Are you for or against intervening in Syria?

It seems the chimes of war are out in force yet again. Personally, I have a hard time trusting anything said on our side. Even if Assad was mad enough to play into our hands by using chemical weapons, I still don't understand why these weapons are more important than white phosphorous used against Palestinians or the bombs which will be dropped by our own weapons or why 100,000 dead, was all about waiting for 'chemical' weapons. Furthermore, supporting the other side looks pretty much like supporting various factions of Al Qaeda and nobody in their right mind would support that.

I am 100% against getting involved as quite simply, we have no idea what we are playing with. All this evidence John Kerry is talking about is something that still isn't released to us, and in this day and age, we know the Americans will doctor anything to go to war.

This is a clusterfuck....for a guy who hates George W. Bush he's out W-ing W when it comes to foreign policy stupidity. At the very least W got use of force in Iraq authorized by Congress....Obama isn't even doing that, he's looking past Congress, past the UN, and why? Because he said there was a "red line", Asad crossed it (although apparently the rebels have too) and now he doesn't want to look like a punk.

Secretary of State John Kerry once blasted George W. Bush for going to war in Iraq without a plan for peace....well how will we win the peace in Syria?


Also it's fucking idiotic that we're mad that Asad's military apparently indiscriminately targeted innocent civilians with chemical weapons so we're going to indiscriminately lob missiles and bombs into Syria killing....anyone? anyone???? INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

Barack Obama is further fucking up in an area people never knew could be fucked up any further. I would LOVE for an Obama supporter to explain why it's in our best interests to intervene in a Civil War?

Syria is Russia's satellite state, let THEM fix it! And honestly if you're giving me a choice of "Who do you support Asad or the 'rebels'?" I will say Asad because although he's a thug dictator he'll only gas HIS people, Al Queda want those weapons....don't doubt it and they WILL use them against the United States and our Allies.


This is just more proof that Obama has no clue about what he's doing....he has no clue

I don't think it is wise intervening, best leave well alone the West should learn by it's mistakes,
to many faction's involved who do you back, a mine field of problems for those who get involved,!
sorry we may fight and give our lives for them, today friend tomorrow foe.

Very sad seeing people being killed,but in this case stay out of the Middle East what price oil
I tell you a very high price indeed.

I am against bloodshed, but what has to happen will happen. One book starting with B predicts some major conflict very soon, it might be Syria. Every country around Israel will be on fire

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

I am against bloodshed, but what has to happen will happen. One book starting with B predicts some major conflict very soon, it might be Syria. Every country around Israel will be on fire

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You are a sick little twit.

You can never lose a bet predicting there will be turmoil in the Middle East.

It's not Judgment Day or The Apocalypse or The Rapture....but since Russia, China, and now the United States and our allies are getting involved this COULD lead us to World War III fairly easily. All it takes is for one of the groups involved to step outside the sandbox of Syria say into Iran or Iraq and shit could hit the fan real quick.

Its a wrong move by the United States to get involved...and I'm a person who is typically all for the US whipping some ass, it's just the stakes to this game are going to be mighty high.

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

I am against bloodshed, but what has to happen will happen. One book starting with B predicts some major conflict very soon, it might be Syria. Every country around Israel will be on fire

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Revelation predicts alot of things.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

I am against bloodshed, but what has to happen will happen. One book starting with B predicts some major conflict very soon, it might be Syria. Every country around Israel will be on fire

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You are a sick little twit.

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It is only your opinion. I will pray for you, bro

Although Assad is a cunt for using chemical weapons against his own people I think it would be an absolute mess if we intervened. The 'rebels' is such a loose term for loads of factions in Syria ranging from pro Western to pro Al Qaeda who only have being anti-Assad in common. If we took the government of Syria out what direction could the country take? It would be even more divided. Sometimes western ideologies don't work, Egypt being the prime example. After taking the military rulers out and a year of democracy its gone full circle and the countries right back to where it was before the Arab Spring. Sorry for the long winded reply but for those reasons I voted no :)

Is there Oil there ??.

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Originally Posted by Bo-Bo24

Although Assad is a cunt for using chemical weapons against his own people I think it would be an absolute mess if we intervened. The 'rebels' is such a loose term for loads of factions in Syria ranging from pro Western to pro Al Qaeda who only have being anti-Assad in common. If we took the government of Syria out what direction could the country take? It would be even more divided. Sometimes western ideologies don't work, Egypt being the prime example. After taking the military rulers out and a year of democracy its gone full circle and the countries right back to where it was before the Arab Spring. Sorry for the long winded reply but for those reasons I voted no :)

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The answer to the question is simple.

