http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roD5myufyJs
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What a condescending annoying Prick Celente is with his whiny, self obsessed rants and lap dog slurping at the feet of master Alex. Having said that he makes some prescient points. America though no doubt starting with SOME good intentions was never the bastion of Democracy that many inside and out claim it to be. It started as, and on paper, still is a Republic. It has evolved though, and became an oligarchy which morphed into a plutocracy and ended up as corporatocracy. Those with money have the power and that is written into the lauded system that the elite founding fathers created when rule of law replaced democracy. America was never a democracy and still isn't.
Celente can miss an old fabled America that never existed because he obviously feels disenfranchised by a changing country that is not the same as the imaginary one he remembers. It's called getting old and nostalgic. He can't on the one hand moan about supporting the corrupt systems and then suggest that America be restored in his image as though his "new way" which apparently is as old as the Bible will magically remove the power from the financial elite of which he is part. He is an unrelenting doom monger and the American equivalent of Russell Grant.
For most outsiders America has never seemed to be about Democracy and freedom. It wasn't during Celente's youth and it isn't now. It is about Business. The opportunities it affords are financial. Gerald and Alex are products of it and they are in it for the money. The conspiracy business is a big money spinner and they are reeling people in, like the money shills they are.
They harvest their stories from the mainstream media they pretend to despise and feed leech like off people's fear and prejudices, regurgitating 3rd hand news as though they are prophets. They present a version of independent thinking that is as shrink wrapped and mass produced as the corporate industries they pretend to rail against.
I can agree with you 50%
but fuck you about Fragae and my messgae ;)
There has never been any pretence at serious democracy, but America once provided decent standards of living for its populace and didn't try to police the world. I guess that is the kind of America Celente is nostalgic about. At one time America seemed to be moving towards some kind of progress both economically and in terms of equal rights. Housing was affordable, raising a child was affordable, education was affordable, healthcare was affordable, retiring was affordable and so on and so on. Nowadays it has all been stripped away and whereas once America was happy just stripping the independance of sovereign countries for resources, it then started to chip away at its own populace too when Wall Street simply had to have more. The middle class which expanded throughout much of the 20th century has been steadly gouged away and it is shrinking alarmingly. There is a great lecture on the decline of the America middle class by Elizabeth Warren which is available on You Tube.
I think GB is harsh on Celente who is doing nothing more than presenting the truth albeit in a bombastic manner. If there is a fault in what he is saying then it should be picked upon, but on the whole Celente is fairly consistent and I have no issues with him making a living by it as a whole lot more in the mainstream media are making a lot more money by basically misinforming the American people and creating people like Lyle. A media that gives airtime to Dick Cheney to ruminate on 'harm to national security', which constantly updates you on stock markets despite most of us living ordinary lives without any stocks and shares, which ignores 3rd party candidates et al et al is a whole lot worse than the likes of Celente saying that life was better before and things are going down the shitter. He is telling the truth and it is observable to any half awake pug.
All media is self serving to some degree or another and there is an obvious reason for that. The British Royal family is a case in point. You are told that a Royal Birth is significant and should pay attention, you are told this must be true as the media is telling you it is. To any of those half awake pugs, they can see through the manipulation and deception. Celente would simply tell it as it is and use a witty line and an expletive to say it. The mainstream media is complicit in a whole lot more than Celente is. The mainstream media has sold wars based upon lies to the public just because the politicians told them to do so.
It's easy to criticise the likes of Celente when they try to tell the truth about the systems that indoctrinate from the off. The indoctrinated are the vast bulk of people and people who shake the shackles off and tell it straight should be commended. Alex Jones annoys me somewhat, but I like Celente a lot more. He seems more intelligent and there aren't really any holes in what he is saying factually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Agree 100%
I'm a middle class American that is married with three children. We have affordable housing so much that not only did a buy a nice home in a nice neighborhood but I rent it for a profit and rent a 2500 square foot home that I live in. We buy almost no processed food but rather almost 100% organic produce and beef/pork/chicken/fish etc. Our grocery bill is completely affordable. My children go to a good school and all three have accounts we contribute to for their college education. While neither of my cars were bought new or are top of the line I own both. We are getting ready to take the rugrats on our third vacation this year. My wife works but somehow we find the time to eat dinner as a family and regularly do weekend activities. The American middle class is alive and well but no one is going to hand it to you. We made lots of sacrifices as a young couple, work very hard and still have to watch how we spend. You can have a good life here but it takes hard work, deferred gratification and not taking the all to easy victim attitude.
