https://twitter.com/Tyson_Fury/statu...93070341656576
I don't know much about him to be honest... is he really this stupid and disrespectful?
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https://twitter.com/Tyson_Fury/statu...93070341656576
I don't know much about him to be honest... is he really this stupid and disrespectful?
Even in a Boxing fight, I'd take Cain inside a round. Fury is a fucking moron.
It's obviously just a publicity stunt, but I don't think Velasquez or Dos Santos are guys who deserve a tremendous amount of respect to be honest. They are a couple of bums as long as they aren't taking you down, if they were to keep the fight standing even Tyson Fury would make easy work of them.
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Originally Posted by bzkfn
He is indeed a moron, but you must be kidding if you actually think Cain could beat anyone remotely decent in a boxing match.
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Wow I can't believe anyone could say that. Clearly you believe fighting is just about punching and nothing more? How can you not respect 2 guys who have had to learn more than one martial art in order to make it to the top of a combat sport?
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Originally Posted by bzkfnQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Wow I can't believe anyone could say that. Clearly you believe fighting is just about punching and nothing more? How can you not respect 2 guys who have had to learn more than one martial art in order to make it to the top of a combat sport?
I just don't think either man is a special athlete. I'd much rather watch someone who was incredibly good at one disicpline than a cockfight. Aesthetically, I find most ground fighting to be repulsive regardless of how difficult or skillfull it may be, I'll admit that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcy1DTr5KDIQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Science disagrees with that
But getting past the MMA vs Boxing thing... why would you call out a guy from a different sport like that? And maybe in England "tit" is a term of endearment... but seems rather rude for here for a guy you don't even know.
To be calling MMA cockfighting is pretty ignorant. I also think it is ridiculous to suggest they're not quality athletes. MMA is a tough sport, so to get to the top requires a high level of skill. Fury wouldn't last very long in a cage. I'll admit I'm exaggerating with the length, but I wouldn't be stunned if Cain stopped him in a Boxing fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
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Originally Posted by Beanflickerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcy1DTr5KDIQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Science disagrees with that
Haha, kind of a neat video I guess but taking raw data from simple tests like that isn't exactly the end all measure of athletecism. All that proves is that he's in great shape, and very powerful. I'm sure most NFL players would put up huge numbers in a setting like that as well. It's the intangibles and finesse, individual skillsets which really seperate elite guys from those who are merely physical beasts. I'd bet all kinds of phenomenally talented athletes wouldn't score very highly at all on tests like that, but so what.
I didn't call MMA in general a cockfight, although it certainly can be. I was thinking specifically of the fight last weeked between Cain and Junior. That was shit to watch in large part, Dos Santos was completely out of gas unable to fight back and just getting hit while turtling on the ground for much of the fight, not my cup of tea. And to suggest Cain could beat anyone who only boxes for a living at a high level is purely hypocritical given that you accuse me of being ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnTo be calling MMA cockfighting is pretty ignorant. I also think it is ridiculous to suggest they're not quality athletes. MMA is a tough sport, so to get to the top requires a high level of skill. Fury wouldn't last very long in a cage. I'll admit I'm exaggerating with the length, but I wouldn't be stunned if Cain stopped him in a Boxing fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
No doubt, I'm not saying he's a Bo Jackson or a Michael Phelps, but the guy is an incredible athletic specimen and a cardio machine. The fight with Junior was a bad indication because I think there were a lot of nerves involved and the grappling game is INCREDIBLY taxing no matter how conditioned you are. You take a supremely conditioned boxer like Mayweather and have him grapple with guys and he'll gas out, it's just a different world.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
But I do agree that saying Cain would beat Tyson in boxing is going a little far. Cain had no striking training until he was out of college in 2005 or 06, so if Tyson Fury was to lose to him in a boxing match I think that would be VERY embarrassing.