No matter what religion you are or whatever you believe in you have just got to put yourself or your family in that situation.

Usa and uk seem and act like they own the world and intervene in whatever they want.

The UN are a waste of space and never do what there suppose to be doing.

If it was your children and family getting blown to bits and terrorised wouldnt you want anyone regardless of country to get involved?

So would I.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Bo-Bo24

Although Assad is a cunt for using chemical weapons against his own people I think it would be an absolute mess if we intervened. The 'rebels' is such a loose term for loads of factions in Syria ranging from pro Western to pro Al Qaeda who only have being anti-Assad in common. If we took the government of Syria out what direction could the country take? It would be even more divided. Sometimes western ideologies don't work, Egypt being the prime example. After taking the military rulers out and a year of democracy its gone full circle and the countries right back to where it was before the Arab Spring. Sorry for the long winded reply but for those reasons I voted no :)

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The answer to the question is simple.

No matter what religion you are or whatever you believe in you have just got to put yourself or your family in that situation.

Usa and uk seem and act like they own the world and intervene in whatever they want.

The UN are a waste of space and never do what there suppose to be doing.

If it was your children and family getting blown to bits and terrorised wouldnt you want anyone regardless of country to get involved?

So would I.

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I agree but intervening with force would just throw Syria into even more turmoil than its already in with an even longer and harder rebuilding process than what happened with Iraq

WW3 coming up.
Rest of the world vs syria, russia and the biggest army in the world china.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

It seems the chimes of war are out in force yet again. Personally, I have a hard time trusting anything said on our side. Even if Assad was mad enough to play into our hands by using chemical weapons, I still don't understand why these weapons are more important than white phosphorous used against Palestinians or the bombs which will be dropped by our own weapons or why 100,000 dead, was all about waiting for 'chemical' weapons. Furthermore, supporting the other side looks pretty much like supporting various factions of Al Qaeda and nobody in their right mind would support that.

I am 100% against getting involved as quite simply, we have no idea what we are playing with. All this evidence John Kerry is talking about is something that still isn't released to us, and in this day and age, we know the Americans will doctor anything to go to war.

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Seriously Miles? Did you have a propagandist write this for you? It's full of spin and mis-direction. Unsurprisingly it fulfils your aganda. Even the phrasing of the poll is completely biased.

What is the question?


Should we support the Syrian rebels ?

or

Are you for or against intervening in Syria ?

You seem entirely comfortable using the death and poisoning of innocent people, many of them women and children, blinded, maimed, burnt and asphyxiated to make a silly political point about Palestine. So you are now picking and choosing which is the most fashionable rebel army to support ?

What do you suggest we do ? Cross the street ? leave the robbed and beaten Samaritan to die ? Interesting how you have aligned yourself with those of supposedly opposite views of late and revealed yourself as the right wing conservative you always were.
As a liberal I think supporting the armed overthrow of tyrannical rule is not something that should remain only the privilege of the west. And there you go and align yourselves with those who use the philosophy that formed their country like a dirty word.

So beanz you're OK with Al Qaeda getting their hands on chemical weapons? That's what toppling Asad will get us. I'm a bellicose motherfucker but even I am against this move.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

It seems the chimes of war are out in force yet again. Personally, I have a hard time trusting anything said on our side. Even if Assad was mad enough to play into our hands by using chemical weapons, I still don't understand why these weapons are more important than white phosphorous used against Palestinians or the bombs which will be dropped by our own weapons or why 100,000 dead, was all about waiting for 'chemical' weapons. Furthermore, supporting the other side looks pretty much like supporting various factions of Al Qaeda and nobody in their right mind would support that.

I am 100% against getting involved as quite simply, we have no idea what we are playing with. All this evidence John Kerry is talking about is something that still isn't released to us, and in this day and age, we know the Americans will doctor anything to go to war.

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Seriously Miles? Did you have a propagandist write this for you? It's full of spin and mis-direction. Unsurprisingly it fulfils your aganda. Even the phrasing of the poll is completely biased.

What is the question?


Should we support the Syrian rebels ?

or

Are you for or against intervening in Syria ?