You guys are do'ers. That for the most part these days is where the line is drawn in the sand between the haves and have nots.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
The difference between want and get involves expending energy not taking it.
Andre that is exactly my point. If you work hard and sacrifice you can make a decent life in this country. Miles is just ignorant of what life is like here but plenty of lazy ass American's would nod their head and go on believing the reason their life sucks is someones elses fault. I'm a pretty generous guy. We give a fair amount of our time to helping others and while we don't do much in cash donations we do give a lot of clothes etc to good will. I'll make an effort to help hardworking people that have hit a rough patch but if I have no compassion for ignorant people waiting around for someone to give them the life they think they deserve.
I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.
I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
It's not up to America to provide a decent wage, it's a framework so people can provide a decent wage to themselves.
I agree that our military is over reaching and should be contracted. All said and done, I still love my country and truly believe if we start thinking more locally we can become a prosperous nation once again.
I personally have never been unemployed since I have been of legal age to work, and since I was a young child I always did work to earn my way. I find it strange that there is a culture of people that simply don't want to do anything for themselves nowadays. People that eat out for every meal, pay someone to do all the repairs on their house, pay someone to do all the repairs on their car. These are all premium things in my opinion.
Also I work for an American manufacturing company, we have been on a stable profit pattern for many years now. We actually sell parts to China, because they are unable to produce them, themselves.
Tell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Just look at the data Warren provides at the 22 to 30 minute mark. American families have 2 parents working and spend massive proportions of their income on transportation, healthcare, mortgages, taxes and childcare. I am not disputing that there is a middle class and that some are doing very well for themselves. Of course that would be the case, but in general standards of living for middle class people have declined economically over recent decades. For those in the lower end sectors such as long term manufacturing, they have been eradicated and many others will clearly be struggling.
The only way families have survived is by making sure that more women work and in turn that means children are being raised very differently to generations past too. With two parents working families have LESS money that when there were largely single earning families. Now what will you say to disagree with the data that Warren provides? Elizabeth Warren is well respected and your ancedotal 'evidence' is clearly just that. America is a very big country and nobody denies that there are rich people or people with a spare room. I have one too, but that isn't really relevant to a bigger picture.
I equate this phenomena with various things, of course the fact that we have more things as a rule of thumb has a lot to do with it. Just look around your apartment, put yourself in the place of your grandparents at your age and ask which of these things would they have? Even the lower classes have more stuff than prior generations. Here in Phoenix if someone were to live a very simple lifestyle (much akin to generations past) they could live on a minimum wage job, there would be a lot of sacrifices and extra work, but it's not unlike how people in the past lived. The more complicated our lives are the more expensive and the more we think we "need".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
The bigger picture here is that I am offering to show you first hand how Americans live in the really real world (and of course I offer a room to my guests, I'm not bragging it's the purpose of the room) I can take you to the ghettos out here, I can take you to the elite neighborhoods. I am offering you the opportunity to examine what your studies are showing first hand. I am offering to show you how amazing and resilient people can be.
In the past a single income would pay for the 5 five neccessities of home, taxes, child care, health and transport and still leave you with more than half of your income as disposable. The data Warren provides shows that those same things which most would argue they have a right to cost a lot more today and 2 breadwinners are spending 3 quarters of their income on them. That is a numerical decline.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepI equate this phenomena with various things, of course the fact that we have more things as a rule of thumb has a lot to do with it. Just look around your apartment, put yourself in the place of your grandparents at your age and ask which of these things would they have? Even the lower classes have more stuff than prior generations. Here in Phoenix if someone were to live a very simple lifestyle (much akin to generations past) they could live on a minimum wage job, there would be a lot of sacrifices and extra work, but it's not unlike how people in the past lived. The more complicated our lives are the more expensive and the more we think we "need".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
The bigger picture here is that I am offering to show you first hand how Americans live in the really real world (and of course I offer a room to my guests, I'm not bragging it's the purpose of the room) I can take you to the ghettos out here, I can take you to the elite neighborhoods. I am offering you the opportunity to examine what your studies are showing first hand. I am offering to show you how amazing and resilient people can be.
