Ali-Holmes, How Did They Allow This Fight to Happen...

just watched ESPN's Muhammad & Larry documentary and well we all already know how the fight went down, but seriously how did they let this fight even get made? Ali was 38 yrs old coming off a 2 year retirement and if you watch the documentary you can see that the signs of Parkinson's disease, he tries to play it off by moving his hands around while giving interviews or tries to control it in one way or another, he looks a bit out of it the whole lead up to the fight and his speech is already a bit slurred, simply put fighters need to be protected from themselves and to this day they do nothing to stop legends from being destroyed

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

just watched ESPN's Muhammad & Larry documentary and well we all already know how the fight went down, but seriously how did they let this fight even get made? Ali was 38 yrs old coming off a 2 year retirement and if you watch the documentary you can see that the signs of Parkinson's disease, he tries to play it off by moving his hands around while giving interviews or tries to control it in one way or another, he looks a bit out of it the whole lead up to the fight and his speech is already a bit slurred, simply put fighters need to be protected from themselves and to this day they do nothing to stop legends from being destroyed

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Well to be honest Muhammad Ali didn't do himself any favours, he constantly mocked Holmes and basically forced the fight to happen on his own accord. He's lucky Holmes went easy on him otherwise it could of been a real tragedy, but the real tragedy is Ali losing to Trevor Berbick.

Losing to Holmes even though he was years past his prime is nothing to be ashamed of, but losing to Berbick who still hand his hands full with that version of Ali just frigging annoys me.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

just watched ESPN's Muhammad & Larry documentary and well we all already know how the fight went down, but seriously how did they let this fight even get made? Ali was 38 yrs old coming off a 2 year retirement and if you watch the documentary you can see that the signs of Parkinson's disease, he tries to play it off by moving his hands around while giving interviews or tries to control it in one way or another, he looks a bit out of it the whole lead up to the fight and his speech is already a bit slurred, simply put fighters need to be protected from themselves and to this day they do nothing to stop legends from being destroyed

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Well to be honest Muhammad Ali didn't do himself any favours, he constantly mocked Holmes and basically forced the fight to happen on his own accord. He's lucky Holmes went easy on him otherwise it could of been a real tragedy, but the real tragedy is Ali losing to Trevor Berbick.

Losing to Holmes even though he was years past his prime is nothing to be ashamed of, but losing to Berbick who still hand his hands full with that version of Ali just frigging annoys me.

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oh I get that, Ali's handlers even said that Ali took the fight just for the money, but he had to go through tests in the middle of his training camp where they concluded that his speech and motor skills were declining, that he couldn't touch his nose with his finger without struggling and that his short term memory was deteriorating as well, yet with all that being said, they still gave him the license to fight, it's absurd

Money. Everyone wanted a piece of Ali's money making potential. Networks,promoters,opponents even those who should have had his best interests at heart used him to publicise their own agenda and garner money and attention for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Money. Everyone wanted a piece of Ali's money making potential. Networks,promoters,opponents even those who should have had his best interests at heart used him to publicise their own agenda and garner money and attention for themselves.

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Very true and very sad.He was just a good payday to lots of hangers on
who would butter his ego up.There is no way Ali should have been in a ring
with a fighter like Holmes,he was just a ghost of a fighter in there.

Holmes v tyson, how did they allow this fight to happen?

Ali fought numerous fighters that were approaching 40 or in there 40's!

WHY SHOULD FIGHTERS NOT GET AN OPPORTUNITY VS A LATE 30'S ALI?

Because Holmes still had all his faculties... seriously dude watch the documentary, they put Ali on the wrong medication mistaking his Parkinson's for something else, it made him barely able to move around the ring. Ali should never have been aloud to fight they should have pulled him out on medical grounds.

Saddo mentioned it in another post, I started one ages ago about it. I think Ali wore the mustache because subconsciously he wanted to disassociate himself from the fight and say this is not the real Ali. It was sick and sad.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Holmes v tyson, how did they allow this fight to happen?

Ali fought numerous fighters that were approaching 40 or in there 40's!

WHY SHOULD FIGHTERS NOT GET AN OPPORTUNITY VS A LATE 30'S ALI?

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The Holmes who fought Tyson and the Ali who fought Holmes were nothing alike as far as deterioating health is concerned.

Holmes went on to school Ray Mercer and have a very close fight with Holyfield for the world title, YEARS after he fought Tyson.

Ali went on to lose to Berbick, retire and suffer from parkinsons.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Money. Everyone wanted a piece of Ali's money making potential. Networks,promoters,opponents even those who should have had his best interests at heart used him to publicise their own agenda and garner money and attention for themselves.

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He had a huge entourage as well.