You seem entirely comfortable using the death and poisoning of innocent people, many of them women and children, blinded, maimed, burnt and asphyxiated to make a silly political point about Palestine. So you are now picking and choosing which is the most fashionable rebel army to support ?

What do you suggest we do ? Cross the street ? leave the robbed and beaten Samaritan to die ? Interesting how you have aligned yourself with those of supposedly opposite views of late and revealed yourself as the right wing conservative you always were.
As a liberal I think supporting the armed overthrow of tyrannical rule is not something that should remain only the privilege of the west. And there you go and align yourselves with those who use the philosophy that formed their country like a dirty word.

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There is no spin or misdirection. Once again we are being dictated that because a certain act has allegedly been commited, then that is the 'red line' and 'we will now sort you out'. Well, that is outrageous. Where is the actual proof that the Syrian government used chemical weapons? Why the immediate desire not to go the way of the UN? This is all following exactly the same blueprint as Iraq and we know how that is today. Britain is a country where everything is being cut, wages haven't increased since 2008, and yet we can afford to intervene in countries and by taking the side of Alqaeda and extremist muslim elements. We seemingly don't need a national debate, we certainly don't care what the people of Britain think, as Obama has pointed his finger and we must stand meekly at his side. It is fucking preposterous that things are evolving like this.

Over 100,000 civilians have died already in a bloody civil war and now because of the use of chemical weapons we must now act? It is a very valid point that Israel used phosphorous against the Palestinians. Where was the outrage and call for intervention then? I make the point because it as on obvious double standard. That is not spin, it is a comparison. Furthermore, the US itself has armed Egypt which slaughters its own people, it sells cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia, a regime with no parallel in the region for its oppression and brutality. Again, I make the point to show comparison. America and Britain are not arbiters of morality and to be taking the side of Al Qaeda after all this bullshit about 'war on terror' and the subsequent horror commited in the Middle East and subsequent dismantling of personal freedoms at home is an outrage.

People hate us because we keep on doing shitty things and of course they would like to blow us up. If they would just stop with the imperial games, then nobody would give two hoots about us. But the entire thing is a joke and we are problem.

And just another comparison is the role of the United States itself. This is a country that has used nuclear bombs, covered Vietnam with napalm, assasinates people on foreign territory without due trial, makes up evidence and engages in wars of illicit aggression. Now they are trying to piece together the Geneva articles, but since when has America been bothered with international law? The hypocrisy is just beyond the pale. Again, where are the strikes against the US and the prosecutions for the White House war criminals and secret agents who allegedly even assasinated their own President (Kennedy).

Apparently the alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria, if ignored by America, would be a 'threat to the United States'. Now can anybody make any sense of the rhetoric, bluster, or bullshit of these people? They are clearly not breathing the same air that the rest of us do.

Also it is the rebels who have seemingly used Sarin nerve gas in the past. However, we are only seeing what we want to see in this issue. This has NOTHING to do with the use of chemical weapons. Obama and Cameron are prepared to go beyond the UN over chemical weapons, when the people they are supporting use chemical weapons. This is a civil war and look at us itching to use our big toys.

Syrian rebels used Sarin nerve gas, not Assad's regime: U.N. official - Washington Times

If this where happening in Africa or Asia no one would say shit. Since the U.S. is a puppet of Israel there will be strikes of some kind.

I say no intervention till there is a solid plan made first, no friggin blind strikes like in Iraq where the Bush&Cheeney did show that they have been the worst clueless tandem of all time. We don't want to repeat a carnage with no "and then what" kind of plan.

Somebody has to stop this history repeating itself gig. Its like a real life episode of the Twilight Zone.

Unless someone can point out what the objective is beyond some kind of oddball retribution then let nature take its course. The fact that inspectors cant even get in to see the evidence to make a finding ought to tell you something.

Funny when you read this: the biggest question it brings to mind is 'IS America the God of Israel?

At the very end of this age all nations will be gathered against Israel for war. But despite sophisticated weapons, they will be defeated by the God of Israel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M


ISRAEL, FUCK YEAH!

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Somebody has to stop this history repeating itself gig. Its like a real life episode of the Twilight Zone.

Unless someone can point out what the objective is beyond some kind of oddball retribution then let nature take its course. The fact that inspectors cant even get in to see the evidence to make a finding ought to tell you something.

