Message to all Americans: your time is up

[VictorCharlie]

I'm a middle class American that is married with three children. We have affordable housing so much that not only did a buy a nice home in a nice neighborhood but I rent it for a profit and rent a 2500 square foot home that I live in. We buy almost no processed food but rather almost 100% organic produce and beef/pork/chicken/fish etc. Our grocery bill is completely affordable. My children go to a good school and all three have accounts we contribute to for their college education. While neither of my cars were bought new or are top of the line I own both. We are getting ready to take the rugrats on our third vacation this year. My wife works but somehow we find the time to eat dinner as a family and regularly do weekend activities. The American middle class is alive and well but no one is going to hand it to you. We made lots of sacrifices as a young couple, work very hard and still have to watch how we spend. You can have a good life here but it takes hard work, deferred gratification and not taking the all to easy victim attitude.

[Andre]

I'm a middle class American that is married with three children. We have affordable housing so much that not only did a buy a nice home in a nice neighborhood but I rent it for a profit and rent a 2500 square foot home that I live in. We buy almost no processed food but rather almost 100% organic produce and beef/pork/chicken/fish etc. Our grocery bill is completely affordable. My children go to a good school and all three have accounts we contribute to for their college education. While neither of my cars were bought new or are top of the line I own both. We are getting ready to take the rugrats on our third vacation this year. My wife works but somehow we find the time to eat dinner as a family and regularly do weekend activities. The American middle class is alive and well but no one is going to hand it to you. We made lots of sacrifices as a young couple, work very hard and still have to watch how we spend. You can have a good life here but it takes hard work, deferred gratification and not taking the all to easy victim attitude.

You guys are do'ers. That for the most part these days is where the line is drawn in the sand between the haves and have nots.
The difference between want and get involves expending energy not taking it.

[VictorCharlie]

Andre that is exactly my point. If you work hard and sacrifice you can make a decent life in this country. Miles is just ignorant of what life is like here but plenty of lazy ass American's would nod their head and go on believing the reason their life sucks is someones elses fault. I'm a pretty generous guy. We give a fair amount of our time to helping others and while we don't do much in cash donations we do give a lot of clothes etc to good will. I'll make an effort to help hardworking people that have hit a rough patch but if I have no compassion for ignorant people waiting around for someone to give them the life they think they deserve.

[Gandalf]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

[killersheep]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

Tell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.

[Gandalf]

Just look at the data Warren provides at the 22 to 30 minute mark. American families have 2 parents working and spend massive proportions of their income on transportation, healthcare, mortgages, taxes and childcare. I am not disputing that there is a middle class and that some are doing very well for themselves. Of course that would be the case, but in general standards of living for middle class people have declined economically over recent decades. For those in the lower end sectors such as long term manufacturing, they have been eradicated and many others will clearly be struggling.

The only way families have survived is by making sure that more women work and in turn that means children are being raised very differently to generations past too. With two parents working families have LESS money that when there were largely single earning families. Now what will you say to disagree with the data that Warren provides? Elizabeth Warren is well respected and your ancedotal 'evidence' is clearly just that. America is a very big country and nobody denies that there are rich people or people with a spare room. I have one too, but that isn't really relevant to a bigger picture.

[killersheep]

Just look at the data Warren provides at the 22 to 30 minute mark. American families have 2 parents working and spend massive proportions of their income on transportation, healthcare, mortgages, taxes and childcare. I am not disputing that there is a middle class and that some are doing very well for themselves. Of course that would be the case, but in general standards of living for middle class people have declined economically over recent decades. For those in the lower end sectors such as long term manufacturing, they have been eradicated and many others will clearly be struggling.

The only way families have survived is by making sure that more women work and in turn that means children are being raised very differently to generations past too. With two parents working families have LESS money that when there were largely single earning families. Now what will you say to disagree with the data that Warren provides? Elizabeth Warren is well respected and your ancedotal 'evidence' is clearly just that. America is a very big country and nobody denies that there are rich people or people with a spare room. I have one too, but that isn't really relevant to a bigger picture.

I equate this phenomena with various things, of course the fact that we have more things as a rule of thumb has a lot to do with it. Just look around your apartment, put yourself in the place of your grandparents at your age and ask which of these things would they have? Even the lower classes have more stuff than prior generations. Here in Phoenix if someone were to live a very simple lifestyle (much akin to generations past) they could live on a minimum wage job, there would be a lot of sacrifices and extra work, but it's not unlike how people in the past lived. The more complicated our lives are the more expensive and the more we think we "need".

The bigger picture here is that I am offering to show you first hand how Americans live in the really real world (and of course I offer a room to my guests, I'm not bragging it's the purpose of the room) I can take you to the ghettos out here, I can take you to the elite neighborhoods. I am offering you the opportunity to examine what your studies are showing first hand. I am offering to show you how amazing and resilient people can be.

[CFH]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

Tell you what man, I have an extra room in my house. You can come over here and I will give you a tour of American living. Outside of youtube the world is a much different place. I would love to show you the revival going on in downtown Phoenix right now.

I'd watch that reality show.

Have you ever been to the States, Miles? It's a pretty interesting and diverse place filled with all sorts of people.

[brocktonblockbust]

i.e. adam lanza, the joker, the diverse guys who blew up boston, ben nernanke, obama, yeah, diverse.......and psychotic loaded with seratonin reuptake inhibitors, prozac, etc.