Food, clothing and so on are cheaper today, but those things are always flexible. Having a home, paying taxes, and having the means to get to work are not flexible and that flexibility has been largely taken away.
Sure, many fritter away their money on trivial things, but on the whole money is gobbled up by rents, mortgages, health, tax and children. The same has largely happened in the UK too and I think it is incredibly unfair. People are enslaved by those burdens and of course education is a more recent addition to the burden.
People don't really have a choice and it is partly propaganda to be blaming the scroungers as Lyle does or say that America has plenty of opportunities when inequality in America is at peak levels and the numbers prove that the middle class is declining. There are scroungers and there are successful people, but it is also true that those in the middle are largely falling further behind. The statistics show it and it is real.
In the post WW2 period American quality of life was improving economically up until the 1960's and it has been in decline since. You cannot tell me that the Internet and a few gadgets makes up for the loss of freedoms, less disposable income, and the massive increase in cost for the neccessities. The peak of oil production is only going to destroy the tens of millions living in the suburbs in the future too which will be an additional crushing burden.
People should be able to earn enough to give them half their income to do what they want with as a minimum (not fact, just opinion). If you fritter it away then you deserve what you get, but you cannot just increase the neccessities 76% and apply the same rules. It is unfair and I just wonder where it will end. The increases cannot carry on without increasing inequality and reducing the middle classes. The increases alone make freedom an impossibility for many people, if you are not free to earn enough to save and be independant, then a few gadgets are not going to make up for that.
sorry killersheep but there is no revival anywhere, no time, no where, in the usa. Smoke and mirrors, yes, you have plenty of that there, smoke and mirrors and shell games as I am trying to educate Kirkland Laing about----you know Kirkland, the guy who believes everything the govt accounting office and the admin tell him about employment and inflation stats, etc.
Miles, I was just trying to be polite and put the offer out there, no harm, no foul.
No, I am not trying to be rude either. It's just that the numbers are so outrageous and I think of you as a smart person, so find it odd that you don't see the decline when it seems quite clear, numerically speaking. I am only really paraphrasing Warren whose lecture is really very succinct and interesting. I always get labelled as the man who hates America (largely by Lyle) but I don't hate it. People are just people, it is the politics that I will admit a genuine dislike of. However, you are right in that I am not in the heart of it and go largely on observations from media and people like Warren. America is a huge country and I imagine many probably do much the same. It is different that way to somewhere like Britain which is so compact and easy to observe.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
I would love to come to America one day as it looks like a beautiful place and New York and San Francisco are home to my favourite films, but I often reverse my intentions to visit as I get frightened and upset by the politics. Needless to say though, if I ever did visit, I would be up for a Saddo's meetup. I think only you with Mick, and me with MarkTKO, are the only people of recent times to have met up.
You should be sure to meet up with Mick if you do visit killersheep Miles. That would be so ubbergay that a giant glittery worm hole would open up in the Universe as an army of pink stormtroopers, beautifully choreographed by Busby Berkley marched through.
I'll bookmark your video but I just don't have time right now to watch and hour long lecture. While I wouldn't call Warren ignorant about the US it should be noted that she is a politician belonging to a party that panders to low income people. It is her business to tell working class people it is someone elses fault that life is hard. W/o watching the video I can't address her issues but I'd want to see her sources and lets be honest she has a history of being dishonest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Now to answer your question, yes, when it comes to the United States I think you are pretty ignorant in the same way I'm pretty ignorant about the dynamics of Korea or the UK. Of course, I don't spend an exorbitant amount of time posting about those countries and telling their citizens what it is really like in their nation and then dismiss their responses by either saying their statements are invalid b/c of their employment or b/c they are obviously just indoctrinated by a inferior education system. In multiple postings about the US you have failed to provide supporting sources for many of your assertions and I have in turn provided sources showing that some of your statements of fact are actually not accurate. It is not really something to get bent out of shape about. You have never been here much less lived here. From what I can gather you have never really interacted with many Americans other than some randoms at your local pub. Why would you be expected to really understand the US, its people or how things work here? You have probably gotten more American interaction here than anywhere else but of course we are all a bunch of fat neocon zombies.