I have yet to see Fury box at a high level, which is pretty much why I have the opinion I have. For now, he's all smoke and mirrors.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingI didn't call MMA in general a cockfight, although it certainly can be. I was thinking specifically of the fight last weeked between Cain and Junior. That was shit to watch in large part, Dos Santos was completely out of gas unable to fight back and just getting hit while turtling on the ground for much of the fight, not my cup of tea. And to suggest Cain could beat anyone who only boxes for a living at a high level is purely hypocritical given that you accuse me of being ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnTo be calling MMA cockfighting is pretty ignorant. I also think it is ridiculous to suggest they're not quality athletes. MMA is a tough sport, so to get to the top requires a high level of skill. Fury wouldn't last very long in a cage. I'll admit I'm exaggerating with the length, but I wouldn't be stunned if Cain stopped him in a Boxing fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
As for the Cain & Junior fight, Cain dropped him hard. If that'd been boxing, the fight would have been stopped. He didn't even recover for 3 rounds, because he was allowed to. If you'd seen Junior fight before, I think you'd be plenty more impressed.
I do think that it takes a certain amount of skill to get to the top in mma but I think it takes more skill to get anywhere in boxing.
In mma you have so many different disciplines you can fall on if one is failing. In boxing you only have punching.
I think boxing is like football where mma is like a hybrid between football and rugby. In football, you only have your feet but in the hybrid, if you arent as skilled as Matt Le Tissier, you could just pick the ball up and run through your opponent.
Right, but they are different sports. Boxing at a high level means boxing a hell of a lot better than anybody in the history of MMA ever has, that's just a no brainer. I actually did see the first fight between Cain and Junior as well, I can only imagine Santos either didn't get into proper condition for the rematch or is a complete kill or be killed fighter, haven't seen enough of him to know. Either way, the fact that they can both land the kind of bombs they did on each other within the opening minute only cements that they are not very good boxers, to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnI have yet to see Fury box at a high level, which is pretty much why I have the opinion I have. For now, he's all smoke and mirrors.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingI didn't call MMA in general a cockfight, although it certainly can be. I was thinking specifically of the fight last weeked between Cain and Junior. That was shit to watch in large part, Dos Santos was completely out of gas unable to fight back and just getting hit while turtling on the ground for much of the fight, not my cup of tea. And to suggest Cain could beat anyone who only boxes for a living at a high level is purely hypocritical given that you accuse me of being ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfnTo be calling MMA cockfighting is pretty ignorant. I also think it is ridiculous to suggest they're not quality athletes. MMA is a tough sport, so to get to the top requires a high level of skill. Fury wouldn't last very long in a cage. I'll admit I'm exaggerating with the length, but I wouldn't be stunned if Cain stopped him in a Boxing fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
As for the Cain & Junior fight, Cain dropped him hard. If that'd been boxing, the fight would have been stopped. He didn't even recover for 3 rounds, because he was allowed to. If you'd seen Junior fight before, I think you'd be plenty more impressed.
Fury had his first amateur fight in 2005 (I think). He fought Price in 2006 but only had around 10 fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNo doubt, I'm not saying he's a Bo Jackson or a Michael Phelps, but the guy is an incredible athletic specimen and a cardio machine. The fight with Junior was a bad indication because I think there were a lot of nerves involved and the grappling game is INCREDIBLY taxing no matter how conditioned you are. You take a supremely conditioned boxer like Mayweather and have him grapple with guys and he'll gas out, it's just a different world.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
But I do agree that saying Cain would beat Tyson in boxing is going a little far. Cain had no striking training until he was out of college in 2005 or 06, so if Tyson Fury was to lose to him in a boxing match I think that would be VERY embarrassing.
Fury wants to fight Vitali this year, he will not waste his time with anything else.
Stupid of furry since its two diffrent worlds and he'd probably just get taken down and submitted, just like cain would lose to any decent boxers. I'm pretty sure dos santos said he'd knock out klitscko in a boxing fight, which is just as stupid.
Yeah, I couldn't help but remembering that comment by Junior when I was watching him fight. That is clearly far more ludicrous than Tyson Fury simply issuing a challenge like this for publicity. Klitschko would absolutely torture either of those guys standing up, it would be inhumane.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Ah, don't know much about Fury like I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Even still, Cain trains striking for MMA, which is kickboxing and strikes to help close distance and set up takedowns. Fury has been training nothing but boxing for boxing. So I think it would be very far fetched to believe Cain would have anything other than a puncher's chance against Fury.
