most of his opponents , and fled away from danger like he almost always did .
A dive is sometimes mentioned as one of the explanations to the outcome of their second fight .

Floyd Patterson , 1965 & 1972 :
Floyd had a crippled back in their first fight and was 37 years old in the second .

George Chuvalo , 1966 & 1972 :
Ali was hospitalized after their first fight and peed blood .

Ernie Terrell , 1967 :
Ali thumbed Terrell , but failed to stop him nonetheless .

Jerry Quarry , 1970 & 1972 :
Ali won twice due to cuts over another undersized proven cutter/bleeder .

Ken Norton , 1973 (* 2) , 1976 :
Some say Norton deserved the verdicts all 3 times .


George Foreman , 1974 :
I will post a thread dedicated for this fight only in d future
4d moment being , enjoy and learn from this good article :
Conspiracy Theory: Was The Rumble in the Jungle Fixed? | Ringside Report

Jimmy Young , 1976 :
I once read that : " Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons "

Earnie Shavers , 1977 :
Yet another disputed verdict by the judges

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In my opinion , I believe that immediate rematches with Jones , Cooper , Chuvalo , Terrell , Foreman , Young , Shavers and a 4th match with Norton were much more needed than fighting the likes of Brian London , Karl Mildenberger , Jean Pierre Coopman , Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangelista .
Yet he found the time to fight Joe Bugner twice , Alvin Lewis , old and worn Zora Folley and old and literally shot Cleveland Williams , etc .

////
There is more to be told about Ali's style of fouling , which some insist to consider as boxing .
Things like holding and hitting behind the head .

Factoid : did you know that Ali received testosterone injections ? like in steroids . But you only see people people call Toney a roider .
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U can dismiss this as suspicion / conspiracy theory but whenever a man cuts & swells so many men so often and enough 2 stop them that man is a suspect 4 loading his gloves .
Loading might also b d reason 2 Y Ali's glove was cut vs Henry Cooper in their 1st fight , but i suspect it was Angelo Mirena ("Dundee") in order 2 buy him time .
D full uncut unedited version of Cooper #1 is mysteriously lost and unavailable . What u c in youtube is d edited and cut version in which u don't c d duration of d extended break between rds which Mirena caused by cutting Ali's glove at some stage .
In regards 2 it , i believe that this was d reason 2y Ali told him in Manilla in 1975 2 "cut d glove" . Ali never wanted 2 quit in a fight , he just wanted 2 cheat 2 buy him recovery time like in Cooper #1 .
After Ali was announced as d victor in Manilla after Frazier could not come out of his corner due 2 swelling around his eyes (and being blind in 1 of them anyway) Ali collapsed and was rendered unconscious without even being punched again . He knew Y he wanted 2 cheat , what Mirena ("Dundee") helped him at and did 4 him his whole career .

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This is your "The Greatest"'s story .
//
Enjoy .

So what you're saying is that he beat everybody, but everybody had an excuse or a story?

:rolleyes:

Of the 61 fights that Clay/Ali fought 29 wouldn't be allowed nowadays as heavyweight because one or both opponents were below 200 lbs at the time of the bout. In other words they would run as cruiser fights (or below) and Klitschko wouldn't be allowed to stage them.

Of the remaining 32 fights Ali lost 4.

Of the remaining 28 fights Ali fought 10 x against opponents LIGHTER than Eddie Chambers (Wladimir Klitschko's lightest opponent), thus today's fans would shout "they should move down to cruiserweight" and "it's proof of how the division sucks" or what a mismatch it is.

Of the remaining 18 fights 2 wouldn't be allowed for medical reasons: Joe Frazier was blind on his left eye and Cleveland Williams was badly gunshot a few months prior! Another proof of the "dire state of the division"

Of the remaining 16 fights Ali couldn't KO his opponents in 10 fights (within 12 rounds) thus they would be "proof of how featherfisty Wlad is with a KO'ratio of 38%" and that "Marciano would KO this bum Wlad in 1 round"

Of the remaining 6 fights 1 was a bum: Charley Powell (25-11) which would be another proof for the "worst era in heavyweight boxing"

Of the remaining 5 fights 2 were against guys coming off a loss (Ron Lyle, Alvin Lewis) and fans would accuse Wlad of "cherry-picking".