I don't disagree with you that higher education prices are going up exponentially but this is a problem caused by public policy that is promoted as a means to help middle and lower income families. These two videos overlap some on their ideas but Dr. Lin of American University does a good job of explaining how bad policy has more to do with high tuition than anything else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GTa_swC-OE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1ivyhCHpGw
The healthcare issue here is more complicated than the tuition issue but it has similar themes. Here is a pretty good video and article about the actual problem and necessary solutions
What's Really Wrong with the Healthcare Industry - Vijay Boyapati - Mises Daily
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E29LD98ruo
Now you saidSo lets tackle the stagnation of wages hereQuote:
It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6FmhXQ32Wo
and before you tell me that costs are far outpacing even rising wages...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8SLIt7xZxU
just in case your next point was to say "yeah but the poor are getting even poorer..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDhcqua3_W8
now you are going to tell me "Ok VC but the US has no economic mobility"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbueX92CKPk
Your last point about the large number of Americans using some type of social safety net....well yeah we are coming out of one of the worst economic downturns in our nation's history. I'm not sure why you'd expect something different.
You saidFor starters after college I was a teacher like you making around 65% of what I do now. Then I ran a bar making more than I do now. I chose to be in the military b/c I wanted to do something more meaningful with my life and I wanted a challenge and I took a pay cut to do it. I don't look at my deployments as a sacrifice but rather just part of the job. The sacrifices my wife and I made were more in the lifestyle we lived. For starters once we had children she didn't work which was a significant pay cut. It was important for us that she be at home with at least our first two until they went to school. We went w/o a lot of luxuries we had become accustomed to and in some areas still do. These are the sacrifices I meant. Middle class America needs to do less whining and simply plan better, save more and work harder. The ability to live a good life and improve oneself is still there but it takes these things called discipline, personal accountability and drive.Quote:
Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.
Tangentially, you have made a lot of posts about two working parents causing the deterioration of the homelife. My wife has worked the last 4 years which is most of my youngest child's life and at least half or more of my other two. My children are well behaved, do well at school and respectful. Two working parents can make a family work just fine. It just requires a little more time and effort on their part.
Disturbing Statistics on the Decline of America's Middle Class - DailyFinance
An article showing how much wealth is funneled up and just how many 'stable' factory jobs have been shipped overseas. If that isn't a decimation of an entire sector of the population, then I struggle to imagine anything convincing anybody.
The bottom 40% control less than 1% of the nations wealth.
The middle 20% control 6%.
And the elite 1% control over 40%.
It must be because most of the country are lazy bums who get everything handed to them. It couldn't be that wealth has been sucked up by the super rich at the expensive of everyone else. That would be the commonsense way to approach it.
As I've stated before we don't live in insular nations anymore. We have a global economy and labor market. If you are looking back to the 1950s or 60s wistfully then you are just wasting your time. The world has changed. Middle class people need to realize they have to compete in this global economy and adjust with it. I addressed most of these points already. Blaming successful people is just class warfare.
Why should people have adjusted? When you are in your 50's and have worked in that factory all your life, surely that means something. It also means a lot when neccessities were getting more expensive so you couldn't save enough and then they say YOU are too expensive, we are going to China! It also means a lot more when the jobs have largely been shipped to a country that pretty much provides slave labour and is supposedly a communist menace. It's a heist. I suppose 'communism' and sharia law go out of the window when the elite want to pillage their own economies in order to please the 1% of the populace with a serious claim on stocks and shares. Globalisation is the biggest con as all it has meant is that corporations have moved on the hunt for cheap labour and the only people who truly advance are the shareholders in those corporations which is the American elite, and now the Chinese elite.
More stats... NEW PAPYRUS: The Rapid Decline of the American Middle Class
I don't think anybody truly imagines life as good as generations past, but what has taken place is a systematic assault upon the vast majority of the population. The business elites and Wall Street have commited a vast money grab in the name of globalisation which basically means swarming like locusts to pick up cheap labour in places with few labour laws and even less of a pretence at being democratic.