That was true for MMA years ago, but the sport has evolved now to the point where you have to be REALLY, REALLY good at everything. If you have a weakness, someone's going to exploit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
For clarification, this is what I was implying. Cain has a pretty decent punch power, and I don't think Fury has the best chin. So like I said, if they boxed, I genuinely wouldn't be stunned if Cain stopped him. More my low opinion of Fury than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerAh, don't know much about Fury like I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Even still, Cain trains striking for MMA, which is kickboxing and strikes to help close distance and set up takedowns. Fury has been training nothing but boxing for boxing. So I think it would be very far fetched to believe Cain would have anything other than a puncher's chance against Fury.
I really don't know enough about Fury to make a judgement. Cain hits like a truck though, his punch was measured on Sport Science as having 2230lbs of force or around there. All it takes is one on the button.
I thought it was disrespectful of JDS to say he could KO a Klitschko, but even he wasn't hurling insults at them.
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Originally Posted by Beanflicker
It's an insult in itself to say that, moreso than Fury being the twit he is to get some attention. To suggest he would even have a prayer of getting out of the first round of a boxing match with either Klitschko is assinine. It would be like Tyson Fury saying he'd slam Cain to the ground and choke him out, no different at all in fact.
Bit different. JDS trains boxing extensively. Fury has no grappling skills whatsoever as far as I know.
So Fury is a boxer that is shit and only a contender, whereas "JDS" is an mma champ who trains boxing "extensively" so that makes an even fight, lets get it on!;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Maybe, but not much. Grappling is a far more organic thing than boxing, you can bet Fury would be able to handle most people who didn't train seriously on the ground, just on account of being huge and bullish. The skillset required is FAR easier to hone and a lot, if not most of it, boils down to genetics. Wheras JDS may train in boxing, but he's never had a pro fight, or dedicated a whole training camp to just dealing with punches. I'd imagine he's never sparred a relevant HW boxer etc. Klitschko has been doing that for his entire life and it the best big man in the world at it. It's absolutely ridiculous for Dos Santos to have said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Not denying it was rediculous for Dos Santos to say that. I think it's downright chicken-shit to call a guy out when you know full well you would never be able to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You're underestimating grappling though. I've trained grappling, not to any impressive degree, but enough to know that being huge and bullish works against you against anyone who knows what they are doing because grappling is about skill, technique and leverage, not just simply using brute strength which will tire you out in 30 seconds. Big, bullish guys are at an even bigger advantage on their back. If a big guy like Fury gets put on his back, he ain't getting back up.
I think it runs parallel to boxing in terms of skill and technique required. A guy going on "organic" grappling skills will get schooled by someone who knows what they are doing, much like someone going on "organic" punching instincts will get schooled by someone who trains and understands the sweet science.
All I'm saying is JDS has an astronomically larger boxing skillbase than Fury would have a grappling skillbase.
How would you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNot denying it was rediculous for Dos Santos to say that. I think it's downright chicken-shit to call a guy out when you know full well you would never be able to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You're underestimating grappling though. I've trained grappling, not to any impressive degree, but enough to know that being huge and bullish works against you against anyone who knows what they are doing because grappling is about skill, technique and leverage, not just simply using brute strength which will tire you out in 30 seconds. Big, bullish guys are at an even bigger advantage on their back. If a big guy like Fury gets put on his back, he ain't getting back up.
I think it runs parallel to boxing in terms of skill and technique required. A guy going on "organic" grappling skills will get schooled by someone who knows what they are doing, much like someone going on "organic" punching instincts will get schooled by someone who trains and understands the sweet science.
All I'm saying is JDS has an astronomically larger boxing skillbase than Fury would have a grappling skillbase.
Whos to say that Fury isn't a little mma weekend warrior? Watches all the mma shows and does a little training at his gym?