Ali had a great charisma as well, try telling him no he would convince you otherwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Bu5...eature=related

how did this fight ever happen???!!!

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Money. Everyone wanted a piece of Ali's money making potential. Networks,promoters,opponents even those who should have had his best interests at heart used him to publicise their own agenda and garner money and attention for themselves.

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So true. Still Holmes should have told King to F-off. He was Ali's chief sparring partner for several years and watched him deteriorating.

Then again King at the time was boxing and Holmes was essentially given the choice of walking the plank or fighting Ali.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

So true. Still Holmes should have told King to F-off. He was Ali's chief sparring partner for several years and watched him deteriorating.

Then again King at the time was boxing and Holmes was essentially given the choice of walking the plank or fighting Ali.

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I think Holmes viewed this fight as his path toward the adulation he deserved and wanted so badly.
In boxing there is a term "the sparring partner mentality." Holmes never had this, I belive Larry would have viewed even a prime Ali as his sparring partner and a step up toward his own pedestal.

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Bu5Ki4DHo&feature=related

how did this fight ever happen???!!!

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Heard about this fight, Ali's legs were very sore after it. Complete farce to allow this to happen as well.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Bu5Ki4DHo&feature=related

how did this fight ever happen???!!!

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Heard about this fight, Ali's legs were very sore after it. Complete farce to allow this to happen as well.

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If I remember rightly he had to fly shortly after and his doctor who had already prescribed dodgy advice and medicines to him was very worried about DVT and blood clots

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

just watched ESPN's Muhammad & Larry documentary and well we all already know how the fight went down, but seriously how did they let this fight even get made? Ali was 38 yrs old coming off a 2 year retirement and if you watch the documentary you can see that the signs of Parkinson's disease, he tries to play it off by moving his hands around while giving interviews or tries to control it in one way or another, he looks a bit out of it the whole lead up to the fight and his speech is already a bit slurred, simply put fighters need to be protected from themselves and to this day they do nothing to stop legends from being destroyed

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Why did the so called intelligent Ali , call holmes out ? or was he just as dumb as most boxers ? or did he need the money ?

How did they allow Ali to fight anybody after the Thriller In Manila? I have no doubt Ali's condition today would be far better if he had retired in October 1975.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

just watched ESPN's Muhammad & Larry documentary and well we all already know how the fight went down, but seriously how did they let this fight even get made? Ali was 38 yrs old coming off a 2 year retirement and if you watch the documentary you can see that the signs of Parkinson's disease, he tries to play it off by moving his hands around while giving interviews or tries to control it in one way or another, he looks a bit out of it the whole lead up to the fight and his speech is already a bit slurred, simply put fighters need to be protected from themselves and to this day they do nothing to stop legends from being destroyed

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Why did the so called intelligent Ali , call holmes out ? or was he just as dumb as most boxers ? or did he need the money ?

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Ali "calling" Holmes out was all a promotional ploy, King, Holmes promoter came to Muhammad with the fight, Ali was offered 8 Million to fight Holmes and took the money out of greed, but back to my main point, they put him through rigorous tests and his results were way less then satisfactory, yet they still licensed him, Ali should have been protected from himself, same as many other fighters, yet no one ever does anything about it, as long as a legend with a name isn't full blind, can utter a few recognizable words, and walk around he'll get a license in order to make people a profit, it needs to be stopped it's a bigger problem then corrupt judges, and yet nothing is ever done about it

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The WBC and Don King

Many in the boxing community have accused the WBC of bending its rules to suit powerful promoter Don King. As journalist Jack Newfield says, "...[WBC President Jose Sulaiman] became more King's junior partner than his independent regulator." Another journalist, Peter Heller, echoes that comment: "Sulaiman...became little more than an errand boy for Don King." Heller also quotes British promoter Mickey Duff as saying, "My complaint is that José Sulaimán is not happy his friend Don King is the biggest promoter in boxing. Sulaiman will only be happy when Don King is the only promoter in boxing."

The actions of the WBC give some credence to this charge. A partial list:

When Leon Spinks won the WBA and WBC Heavyweight championships from Muhammad Ali in 1978, the WBC stripped Leon Spinks of his title. José Sulaimán said the WBC did so because Spinks was signed for a rematch with Ali instead of fighting a Don King fighter, Ken Norton. Norton then defended the WBC title against another Don King fighter, Larry Holmes, who won the belt.
In 1983, WBC Super Featherweight champion Bobby Chacon was signed to fight the WBC's mandatory challenger for his title, Cornelius Boza Edwards. Promoter Don King, however, wanted his fighter, Héctor Camacho, to fight for the title. Even though WBC rules said the mandatory challenger should receive a shot at the title, the WBC withdrew its sanction from the fight and then stripped Chacon for refusing to fight Camacho.
Under WBC rules, a fighter is supposed to defend his title against a mandatory challenger at least once a year. For fighters controlled by Don King, this rule is often ignored. Alexis Argüello, and Carlos Zarate, for instance, were allowed to ignore their obligations to their mandatory contenders while WBC champions.
While WBC Super Featherweight champion, Julio César Chávez wanted to fight top contender Roger Mayweather for a promoter other than Don King. The WBC withheld its sanction of the fight until Don King became promoter.
When Mike Tyson lost to James "Buster" Douglas during a WBC and WBA Heavyweight championship defense, Don King convinced the WBC (along with the WBA) to withhold recognition of Douglas as heavyweight champion. King claimed that Tyson had actually won the fight due to knocking down Douglas and the referee giving Douglas a "long count." Referee Octavio Meyran, in a sworn affidavit, claims that King threatened to have the WBC withhold payment of Meyran's hotel bill if Meyran did not support King's protest. Because of intense public pressure, both the WBA and WBC backed down and recognized Douglas as champion.
In 1992, the WBC threatened to strip Evander Holyfield of his title for defending it against Riddick Bowe instead of Razor Ruddock. Holyfield obtained a court order to stop the organization. In a taped deposition for the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, Holyfield stated that the WBC wanted him to defend his championship against Ruddock because Ruddock was managed by Don King.[5]
During the 1990s, the WBC did not allow its champions to engage in unification bouts with WBO champions. However, in 1993, the Don King promoted super-middleweight showdown between WBC champion Nigel Benn and WBO champion Chris Eubank was recognized as a title unification fight by the WBC. Ironically, both men fought to a draw and each retained their respective titles.
When Mike Tyson was released from prison in 1995, the WBC installed him as their #1 contender for their heavyweight championship. Tyson had not fought in four years, but was promoted by Don King.
In 2000, King-promoted Julio César Chávez was the mandatory challenger for Kostya Tszyu's WBC super lightweight title. Chávez was the mandatory challenger though he had not fought at super lightweight for two years, had recently lost to journeyman boxer Willie Wise, and had not beaten a top contender since losing his first fight to Oscar De La Hoya in 1996.
In 2005, the WBC stripped Javier Castillejo of his super welterweight title for fighting Fernando Vargas instead of Don King-promoted Ricardo Mayorga. Mayorga somehow qualified for a shot at the super welterweight title despite the fact that he had never fought at that weight limit and had lost two of his last three fights.

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The 2 pillars of the community.

Because it's ALI we should feel outrage that a young gun dared to fight him towards his latter years?? Ali was the the Ring & WBA World Heavyweight champion and 37 years old (a year older than wlad is now!)

-Patterson was 37 when ali faced him!!

-Liston was probably 40.

-Chuvalo was nearly 40.

-Foster was in his mid 30's.

etc

You want to talk distasteful? then lets talk about a 47 yr old Jerry Quarry (9 years of inactivie) vs Ron Cramer! A very distastful "Event" that should never of been allowed.

Age is not the issue, it was the amount of wear and tear PHILOSOPHER. Sonny went 15-1 after the defeat to Ali, so he was far from finished.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Because it's ALI we should feel outrage that a young gun dared to fight him towards his latter years?? Ali was the the Ring & WBA World Heavyweight champion and 37 years old (a year older than wlad is now!)

-Patterson was 37 when ali faced him!!

-Liston was probably 40.

-Chuvalo was nearly 40.

-Foster was in his mid 30's.

etc

You want to talk distasteful? then lets talk about a 47 yr old Jerry Quarry (9 years of inactivie) vs Ron Cramer! A very distastful "Event" that should never of been allowed.

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Ali was retired at 37, and actually read the facts and his age is the least of the issues at hand, Ali technically wasn't even medically cleared and yet was still given a license, that's the problem, just cause you have a vendetta against Muhammad doesn't take away that he most likely suffered permanent damage from this fight and his condition is worse than what it would have been had someone stepped up and said, NO we can't allow you to take this fight, I said that Ali clearly isn't the only one who's been put into this situation and that officials need to do their jobs and stop this shit from happening

Ali should have ______, Ali should have ______.......it's all hindsight Evander Holyfield still wants to fight and he's still getting licesed after several and I mean SEVERAL events where he should have called it a career: the fights vs Bowe, the Moorer fight where he thought he was having a heart attack, the Toney fight where he injued his shoulders, etc.

The only redeeming thing about the Holyfield situation is that both Klitschko brothers have stated that they would never fight Evander for any amount of money out of respect for him and worries about his safety.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Ali should have ______, Ali should have ______.......it's all hindsight Evander Holyfield still wants to fight and he's still getting licesed after several and I mean SEVERAL events where he should have called it a career: the fights vs Bowe, the Moorer fight where he thought he was having a heart attack, the Toney fight where he injued his shoulders, etc.