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Precisely. What happens next? The media is slanting it as though America mustn't show weakness to Iran, but surely bombing Syria for 3 days will kill many more than those killed in this chemical attack. An attack which still hasn't been proven the responsibility of Assad and at the end of the day, the US media needs to quit harping on about Iran.They should look out for their own wayward Captain with his drones, Guantanamo, spying, etc first.

America is yet again seeking to extend its debt window and yet once again Captain America is wading in using taxpayer money to fund the very people they have been spending billions of dollars fighting against. What an absolute cluster bomb, sorry I mean clusterfuck. Obama doesn't care about his own consitution, so when he waffles on about international law and having to be careful, it makes me cringe. Bush and Cheney are walking free and Obama has the temerity to talk about international law. He's a joker, that one.

I can see how people in England and America are more free than people in SYria or people in Iraq under Saddam. Nobody is disputing that. I would of course anyday rather be in America than Syria or Iraq, nobody I hope is disputing that either. So I can see the logic, though well, well stretched to unidentifiable proportions, that "Its better to have the US/UK system of governance imposed over the whole world rather than the Assad or the Saddam systems."

But that is just pure logic, like a Darwinian anthem, that "we may as well bully our way around like a world policeman because we would rather that all the world is like the US/UK".

It has to be allowed to happen naturally, if it happens at ALL, as the 13 colonies of King George naturally and in due course took the decisions to resist tyranny by themselves when the time was right, or ripe.

Nobody intervened on behalf of the 13 colonies, they fought it out tooth and nail against the Red Coats and won. So the Syrian rebels must do the same thing.

The US/UK maniacs are jumping in all around the world intervening and nation building and it is wrong. And it causes blow-back. It it will continue to cause blow-back. And all the NSA Homeland Security Obama Drones of Destruction and NTSA gropings at airports and iris scans and RFID chips and CCTVs and satellite images WILL NOT STOP THE BLOW-BACK, as it is a natural reaction to a foreign force meddling in your business.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

I can see how people in England and America are more free than people in SYria or people in Iraq under Saddam. Nobody is disputing that. I would of course anyday rather be in America than Syria or Iraq, nobody I hope is disputing that either. So I can see the logic, though well, well stretched to unidentifiable proportions, that "Its better to have the US/UK system of governance imposed over the whole world rather than the Assad or the Saddam systems."

But that is just pure logic, like a Darwinian anthem, that "we may as well bully our way around like a world policeman because we would rather that all the world is like the US/UK".

It has to be allowed to happen naturally, if it happens at ALL, as the 13 colonies of King George naturally and in due course took the decisions to resist tyranny by themselves when the time was right, or ripe.

Nobody intervened on behalf of the 13 colonies, they fought it out tooth and nail against the Red Coats and won. So the Syrian rebels must do the same thing.

The US/UK maniacs are jumping in all around the world intervening and nation building and it is wrong. And it causes blow-back. It it will continue to cause blow-back. And all the NSA Homeland Security Obama Drones of Destruction and NTSA gropings at airports and iris scans and RFID chips and CCTVs and satellite images WILL NOT STOP THE BLOW-BACK, as it is a natural reaction to a foreign force meddling in your business.

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I have a Syrian friend, his cousins son and wife were dragged into the street and both executed,
shot in the head dreadful, he was devastated he told me he was very worried about the rest of
his family.! Trouble is our Western way's are totally unsuitable, for the Middle East we may think
we are the dogs bollocks, we are in our own back yard, but not so in others .!
Remember our life style suits us, but it may not suit others and we should not force our ways onto
others, as the song goes, White man came across the sea he brought us, pain and misery never a true
word.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Is there Oil there ??.

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Not enough to make it a consideration in whether we get involved or not. If there was a lot of oil there we'd have been stuck in ages ago.

The Syrian war is just getting started. It could easily last another decade. And the west getting involved isn't going to help things any. Hopefully they just fire a few missiles and then let the Syrians get on with it.

And there's zero chance of any wider conflict developing (except into Lebanon, Iraq and so on.) We heard the same nonsense about Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, you name it. Hopefully even the Americans and Brits won't be dumb enough to put boots on the ground there, certainly nobody else is.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Is there Oil there ??.

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Not enough to make it a consideration in whether we get involved or not. If there was a lot of oil there we'd have been stuck in ages ago.

The Syrian war is just getting started. It could easily last another decade. And the west getting involved isn't going to help things any. Hopefully they just fire a few missiles and then let the Syrians get on with it.