People should adjust b/c the world is not static and they have to or hazard getting passed by. Much of that article is either showing how many middle class people do a piss poor job of planning and saving or more class warfare. Middle class families and the poor aren't' doing bad b/c other people are doing well. There is no finite amount of wealth where if the rich have X percent it means the rest are screwed. I know you dismiss my life as just an anecdotal outlier but our middle class would do well to be educated on how people like me build a good life instead of demonizing people that have been very successful. All that being said, do you have some solution to the issues you have brought up?
The world is not static, so in that sense changes can be implemented with enough drive and pressure put on the government. Accepting what is happening is only going to see further deterioration, so people need to take to the streets and revolt. They need to demand an end to military spending, excessive lobbying etc and to demand a more progressive tax system and for American politicians to represent American people over corporations and the elite. Health care needs to be cheaper, military needs to be cheaper, the super rich should give back considering they have got rich largely on the back of selling jobs to the cheapest bidder. That effective factory should not be closed down because of WalMart, but instead Walmart should be held to account for being un-American. I am in favour of the government being involved to help American people keep their jobs and if a job is lost to give them new skills.
What has taken place is so blatant and obvious and the agenda so clear. They have attempted to shell America. When there has been a heist so big and where Obama will do as he pleases no matter what, I do believe the approaxch to change is to be found in models overseas where people are showing what you do. Maybe it will take further decline before anything happens. In the face of repression and decline protest is always the way.
This topic is depressing and I don't really want to talk about it anymore. It's a waste of time. The statistics are there, you have the data and talk about Warren being a native Indian is really just an absurd distraction. Maybe generations back, but now? I don't think it really matters. We all go back somewhere. Anyway, watch the lecture and take it or leave it. It's depressing because none of this needed to happen. Globalisation was the great academic con, and sure you can buy food cheaper (reversing heavily in recent years), but when you gut a manufacturing sector. Well, I don't think is any way to treat people. 'We will become a service based economy!'. What a fucking stupid idea and how well it has turned out, the economists are liars and quite predictably the rich have got richer and the poor have expanded.
I'd watch that reality show.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepTell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Have you ever been to the States, Miles? It's a pretty interesting and diverse place filled with all sorts of people.
i.e. adam lanza, the joker, the diverse guys who blew up boston, ben nernanke, obama, yeah, diverse.......and psychotic loaded with seratonin reuptake inhibitors, prozac, etc.
Also quit with the demonising element. I respect people that do well for themselves and that means both you and KS. The only element I question is the military aspect as I find it impossible to reconcile politicians saying shove and people going into wars that they know are nonsense. That aspect I find very sketchy and could never imagine myself being put in that position, but asides from that bar work, teaching, some aspects of the military, those are standup things. I don't dismiss your life nor that of KS. I am sure you are doing well, and it is better that more are doing better too. I want people to live better and more efficient lives.
I've pushed my arguments more on one side, but personally I believe that self moderation and being more careful are important too. I agree with you and KS there. I don't think you should get married have 2 kids and then realise you have no money or permanent home and then get into a mountain of debt to pay for it. That is called stupidity and that is where I get annoyed with humans as they do seem to make a lot of poor decisions. At the same time though, it isn't fair that the basics are 76% more expensive today and that is largely money going straight to the 1%. I don't see how that can be justified. Personal decision making is being taken away from people then. You can choose to delay buying a new suit, but you have to pay the rent.
I pay low rents, low taxes, have a cheap car, cheap healthcare, no children, and both of us work and as a result life is very easy. Those things are a tiny proportion of our income, but I predict it will get worse here. Having the ability to control your own disposable income is very important considering the world we live in people should be more prudent. Like you and KS, I am careful and aware. You don't need to join the rat race. I talk about being careful, but society here is much like America. People are told that they must have those children, and the big car, and the mortgage, and here private education is very costly. As a result, you have a society, with less taxes, but it does get gobbled up in private education and the silly keeping up with the Jones'. Again, it means a country living on credit to alarming levels and most don't need to do that.
Anyway, argument done because it is depressing and I am hungry.