Ill tell you this. Most mma fighters will not train boxing with any decent boxers because they dont like to get hit, whereas grappling, you may get tied up but you wont take those sharp stinging punches. I used to box and have done freestyle karate and trained with brazilian jiu jitsu practitioners and my uncle is a trainer in tradidional jiu jitsu and none of them would ever step foot in the boxing gym and attempt to spar, whereas myself and other boxers are more than willing and enjoy stepping over and learning new things and trying other things out. Whether this is a trend everywhere I don't know but I get the feeling that most martial artists (I know boxing is a martial art and quite possibly the first ever) think f themselves as "above" boxing and for one reason or another just plain refise to even step foot in a boxing specific gym, whereas boxers are quite open to traini g alongside them? Go figure...
I didn't mean to dismiss the skill level required to be a serious wrestler etc. However, there are no organic punching instincts, that was my whole point. Grappling is very much different. If you have the right type of coordination and fast twich muscles etc its a tremendous advantage over someone who hasn't, even if they are more skilled. Boxing, or any hand to hand combat is a very finite thing which must be learned. You could be an absolute freak of nature athlete and get your ass whipped something fierce by someone who was simply more composed or accustomed to seeing punches come at them. Watch your average street fight, people absolutely panic and becoming completely unnerved. This is something you still see in a lot of UFC fights imo, with guys who are less than stellar on their feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNot denying it was rediculous for Dos Santos to say that. I think it's downright chicken-shit to call a guy out when you know full well you would never be able to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You're underestimating grappling though. I've trained grappling, not to any impressive degree, but enough to know that being huge and bullish works against you against anyone who knows what they are doing because grappling is about skill, technique and leverage, not just simply using brute strength which will tire you out in 30 seconds. Big, bullish guys are at an even bigger advantage on their back. If a big guy like Fury gets put on his back, he ain't getting back up.
I think it runs parallel to boxing in terms of skill and technique required. A guy going on "organic" grappling skills will get schooled by someone who knows what they are doing, much like someone going on "organic" punching instincts will get schooled by someone who trains and understands the sweet science.
All I'm saying is JDS has an astronomically larger boxing skillbase than Fury would have a grappling skillbase.
ha, you small stiff idiot tits
i think its quite funny
That's BS! There's only a handful of fighters in the UFC who are really really good at everything, most are just good at their original discipline and wouldn't stand a chance if entered a comp in another field they are "good" inQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat was true for MMA years ago, but the sport has evolved now to the point where you have to be REALLY, REALLY good at everything. If you have a weakness, someone's going to exploit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Love the way the UFC throw cheap shots at boxing all the time "that's higher then any boxer we've tested"Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Well said, always thought that about a lot of UFC fighters, seem scared to get hit a lot of the time and rush in just hoping for a clinch. Then if they get floored go into fetal position to cover up waiting for ref to jump inQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingI didn't mean to dismiss the skill level required to be a serious wrestler etc. However, there are no organic punching instincts, that was my whole point. Grappling is very much different. If you have the right type of coordination and fast twich muscles etc its a tremendous advantage over someone who hasn't, even if they are more skilled. Boxing, or any hand to hand combat is a very finite thing which must be learned. You could be an absolute freak of nature athlete and get your ass whipped something fierce by someone who was simply more composed or accustomed to seeing punches come at them. Watch your average street fight, people absolutely panic and becoming completely unnerved. This is something you still see in a lot of UFC fights imo, with guys who are less than stellar on their feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNot denying it was rediculous for Dos Santos to say that. I think it's downright chicken-shit to call a guy out when you know full well you would never be able to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You're underestimating grappling though. I've trained grappling, not to any impressive degree, but enough to know that being huge and bullish works against you against anyone who knows what they are doing because grappling is about skill, technique and leverage, not just simply using brute strength which will tire you out in 30 seconds. Big, bullish guys are at an even bigger advantage on their back. If a big guy like Fury gets put on his back, he ain't getting back up.
I think it runs parallel to boxing in terms of skill and technique required. A guy going on "organic" grappling skills will get schooled by someone who knows what they are doing, much like someone going on "organic" punching instincts will get schooled by someone who trains and understands the sweet science.
All I'm saying is JDS has an astronomically larger boxing skillbase than Fury would have a grappling skillbase.