Of the remaining 3 fights 2 were against a cruiser-bum beater (Sonny Liston) and fans would speculate about how the mob or Wladimir's radical Muslim friends have illegally influenced the outcome, since both endings (shoulder injury, phantom punch) were highly suspicious. Fans would complain that Sonny Liston didn't come to fight since he chickened out as soon as he saw fit.

The remaining 1 fight was against an opponent who gassed in the heat and sultriness of the rain season in the rain forest (George Foreman) and fans would shout "Lame, nowadays heavies cannot go 15 rounds anymore like Joe Louis".

hahahahahaha so no you're saying that Ali was a farce yet you go on to try and boast Ramirez as an ATG hahaha the kid needs to get his head checked, and yes I have seen all of the aforementioned fights, have Ali's career set, Muhammad isn't just the "self proclaimed" the only two fighters who get mentioned constantly when debating the greatest HW of all time it's between Ali and Louis, why? cause they faced everyone and always defied the odds, Ali brought the psychological game to another level, plenty of other fighters since have tried to emulate it, most recently Mayweather

Yeah... Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era and a 60-70s heavyweight is obviously smaller than a 2010 one? Point? ???

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Yeah... Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era and a 60-70s heavyweight is obviously smaller than a 2010 one? Point? ???

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i know lol, shit HW's were a good 10 lbs lighter in Marciano's time than Ali's

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era, Point? ???

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That was my point.

It wasn't really a dig, more a factual analysis with a sarcastic twist. Im an ali fan but unlike many casual fans i have a true sense of perspective on the man.

Other titbit's:

-Leon spinks was 6-0 as a pro when he fought ali for the title! Imagine if that happened now!!

-Cleveland Williams had been inactive the entire year of 1965 while recovering from gunshot wounds he suffered at the hands of a police officer arising out of a traffic stop. Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result. Can u imagine that now?????????

-Frazier was blind in one eye his entire career too, he would not pass the medical today!!

-Listons true birthdate is unknown, most think he was late 30's at least when he fought ali!

-Fighting a 47 year old archie moore at 20 yrs old was just ridiculous! Sorry but come on....

On the upside though he still is a legend and was an exceptional talent and inspiration.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

So what you're saying is that he beat everybody, but everybody had an excuse or a story?

:rolleyes:

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I edited my opening post of d thread since then .
I hoped d conclusions will b obvious , but since many ppl unfamiliar enough with d sport or just plain stupid and shallow minded , i decided 2b nice , pedagogically correct and deduced d conclusions 4 u .
Now u can read more about d connection between all of these stories and excuses .
There is a reason and cause 4 everything . 1 does not cut & swell so many so often just in case .
Remember Margachito vs Cotto ? remember Cotto's face later ?
Remember Billy Collins Jr.'s face after his fight with Luis Resto ?
still don't get it ?
i once saw some1 accusing Marchegiano at loading his gloves . Don't know if it's true . But I don't rule it out , and neither do d pics of Ezzard Charles' face after their 1st fight .
Everything must b a coincidence , doesn't it ?

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

hahahahahaha so no you're saying that Ali was a farce yet you go on to try and boast Ramirez as an ATG hahaha the kid needs to get his head checked, and yes I have seen all of the aforementioned fights, have Ali's career set, Muhammad isn't just the "self proclaimed" the only two fighters who get mentioned constantly when debating the greatest HW of all time it's between Ali and Louis, why? cause they faced everyone and always defied the odds, Ali brought the psychological game to another level, plenty of other fighters since have tried to emulate it, most recently Mayweather

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What a low level of reply . It's just u , isn't it ? repeating what u were told since u were a child .
Never applying thought , never trying 2 find d common cause / reason 4 things . Just posting shit like u always do .
Which odds exactly did Ali or Louis overcome ?
Liston took a dive against Ali in both of their fights , their 1st was such a scandalous quit that it was hard 2 sell d 2nd 2d public . Their 2nd yet even worse .
Ali , Mirena and Don King cheated huge time vs Foreman in Zaire in 1974 . U can read about it in d article i posted a link 2 in d 1st post of d thread .
I will post another thread in d future about "D Rumble In D Jungle" in Zaire in 1974 .

Both Ali and Louis enjoyed size advantage over d vast majority of their opponents .
But this thread is not about Jose Louis Barrow nor about Jose Luis Ramirez , so leave them out because i will not get dragged by u in2 a complete gutter level argument like u did in d other thread .