The only redeeming thing about the Holyfield situation is that both Klitschko brothers have stated that they would never fight Evander for any amount of money out of respect for him and worries about his safety.

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that only backs up what I'm saying, Holyfield shouldn't be licensed at all, should have been denied a license a long time ago

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Originally Posted by Master

Age is not the issue, it was the amount of wear and tear PHILOSOPHER. Sonny went 15-1 after the defeat to Ali, so he was far from finished.

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Everything about sonny liston is pretty shady! His birth, his mob ties, his death....

His record has to be taken with an air of scepticism. So do the ali fight's too. He quit on his stool in the first with the scores evenly matched and the 2nd fight was laughable!

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Ali was retired at 37, and actually read the facts and his age is the least of the issues at hand, Ali technically wasn't even medically cleared and yet was still given a license, that's the problem, just cause you have a vendetta against Muhammad doesn't take away that he most likely suffered permanent damage from this fight and his condition is worse than what it would have been had someone stepped up and said, NO we can't allow you to take this fight, I said that Ali clearly isn't the only one who's been put into this situation and that officials need to do their jobs and stop this shit from happening

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I think age has a lot to do with it, that and the fact that his defensive arsenal in his 30's mainly consisted of laying on the ropes and turning himself into a human punchbag! You want to talk fighters fighting with 'wear and tear' or 'medical issues'?? Try ali's supposed career best performance, the virtuoso performance ppl always allude to to highlight peak ali's powers, cleveland williams:

Williams had been inactive the entire year of 1965 while recovering from gunshot wound. Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result. 10 months later he fought ali!! Ali was beating up on near cripples!

Oh ya and let's not forget ali vs a 47 year old 190lb archie moore who at that point in his life was acting in hollywod movies playing slaves!!

Distasteful is a 47 yr old Jerry Quarry (9 years of inactivie) vs Ron Cramer! Not linear champ ali fighting holmes for the WBA belt...

Distasteful is calling joe frazier an ugly gorilla or 'all white men devils'....Distasteful is parading around in a silly pantomine outfit whilst his countrymen are dying in vietnam! Distasteful is puppeteering for elijah muhammed! Ali v holmes was not distasteful it was a changing of the guard fight, nothing more. Ali fought men who had no business fighting him....or indeed even boxing!!

alı had takken a specıal weıght loss drug and magıcally got down to 216 for the fıght---ıt fooled everybody by severely blockıng nutrıent absorptıon as well as dehydratıng hım. he looked so great ıt fooled hım too ınto thınkııng he couold do ıt agaınst holmes. thıs weıght loss drug had alot to do wıth hıs beıng confıdent he could wın thıs fıght.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

that only backs up what I'm saying, Holyfield shouldn't be licensed at all, should have been denied a license a long time ago

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Agreed, Riddick Bowe was stammering and slurring through sentences after the Hoyfield matches as was Evander and boxing just doesn't need another punch drunk poster boy, especially consdering what ESPN is attempting to do with football.....which is ban it.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

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Originally Posted by Master

Age is not the issue, it was the amount of wear and tear PHILOSOPHER. Sonny went 15-1 after the defeat to Ali, so he was far from finished.

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Everything about sonny liston is pretty shady! His birth, his mob ties, his death....

His record has to be taken with an air of scepticism. So do the ali fight's too. He quit on his stool in the first with the scores evenly matched and the 2nd fight was laughable!

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The fights with Ali are what they are, Ali was better.

The winning streak that Liston put together was impressive and genuine.

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The fights with Ali are what they are, Ali was better.

The winning streak that Liston put together was impressive and genuine

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Was it?

Willis Earls finished with a career record of 12-15

Roger Rischer 29-13

Sonny Moore 24-38

etc etc LOL.

Anyway, im sorry if i sound off about ali but i tend to avoid the hyperbole and stick to facts.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

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The fights with Ali are what they are, Ali was better.

The winning streak that Liston put together was impressive and genuine

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Was it?

Willis Earls finished with a career record of 12-15

Roger Rischer 29-13

Sonny Moore 24-38

etc etc LOL.

Anyway, im sorry if i sound off about ali but i tend to avoid the hyperbole and stick to facts.

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Liston beat some decent fighters and was working his way back to a title shot.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

Was it?

Willis Earls finished with a career record of 12-15

Roger Rischer 29-13

Sonny Moore 24-38

etc etc LOL.

Anyway, im sorry if i sound off about ali but i tend to avoid the hyperbole and stick to facts.

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The facts would suggest he was not only a superstar, but the most dominant champion in the most competitive era of heavyweight boxing?