Think you're wrong about MMA fighters thinking they're above boxers, they always go to boxers when they want to improve their standup. Almost always.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossHow would you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerNot denying it was rediculous for Dos Santos to say that. I think it's downright chicken-shit to call a guy out when you know full well you would never be able to fight him.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You're underestimating grappling though. I've trained grappling, not to any impressive degree, but enough to know that being huge and bullish works against you against anyone who knows what they are doing because grappling is about skill, technique and leverage, not just simply using brute strength which will tire you out in 30 seconds. Big, bullish guys are at an even bigger advantage on their back. If a big guy like Fury gets put on his back, he ain't getting back up.
I think it runs parallel to boxing in terms of skill and technique required. A guy going on "organic" grappling skills will get schooled by someone who knows what they are doing, much like someone going on "organic" punching instincts will get schooled by someone who trains and understands the sweet science.
All I'm saying is JDS has an astronomically larger boxing skillbase than Fury would have a grappling skillbase.
Whos to say that Fury isn't a little mma weekend warrior? Watches all the mma shows and does a little training at his gym?
Ill tell you this. Most mma fighters will not train boxing with any decent boxers because they dont like to get hit, whereas grappling, you may get tied up but you wont take those sharp stinging punches. I used to box and have done freestyle karate and trained with brazilian jiu jitsu practitioners and my uncle is a trainer in tradidional jiu jitsu and none of them would ever step foot in the boxing gym and attempt to spar, whereas myself and other boxers are more than willing and enjoy stepping over and learning new things and trying other things out. Whether this is a trend everywhere I don't know but I get the feeling that most martial artists (I know boxing is a martial art and quite possibly the first ever) think f themselves as "above" boxing and for one reason or another just plain refise to even step foot in a boxing specific gym, whereas boxers are quite open to traini g alongside them? Go figure...
It's pretty simple really, if it's a boxing match the boxer will have the advantage. If it's an MMA fight the the MMA fighter will have the advantage. IMO.
The only boxer I'd give a real chance to, in the heavyweights, is Wlad because of his kickboxing background, that is if it was an MMA type fight. I can see him throwing an elbow or two also.
This is very true. For example, GSP trains standup with Freddie Roach, and I heard Nick Diaz does a fair bit of sparring with Andre Ward.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Fury is a unfinished product.
But to suggest MMA fighters would walk over fury in one round is naive.
If it was so easy, MMA fighters would switch to boxing, because it is a much higher pay day if you are at the top.
I do not see anything wrong with this baiting, I for one would certainly watch and be entertained.
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Originally Posted by ross
I'll agree 100% that a lot of grapplers don't want to get hit. That's the biggest adjustment when grapplers start training MMA: getting rid of the natural reaction to flinch, turn away from a strike, and getting their bodies used to being hit. Getting hit sucks, no question.
JDS is more than a "weekend warrior" who watches a few boxing matches on TV and trains on the weekend. JDS's particular camp trains with a lot of pro's and the Brazilian olympic boxing squad, in fact there is footage on Youtube of JDS sparring with an Olympian. He is a stablemate of Anderson Silva, who of course trained extensively for a period with Freddie Roach at the Wild Card gym. Are these guys ready to go take on a Klitschko or a Sergio Martinez? No, but they're no slouches when it comes to boxing.
Just because you were open minded, doesn't mean that attitude is universal. I've posted on MMA and boxing forums for over 10 years and I've had to defend MMA to boxing fans and defend boxing to MMA fans countless times. Generally speaking, those into boxing think the grappling game is a bunch of nonsense and don't like to partake in it. There are obvious exceptions, as the UFC has featured a few ex-pro boxers who made the switch successfully, but there is a general ignorance in the boxing community to everything that isn't boxing.
Being "really good" at something doesn't mean you're the best in the world at it. That's nearly impossible. Can you think of ANY athlete who was world class at two sports? Bo Jackson and Deon Sanders are the only two I can think of (football and baseball).Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe
There have been tons of MMA fighters who have fought pro boxing with success, there are tons of MMA fighters who have gone into ADCC and other grappling tournements and dominated.
To have any success in the UFC, you have to have good standup skills, wrestling skills and submission skills, or else you don't last long.