He is on a Windup.;D. You can talk to a Man with a Wooden Leg, not a Man with a Wooden Head.;D

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

So what you're saying is that he beat everybody, but everybody had an excuse or a story?

:rolleyes:

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I edited my opening post of d thread since then .
I hoped d conclusions will b obvious , but since many ppl unfamiliar enough with d sport or just plain stupid and shallow minded , i decided 2b nice , pedagogically correct and deduced d conclusions 4 u .
Now u can read more about d connection between all of these stories and excuses .
There is a reason and cause 4 everything . 1 does not cut & swell so many so often just in case .
Remember Margachito vs Cotto ? remember Cotto's face later ?
Remember Billy Collins Jr.'s face after his fight with Luis Resto ?
still don't get it ?
i once saw some1 accusing Marchegiano at loading his gloves . Don't know if it's true . But I don't rule it out , and neither do d pics of Ezzard Charles' face after their 1st fight .
Everything must b a coincidence , doesn't it ?

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

hahahahahaha so no you're saying that Ali was a farce yet you go on to try and boast Ramirez as an ATG hahaha the kid needs to get his head checked, and yes I have seen all of the aforementioned fights, have Ali's career set, Muhammad isn't just the "self proclaimed" the only two fighters who get mentioned constantly when debating the greatest HW of all time it's between Ali and Louis, why? cause they faced everyone and always defied the odds, Ali brought the psychological game to another level, plenty of other fighters since have tried to emulate it, most recently Mayweather

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What a low level of reply . It's just u , isn't it ? repeating what u were told since u were a child .
Never applying thought , never trying 2 find d common cause / reason 4 things . Just posting shit like u always do .
Which odds exactly did Ali or Louis overcome ?
Liston took a dive against Ali in both of their fights , their 1st was such a scandalous quit that it was hard 2 sell d 2nd 2d public . Their 2nd yet even worse .
Ali , Mirena and Don King cheated huge time vs Foreman in Zaire in 1974 . U can read about it in d article i posted a link 2 in d 1st post of d thread .
I will post another thread in d future about "D Rumble In D Jungle" in Zaire in 1974 .

Both Ali and Louis enjoyed size advantage over d vast majority of their opponents .
But this thread is not about Jose Louis Barrow nor about Jose Luis Ramirez , so leave them out because i will not get dragged by u in2 a complete gutter level argument like u did in d other thread .

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lol yea cause you completely ignore the mere fact that it was Liston who had the mob connections, and was the one who tried to allegedly cheat in the first fight, Ali was the underdog going into the fight, you ignore the FACT that Ali once again was the underdog going in against the younger, much larger George Foreman going into their bout, you ignore that Ali was out for what? 3 yrs due to evading the draft, and that Louis gave up most of his prime due to serving in the military, yet both went on not only to face the best but beat the vast majority, see you make up your theories and your little conspiracies and ignore REAL FACTS, you try to discredit GREAT fighter's accomplishments putting up fake weak excuses yet you try to build up fighters that were a little bit above mediocre at a world stage like Ramirez, like I said in another thread you ramble on about fake stats yet fail to see true greatness cause you have zero knowledge in the art that is BOXING, probably have never stepped into a boxing ring nor have any grasp on the fundamentals of the sport, you're clueless bud, and that's why you're considered as a joke on here

Ali lost to Spinks who had had only 6 fights

Ali must have been crap. Fact

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

Ali lost to Spinks who had had only 6 fights

Ali must have been crap. Fact

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yea that's his logic, fully ignoring the fact that Leon was an Olympic gold medalist, younger, and Ali was unmotivated, on the slide and already beginning to show signs of Parkinson's, and given all those factors still beat Spinks in the rematch

I think Ali needs to be looked at as a boxer which is oddly enough the last thing people look at. To many Ali is "The Greatest" why? Because he talked himself up and billed himself as "The Greatest" certainly he was a great heavyweight, but don't get the blinders on. Sure Ali lost time to protesting the Vietnam War, but Joe Louis served his country & lost years of his prime as well, he also defended his title better as well. Those are just a few of the reasons why Joe Louis is actually The Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, Ali is still up there as is Marciano.