And there's zero chance of any wider conflict developing (except into Lebanon, Iraq and so on.) We heard the same nonsense about Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, you name it. Hopefully even the Americans and Brits won't be dumb enough to put boots on the ground there, certainly nobody else is.

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Oil is their main export but go on, you were saying?

Also it seems that YOUR President will be using force without Congress having had a vote to allow that.....but hell what do I know? You were on the whole "Hope & Change" bandwagon perhaps you can explain which part of that, attacking Syria without a Congressional vote authorizing force or UN support is....Hope or Change???

They should get support and mandate from the UN.

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Originally Posted by Master

They should get support and mandate from the UN.

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UN are pointless and powerless

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Master

They should get support and mandate from the UN.

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UN are pointless and powerless

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Everything goes there and they need the full support from China and Russia.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Master

They should get support and mandate from the UN.

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UN are pointless and powerless

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Everything goes there and they need the full support from China and Russia.

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They just bypass the UN whenever they feel like it.

Bombs will drop in the next 25 hours then it all kicks off.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Master

They should get support and mandate from the UN.

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UN are pointless and powerless

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Everything goes there and they need the full support from China and Russia.

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They just bypass the UN whenever they feel like it.

Bombs will drop in the next 25 hours then it all kicks off.

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Labour will not support it.

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

I can see how people in England and America are more free than people in SYria or people in Iraq under Saddam. Nobody is disputing that. I would of course anyday rather be in America than Syria or Iraq, nobody I hope is disputing that either. So I can see the logic, though well, well stretched to unidentifiable proportions, that "Its better to have the US/UK system of governance imposed over the whole world rather than the Assad or the Saddam systems."

But that is just pure logic, like a Darwinian anthem, that "we may as well bully our way around like a world policeman because we would rather that all the world is like the US/UK".

It has to be allowed to happen naturally, if it happens at ALL, as the 13 colonies of King George naturally and in due course took the decisions to resist tyranny by themselves when the time was right, or ripe.

Nobody intervened on behalf of the 13 colonies, they fought it out tooth and nail against the Red Coats and won. So the Syrian rebels must do the same thing.

The US/UK maniacs are jumping in all around the world intervening and nation building and it is wrong. And it causes blow-back. It it will continue to cause blow-back. And all the NSA Homeland Security Obama Drones of Destruction and NTSA gropings at airports and iris scans and RFID chips and CCTVs and satellite images WILL NOT STOP THE BLOW-BACK, as it is a natural reaction to a foreign force meddling in your business.

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I have a Syrian friend, his cousins son and wife were dragged into the street and both executed,
shot in the head dreadful, he was devastated he told me he was very worried about the rest of
his family.! Trouble is our Western way's are totally unsuitable, for the Middle East we may think
we are the dogs bollocks, we are in our own back yard, but not so in others .!
Remember our life style suits us, but it may not suit others and we should not force our ways onto
others, as the song goes, White man came across the sea he brought us, pain and misery never a true
word.

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How true,but sadly we watch this area and its surrounding countries escalate into it again and again, boarders will be breached, we will side with our old favorites and it'll be on again. These fucking idiots that run these sand holes can never live in peace they are unforgiving for centuries and the idiots dont learn a thing they teach new vengeance to their offspring. I wish we had just let the whole middle east be and cease any dealings with any of them when we could of. Australia the US, New Zealand, Canada other smaller neutral countries that wanted to join would do so fast, even ones like Chili etc. We could link armies and commerce and go total self sufficient with protection facing every way over every ocean. We still have all the untapped resources including gas and oil reserves that we need,all the lands and climates covered to grow whatever we require, these lot would go bankrupt in no time if we pulled the pin on our dealings with them.But greed keeps our rulers in there cause they have already committed us into so many financial and sub political forms of control there.
Its madness brewing on a grand scale.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

I can see how people in England and America are more free than people in SYria or people in Iraq under Saddam. Nobody is disputing that. I would of course anyday rather be in America than Syria or Iraq, nobody I hope is disputing that either. So I can see the logic, though well, well stretched to unidentifiable proportions, that "Its better to have the US/UK system of governance imposed over the whole world rather than the Assad or the Saddam systems."

But that is just pure logic, like a Darwinian anthem, that "we may as well bully our way around like a world policeman because we would rather that all the world is like the US/UK".

It has to be allowed to happen naturally, if it happens at ALL, as the 13 colonies of King George naturally and in due course took the decisions to resist tyranny by themselves when the time was right, or ripe.