[VictorCharlie]

I am ignorant? Perhaps you are somewhat ignorant, VC. Maybe you are doing okay, but as far as I can observe significant swathes of your country would disagree with you. All of the things I stated above are true and are easily backed up. It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge, that health care is expensive, that more people are on food stamps, that manufacturing has been shipped to China, that higher education requires serious debt etc. Do you disagree with any of these obvious things? Is Elizabeth Warren also ignorant? As far as I can see she says the middle class is struggling and being pushed to its limits. Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

I always bring up this lecture by Warren to articulate statistically what has happened to the middle class. Give it a view, VC and tell me how well the middle class of America has been faring since the 1960's. The American elite have been carrying out a constant attack for 40 years. This lecture is from several years ago and things have only deteriorated.

I'll bookmark your video but I just don't have time right now to watch and hour long lecture. While I wouldn't call Warren ignorant about the US it should be noted that she is a politician belonging to a party that panders to low income people. It is her business to tell working class people it is someone elses fault that life is hard. W/o watching the video I can't address her issues but I'd want to see her sources and lets be honest she has a history of being dishonest.

Now to answer your question, yes, when it comes to the United States I think you are pretty ignorant in the same way I'm pretty ignorant about the dynamics of Korea or the UK. Of course, I don't spend an exorbitant amount of time posting about those countries and telling their citizens what it is really like in their nation and then dismiss their responses by either saying their statements are invalid b/c of their employment or b/c they are obviously just indoctrinated by a inferior education system. In multiple postings about the US you have failed to provide supporting sources for many of your assertions and I have in turn provided sources showing that some of your statements of fact are actually not accurate. It is not really something to get bent out of shape about. You have never been here much less lived here. From what I can gather you have never really interacted with many Americans other than some randoms at your local pub. Why would you be expected to really understand the US, its people or how things work here? You have probably gotten more American interaction here than anywhere else but of course we are all a bunch of fat neocon zombies.

I don't disagree with you that higher education prices are going up exponentially but this is a problem caused by public policy that is promoted as a means to help middle and lower income families. These two videos overlap some on their ideas but Dr. Lin of American University does a good job of explaining how bad policy has more to do with high tuition than anything else.



The healthcare issue here is more complicated than the tuition issue but it has similar themes. Here is a pretty good video and article about the actual problem and necessary solutions
What's Really Wrong with the Healthcare Industry - Vijay Boyapati - Mises Daily



Now you said

It is a fact that the middle class is shrinking, that wealth inequalities are huge

So lets tackle the stagnation of wages here



and before you tell me that costs are far outpacing even rising wages...



just in case your next point was to say "yeah but the poor are getting even poorer..."



now you are going to tell me "Ok VC but the US has no economic mobility"...



Your last point about the large number of Americans using some type of social safety net....well yeah we are coming out of one of the worst economic downturns in our nation's history. I'm not sure why you'd expect something different.

You said

Also you talk about being middle class, but how did you do it? You served in the military and went to Iraq which is a war that you have admitted was a mistake. Are those the kinds of sacrifices other Americans need to make? Personally, I don't think that is a very fair thing to ask of people.

For starters after college I was a teacher like you making around 65% of what I do now. Then I ran a bar making more than I do now. I chose to be in the military b/c I wanted to do something more meaningful with my life and I wanted a challenge and I took a pay cut to do it. I don't look at my deployments as a sacrifice but rather just part of the job. The sacrifices my wife and I made were more in the lifestyle we lived. For starters once we had children she didn't work which was a significant pay cut. It was important for us that she be at home with at least our first two until they went to school. We went w/o a lot of luxuries we had become accustomed to and in some areas still do. These are the sacrifices I meant. Middle class America needs to do less whining and simply plan better, save more and work harder. The ability to live a good life and improve oneself is still there but it takes these things called discipline, personal accountability and drive.

Tangentially, you have made a lot of posts about two working parents causing the deterioration of the homelife. My wife has worked the last 4 years which is most of my youngest child's life and at least half or more of my other two. My children are well behaved, do well at school and respectful. Two working parents can make a family work just fine. It just requires a little more time and effort on their part.

[Gandalf]

Disturbing Statistics on the Decline of America's Middle Class - DailyFinance

An article showing how much wealth is funneled up and just how many 'stable' factory jobs have been shipped overseas. If that isn't a decimation of an entire sector of the population, then I struggle to imagine anything convincing anybody.

The bottom 40% control less than 1% of the nations wealth.
The middle 20% control 6%.
And the elite 1% control over 40%.

It must be because most of the country are lazy bums who get everything handed to them. It couldn't be that wealth has been sucked up by the super rich at the expensive of everyone else. That would be the commonsense way to approach it.

[VictorCharlie]

As I've stated before we don't live in insular nations anymore. We have a global economy and labor market. If you are looking back to the 1950s or 60s wistfully then you are just wasting your time. The world has changed. Middle class people need to realize they have to compete in this global economy and adjust with it. I addressed most of these points already. Blaming successful people is just class warfare.

[killersheep]

It's not up to America to provide a decent wage, it's a framework so people can provide a decent wage to themselves.

I agree that our military is over reaching and should be contracted. All said and done, I still love my country and truly believe if we start thinking more locally we can become a prosperous nation once again.

I personally have never been unemployed since I have been of legal age to work, and since I was a young child I always did work to earn my way. I find it strange that there is a culture of people that simply don't want to do anything for themselves nowadays. People that eat out for every meal, pay someone to do all the repairs on their house, pay someone to do all the repairs on their car. These are all premium things in my opinion.

Also I work for an American manufacturing company, we have been on a stable profit pattern for many years now. We actually sell parts to China, because they are unable to produce them, themselves.