Thing is, everyone has tough fights, but it seems to me a lot of people rate Ali based on his cult of personality status rather than what he did in the ring and anyone who says something against that will be berated for their insolence.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I think Ali needs to be looked at as a boxer which is oddly enough the last thing people look at. To many Ali is "The Greatest" why? Because he talked himself up and billed himself as "The Greatest" certainly he was a great heavyweight, but don't get the blinders on. Sure Ali lost time to protesting the Vietnam War, but Joe Louis served his country & lost years of his prime as well, he also defended his title better as well. Those are just a few of the reasons why Joe Louis is actually The Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, Ali is still up there as is Marciano.

Thing is, everyone has tough fights, but it seems to me a lot of people rate Ali based on his cult of personality status rather than what he did in the ring and anyone who says something against that will be berated for their insolence.

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see you at least point out certain valid points, but you don't try to discredit every single accomplishment Ali has on his record, that's why I stated that when it comes to greatest HW it's basically between Louis and Ali, IMO Marciano doesn't even come close, Ali's resume is awesome, but Louis dominated like no other, so you could make a valid claim for either guy

You like picking apart boxers careers don't you, Frankenfrank? I guess you could do this to every great fighter that has ever been and gone. Same as your post about the fab 4..Must be quite hard to enjoy boxing if you're constantly looking to discredit every fighters wins/losses/fights?

Although, if you are making any more of these posts, you wouldn't mind doing a break down of Joe Calzaghe would you? ;D good lad!

(I'm joking btw JC fanclub..) :lickish:

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

see you at least point out certain valid points, but you don't try to discredit every single accomplishment Ali has on his record, that's why I stated that when it comes to greatest HW it's basically between Louis and Ali, IMO Marciano doesn't even come close, Ali's resume is awesome, but Louis dominated like no other, so you could make a valid claim for either guy

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No I don't try and discredit everything he did, I'm just a boxing fan and yes Ali had some very tough fights vs some guys who weren't very good. Billy Daniels fought Ali VERY hard! If not for the cut who know what happens. That is part of my line of thinking when putting Rocky Marciano up along side Louis & Ali because the guy never lost. Over 49 fights he always came out the victor, I'm certain he had nights where he wasn't as excited to fight as others, sometimes you've got to feel like he didn't have his 'A-game', sometimes you've got to feel a fighter was 100% ready for Rocky and really amped up to fight him, but every single one of those guys lost to him, it's a really amazing feat.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Heavyweights can only be rated relevant to their era, Point? ???

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That was my point.

It wasn't really a dig, more a factual analysis with a sarcastic twist. Im an ali fan but unlike many casual fans i have a true sense of perspective on the man.

Other titbit's:

-Leon spinks was 6-0 as a pro when he fought ali for the title! Imagine if that happened now!!

-Cleveland Williams had been inactive the entire year of 1965 while recovering from gunshot wounds he suffered at the hands of a police officer arising out of a traffic stop. Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result. Can u imagine that now?????????

-Frazier was blind in one eye his entire career too, he would not pass the medical today!!

-Listons true birthdate is unknown, most think he was late 30's at least when he fought ali!

-Fighting a 47 year old archie moore at 20 yrs old was just ridiculous! Sorry but come on....

On the upside though he still is a legend and was an exceptional talent and inspiration.

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Philosopher your points are interesting but I think Benitez who was blind in one eye was licensed to fight in 1990’s. Holmes came into the fight with Holyfield in his contact lenses. Basically it could still happen.

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

Ali lost to Spinks who had had only 6 fights

Ali must have been crap. Fact

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And Ali lost to Berbick who was flattened by Tyson so makes him greater than Ali.

FrankenFrank you are a complete tool, how can you on one hand criticise Ali’s opponents and blame Ali for it, he only fought what was in front of him which so happens to be 2 (Frazier and Foreman) if not 3 (Liston) of the greatest heavyweights ever. Why do you believe the conspiracy that Foreman was cheated in Zaire. It is you being selective with the truth to suit your own interest and stop blaming others for not agreeing with you.

Frankenfart you a d d d d d d d d d d d dumb man. What you know about boxing,
you could put on the back of a stamp.

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Originally Posted by Master

FrankenFrank you are a complete tool, how can you on one hand criticise Ali’s opponents and blame Ali for it, he only fought what was in front of him which so happens to be 2 (Frazier and Foreman) if not 3 (Liston) of the greatest heavyweights ever. Why do you believe the conspiracy that Foreman was cheated in Zaire. It is you being selective with the truth to suit your own interest and stop blaming others for not agreeing with you.