Nobody intervened on behalf of the 13 colonies, they fought it out tooth and nail against the Red Coats and won. So the Syrian rebels must do the same thing.

The US/UK maniacs are jumping in all around the world intervening and nation building and it is wrong. And it causes blow-back. It it will continue to cause blow-back. And all the NSA Homeland Security Obama Drones of Destruction and NTSA gropings at airports and iris scans and RFID chips and CCTVs and satellite images WILL NOT STOP THE BLOW-BACK, as it is a natural reaction to a foreign force meddling in your business.

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You miss my point. Apart from the fact the French. the Spanish and the Dutch helped provide money for munitions against the British ( who many Native Americans sided with Miles ) I am not, unlike the simplistic logic that Gandalf uses to make a political point, suggesting we support the rebels. Not closing our eyes when people use chemical weapons is not an excuse for attacking civilians. It is also no good pretending that it does not matter what people do as long as it is not in my garden. Just as an eye for an eye makes the world go blind all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to avert their eyes. It is very complicated and not helped by the fact that arch enemies like Lyle( @El Kabong ) and Kirkland ( @Kirkland Laing ), Miles ( @Gandalf )and nearly everyone else seems to think that inaction is the best option. Even somebody like @Andre who professes like Miles to not see anything special about the country that he is living or was born in, is not acting like a true Internationalist if a countries border is suddenly important as an excuse not to act when it is in the power of others to do so. It is not surprising when countries like China and Russia do nothing but when even moderate European countries like Germany and France do nothing to help those who are oppressed they are in dereliction of their positions as so called bastions of democracy. It is easy to look after your own looking out for those with which you have much less in common is much more commendable and takes true courage and love.

They need to find out the individuals and commanders responsible and try them in a court of law. If that is impossible than you send in the people who are capable to take them swiftly out. That should not be the job of Britain and America but the UN and the many other countries that make it up have repeatedly not stepped up to the mark. You can not always wait for natural justice to occur. How many Jews were needlessly exterminated by nations inaction? How many could have been saved in Rowanda? Cambodia? I don't have any great solution but I refuse to take the position of least resistance. I am not black but I have fought against racists and facists here and in Italy. I am not a miner, a nurse or a teacher but I have supported their cause. I don't have Cancer or have not suffered a stroke but I have raised awareness and money for those that do. Solidarity is not defined by national borders, class or racial divides and nor should compassion or a desire for justice.

I don't have time to post much as I have to go somewhere, but needless to say, I am glad that in the UK at least, Labour is putting up some resistance at last.

Back from the brink: David Cameron forced to retreat over Syria - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Greenbeanz, you seem to think that a lot of us don't care or are inhumane. We are not, we just don't see how bombing the shit out of a place for several days in a display of 'strength' helps things in Syria. I am all for trying to use the UN and we should definitely allow inspectors to reach their own conclusions first. Britain and America wanted to rush in and not allow for adequate checks and that would have been outrageous. They have blamed a side, but as has been seen before we either get it wrong or else lie. America is the last country to be blaming others over WMD or chemical weapons.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

I can see how people in England and America are more free than people in SYria or people in Iraq under Saddam. Nobody is disputing that. I would of course anyday rather be in America than Syria or Iraq, nobody I hope is disputing that either. So I can see the logic, though well, well stretched to unidentifiable proportions, that "Its better to have the US/UK system of governance imposed over the whole world rather than the Assad or the Saddam systems."

But that is just pure logic, like a Darwinian anthem, that "we may as well bully our way around like a world policeman because we would rather that all the world is like the US/UK".

It has to be allowed to happen naturally, if it happens at ALL, as the 13 colonies of King George naturally and in due course took the decisions to resist tyranny by themselves when the time was right, or ripe.

Nobody intervened on behalf of the 13 colonies, they fought it out tooth and nail against the Red Coats and won. So the Syrian rebels must do the same thing.

The US/UK maniacs are jumping in all around the world intervening and nation building and it is wrong. And it causes blow-back. It it will continue to cause blow-back. And all the NSA Homeland Security Obama Drones of Destruction and NTSA gropings at airports and iris scans and RFID chips and CCTVs and satellite images WILL NOT STOP THE BLOW-BACK, as it is a natural reaction to a foreign force meddling in your business.