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....Liston is not a great heavyweight

lots of replies by lots of idiots do not take away from d truth and do not turn d truth in2 lie . Will not get dragged 2 their gutter level of argument , but d opening post showcases d truth .
No1 tried 2 argue against it so far .
No1 disputed any 1 of d facts in it .
In El Kabong's post , he even mentioned a fight i was not aware about , Billy Daniels .
There is more 2b told , like d Billy Daniels fight , and probably additional fights as well .
I will not post my top 10 or 20 heavyweights in this thread , at least not yet , and will not get dragged easily in2 arguing about them in this thread which its subject is Ali's career but i will state this :
Muhammad Ali , Larry Holmes , Joe Louis , Jack Dempsey , Gene Tunney and Rocco Markegiano r all vastly overrated . A man who drew d color line does not deserve recognition as a champion . Regardless of how many titles or weight classes were or were not available during his era .
El Kabong's 1st post in this thread is nearly correct , except of 1 thing , he called Ali a great heavyweight , which he was not .
Because any1 who argues against it , especially in this thread where facts r already typed and available 4 every1 2 read , ignores my 1st post . Any1 who has any argument against my 1st post show me what u argue against . That was not what d gutter inhabitants (excluding El Kabong whom is not completely correct either) from d 1st page did .

Dude. And I thought I wasted alot of time over analyzing shit.

Missing sc's right about now

Roids were not banned till the 80s.

I thought sugar ray was the greatest

It is true that Ali is one of the (i won't say most but) freely overrated boxers ever.

I adore him but have to concede...

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Dude. And I thought I wasted alot of time over analyzing shit.

Missing sc's right about now

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i do not understand what u meant

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Originally Posted by chris6878

Roids were not banned till the 80s.

I thought sugar ray was the greatest

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IDK whether he used Roids or just testosterone injections which is what i typed , and he probably wasn't d only 1 . I read that steroids were available as PEDs in sports since d 1940s or 1950s .

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

It is true that Ali is one of the (i won't say most but) freely overrated boxers ever.

I adore him but have to concede...

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I adore Corrie Sanders but i haven't listed him in my top 30 p4p nor in my top 30 heavyweights of all times yet .
Corrie Sanders was a rather clean fighter and everything ppl wished and hoped young Cautios Play was , immense handspeed , mobile , agile , effective at it , but did not get as many lucky breaks by a criminal trainer .
Has any1 seen me call him d greatest , let alone 1 of d 20 greatest ?
I love watching him fight , he was exceptional , but he had his flaws and his resume insufficient 4 it .


But what do u adore Cautious Play 4 ?
could it b it is due 2 his cautious play just in case ?

Well, it's getting a bit silly now isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Master

FrankenFrank you are a complete tool, how can you on one hand criticise Ali’s opponents and blame Ali for it, he only fought what was in front of him which so happens to be 2 (Frazier and Foreman) if not 3 (Liston) of the greatest heavyweights ever. Why do you believe the conspiracy that Foreman was cheated in Zaire. It is you being selective with the truth to suit your own interest and stop blaming others for not agreeing with you.

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Mole grips, the swiss army knife, a pc even are complete tools. While you can probably open a can of beans or flatten a nail with Frankenfranks head, constructing a logical argument or posting coherently without resorting to replacing "the" with "d" and other retarded textspeak is clearly beyond him.

He is at most a spanner, and a rusty one at that. I call shenanigans

yup fully agree that sc's need to make a comeback, at least I have a side project, need to write "BOXING: For Morons" and dedicate the book to Frankfurter, maybe that way his ass will actually learn something, but at least he has taught us something, that even though someone can watch a bunch of fights, they can still be completely oblivious and clueless to what the fuck is going on in what they're watching, :-\

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Dude. And I thought I wasted alot of time over analyzing shit.

Missing sc's right about now

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i do not understand what u meant

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Originally Posted by chris6878

Roids were not banned till the 80s.

I thought sugar ray was the greatest

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IDK whether he used Roids or just testosterone injections which is what i typed , and he probably wasn't d only 1 . I read that steroids were available as PEDs in sports since d 1940s or 1950s .

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

It is true that Ali is one of the (i won't say most but) freely overrated boxers ever.

I adore him but have to concede...

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I adore Corrie Sanders but i haven't listed him in my top 30 p4p nor in my top 30 heavyweights of all times yet .
Corrie Sanders was a rather clean fighter and everything ppl wished and hoped young Cautios Play was , immense handspeed , mobile , agile , effective at it , but did not get as many lucky breaks by a criminal trainer .
Has any1 seen me call him d greatest , let alone 1 of d 20 greatest ?
I love watching him fight , he was exceptional , but he had his flaws and his resume insufficient 4 it .


But what do u adore Cautious Play 4 ?
could it b it is due 2 his cautious play just in case ?

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Well to answer the question, he was a massive overachiever who upset the odds many times and fought long into a period where his athletic abilities had long wained and was forced to survive on wits, instinct and a rock solid chin.

Not only that but he was a massively prominent figure throughout 2 decades.

Only Joe Louis, Evander Holyfield and maybe now the Klitschkos had that kind of prominence.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I think Ali needs to be looked at as a boxer which is oddly enough the last thing people look at. To many Ali is "The Greatest" why? Because he talked himself up and billed himself as "The Greatest" certainly he was a great heavyweight, but don't get the blinders on. Sure Ali lost time to protesting the Vietnam War, but Joe Louis served his country & lost years of his prime as well, he also defended his title better as well. Those are just a few of the reasons why Joe Louis is actually The Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, Ali is still up there as is Marciano.

Thing is, everyone has tough fights, but it seems to me a lot of people rate Ali based on his cult of personality status rather than what he did in the ring and anyone who says something against that will be berated for their insolence.

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thıs ıs a great post. I thınk Alı should also be looked upon as a boxer only. Forget hıs black muslım hıstory and antı-vıetnam stuff---Jımı Hendrıx can claım the same stats-----does that make Hendrıx a ranked boxer then? Many people were agaınst vıewnam and raısed questıons about blacks havıng whıte names, etc. Lets just look at Alı as a boxer---OK:

perhaps the fastest of all tıme for a heavy no doubt about ıt
but and thıs ıs a BIG BUT----HE SURE GOT CLOCKED THOUSANDS OF TIMES BY FRAZIER FOR EXAMPLE IN THEIR 1ST FIGHT--- CONSIDERING HE WAS THE FASTEST IN THE WORLD! I thought those left hooks from rounds 9 through 15 decapıtated Ali personally and he was never the same agaın. Frazıer ended Ali's career ın March of 1971. FACT. After that Alı relıed pretty much onbeıng a human punchıng bag and rope a dopıng etc. flat footed and gettıng hıt so fuckıng much by Norton and Shavers and Spınks ıts no wonder he's ın the state he's ın now. Great chin though. :)

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

yup fully agree that sc's need to make a comeback, at least I have a side project, need to write "BOXING: For Morons" and dedicate the book to Frankfurter, maybe that way his ass will actually learn something, but at least he has taught us something, that even though someone can watch a bunch of fights, they can still be completely oblivious and clueless to what the fuck is going on in what they're watching, :-\

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this is n exact description of d vast majority of those who replied in my threads so far , including yourself .
and i watched more than just "a bunch" , i watched hundreds , which i doubt most of u did .

BTW did / do u ever use d "ETM" name ?
because while i wouldn't consider d ETM i stumbled upon a good poster , he is still levels above u .

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

yup fully agree that sc's need to make a comeback, at least I have a side project, need to write "BOXING: For Morons" and dedicate the book to Frankfurter, maybe that way his ass will actually learn something, but at least he has taught us something, that even though someone can watch a bunch of fights, they can still be completely oblivious and clueless to what the fuck is going on in what they're watching, :-\

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this is n exact description of d vast majority of those who replied in my threads so far , including yourself .
and i watched more than just "a bunch" , i watched hundreds , which i doubt most of u did .

BTW did / do u ever use d "ETM" name ?
because while i wouldn't consider d ETM i stumbled upon a good poster , he is still levels above u .

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most of us aren't New to the sport, plenty of us have actually picked up the sport at one point of the other, I've been into boxing since I was 5, been watching it religiously since I was about 10, you do the math and tell me that "hundreds of fights" is really anything =/, again you can see them all you want but your posts basically prove that even though you've watched them, you've learned nothing, nor do you know what ur talking about

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

yup fully agree that sc's need to make a comeback, at least I have a side project, need to write "BOXING: For Morons" and dedicate the book to Frankfurter, maybe that way his ass will actually learn something, but at least he has taught us something, that even though someone can watch a bunch of fights, they can still be completely oblivious and clueless to what the fuck is going on in what they're watching, :-\

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this is n exact description of d vast majority of those who replied in my threads so far , including yourself .
and i watched more than just "a bunch" , i watched hundreds , which i doubt most of u did .

BTW did / do u ever use d "ETM" name ?
because while i wouldn't consider d ETM i stumbled upon a good poster , he is still levels above u .

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most of us aren't New to the sport, plenty of us have actually picked up the sport at one point of the other, I've been into boxing since I was 5, been watching it religiously since I was about 10, you do the math and tell me that "hundreds of fights" is really anything =/, again you can see them all you want but your posts basically prove that even though you've watched them, you've learned nothing, nor do you know what ur talking about

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and u show , that even if u follow d sport 4 a long time u 4get and misinterpret what u saw and also didn't bother 2 know d facts and r obviously a very ignorant as in ignoring person .

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

yup fully agree that sc's need to make a comeback, at least I have a side project, need to write "BOXING: For Morons" and dedicate the book to Frankfurter, maybe that way his ass will actually learn something, but at least he has taught us something, that even though someone can watch a bunch of fights, they can still be completely oblivious and clueless to what the fuck is going on in what they're watching, :-\

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this is n exact description of d vast majority of those who replied in my threads so far , including yourself .
and i watched more than just "a bunch" , i watched hundreds , which i doubt most of u did .

BTW did / do u ever use d "ETM" name ?
because while i wouldn't consider d ETM i stumbled upon a good poster , he is still levels above u .

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most of us aren't New to the sport, plenty of us have actually picked up the sport at one point of the other, I've been into boxing since I was 5, been watching it religiously since I was about 10, you do the math and tell me that "hundreds of fights" is really anything =/, again you can see them all you want but your posts basically prove that even though you've watched them, you've learned nothing, nor do you know what ur talking about

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and u show , that even if u follow d sport 4 a long time u 4get and misinterpret what u saw and also didn't bother 2 know d facts and r obviously a very ignorant as in ignoring person .

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funny how everyone else is "ignorant" yet we all disagree with your dumbass lol, you can't even fucking spell so you don't have the right to call anyone fucking ignorant hahaha , and what you post are opinions not facts, just cause you put it down doesn't make it a fact, sorry buddy, same way you accused Trinidad and Gomez of being cheaters when neither was found to be a dirty fighter

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

funny how everyone else is "ignorant" yet we all disagree with your dumbass lol, you can't even fucking spell so you don't have the right to call anyone fucking ignorant hahaha , and what you post are opinions not facts, just cause you put it down doesn't make it a fact, sorry buddy, same way you accused Trinidad and Gomez of being cheaters when neither was found to be a dirty fighter

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more lies , more cookie cutting , same person , different thread .
u r ignorant and i don't care how many disagree with me .
seems like u post 4d sake of posting , maintaining disagreement , having d last word , lying and a few more .

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

funny how everyone else is "ignorant" yet we all disagree with your dumbass lol, you can't even fucking spell so you don't have the right to call anyone fucking ignorant hahaha , and what you post are opinions not facts, just cause you put it down doesn't make it a fact, sorry buddy, same way you accused Trinidad and Gomez of being cheaters when neither was found to be a dirty fighter

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more lies , more cookie cutting , same person , different thread .
u r ignorant and i don't care how many disagree with me .
seems like u post 4d sake of posting , maintaining disagreement , having d last word , lying and a few more .

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funny thing is your own damn post applies to you :-X

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

funny how everyone else is "ignorant" yet we all disagree with your dumbass lol, you can't even fucking spell so you don't have the right to call anyone fucking ignorant hahaha , and what you post are opinions not facts, just cause you put it down doesn't make it a fact, sorry buddy, same way you accused Trinidad and Gomez of being cheaters when neither was found to be a dirty fighter

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more lies , more cookie cutting , same person , different thread .
u r ignorant and i don't care how many disagree with me .
seems like u post 4d sake of posting , maintaining disagreement , having d last word , lying and a few more .

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Stop the madness please, Frankenfert,you should ask for permission from your
parents before you come on forums.

Ali, that great American icon, was never my American icon. I didn't care for him from the beginning. He was a mean spirited man who disrespected other fighters, talked about them like they were trash, especially black fighters! Yeah, in my opinion he was a first class prick but I never, ever doubted his ability in the ring! If the Foreman fight doesn't convince you he was the best of his era, talking to you is a waste of time.