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You miss my point. Apart from the fact the French. the Spanish and the Dutch helped provide money for munitions against the British ( who many Native Americans sided with Miles ) I am not, unlike the simplistic logic that Gandalf uses to make a political point, suggesting we support the rebels. Not closing our eyes when people use chemical weapons is not an excuse for attacking civilians. It is also no good pretending that it does not matter what people do as long as it is not in my garden. Just as an eye for an eye makes the world go blind all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to avert their eyes. It is very complicated and not helped by the fact that arch enemies like Lyle( @El Kabong ) and Kirkland ( @Kirkland Laing ), Miles ( @Gandalf )and nearly everyone else seems to think that inaction is the best option. Even somebody like @Andre who professes like Miles to not see anything special about the country that he is living or was born in, is not acting like a true Internationalist if a countries border is suddenly important as an excuse not to act when it is in the power of others to do so. It is not surprising when countries like China and Russia do nothing but when even moderate European countries like Germany and France do nothing to help those who are oppressed they are in dereliction of their positions as so called bastions of democracy. It is easy to look after your own looking out for those with which you have much less in common is much more commendable and takes true courage and love.

They need to find out the individuals and commanders responsible and try them in a court of law. If that is impossible than you send in the people who are capable to take them swiftly out. That should not be the job of Britain and America but the UN and the many other countries that make it up have repeatedly not stepped up to the mark. You can not always wait for natural justice to occur. How many Jews were needlessly exterminated by nations inaction? How many could have been saved in Rowanda? Cambodia? I don't have any great solution but I refuse to take the position of least resistance. I am not black but I have fought against racists and facists here and in Italy. I am not a miner, a nurse or a teacher but I have supported their cause. I don't have Cancer or have not suffered a stroke but I have raised awareness and money for those that do. Solidarity is not defined by national borders, class or racial divides and nor should compassion or a desire for justice.

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I would normally be with you,but i honestly think if we go in again it will be an excuse for Muslim extremists to join the world over to pull off a few big strikes and start what we wont be able to stop for many years, the horror and billions that will suffer may not be worth it.

Like you say a hit squad in and out maybe the answer but you wouldnt want to wear colors it would have to be covert and if caught they die silent. But to walk on in and drop a flag and park no way,Im not for that.

I think every neighboring enemy we have ever made in that region and all the ones that now live in secret amongst us, will use it for an excuse for the next holy war. You know 'the demon is on holy ground' if you are for Allah and the prophet you must arm yourself and fight the devil in your homeland or here blah blah blah. You know you want it!

I also think if we do get involved and cant withdraw you may find Nth Korea and China sitting there like vultures ready for us all to weaken and move in on our homelands while we are all off fighting others fights.

I smell a big steaming nuked rat race in that exact arena one day.

Situational ethics.

I wonder, if it was China that did this or accused of doing so?

How about North Korea? A modern day killing fields. Probably responsible for more murders then Pol Pot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Situational ethics.

I wonder, if it was China that did this or accused of doing so?

How about North Korea? A modern day killing fields. Probably responsible for more murders then Pol Pot.

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The West postures when it wants to, but as far as I can see Egypt shot dead its own protestors with US funded military equipmentand we fail to acknowledge a coup, China shot hundreds dead in Tiannamen and we rewarded China with investment so that labour could be exploited and the exploiters got rich, in Syria we respond by saying there must be regime change. Judging by historical precedent Assad must be feeling very hard done by. I guess you either have to be a US puppet or at least allow their corporations to abuse you. Tut, tut Assad for being a little too independent.

We also forget the golden rules. Never get involved with a country that can defend itself to an expected degree and has no resources of its own. China owns the US fiscally and now has global trade and resources links, it is too powerful. Plus the trade ties with China are still working for the US corporatists. North Korea has no resources, but it has nukes and is equipped.

Morally North Korea is a great case in point, but we don't approach these things morally. We give lip service to morality, our big thing is power and control either in terms of strategic interest or obtaining resources.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Situational ethics.

I wonder, if it was China that did this or accused of doing so?

How about North Korea? A modern day killing fields. Probably responsible for more murders then Pol Pot.

---

The West postures when it wants to, but as far as I can see Egypt shot dead its own protestors with US funded military equipmentand we fail to acknowledge a coup, China shot hundreds dead in Tiannamen and we rewarded China with investment so that labour could be exploited and the exploiters got rich, in Syria we respond by saying there must be regime change. Judging by historical precedent Assad must be feeling very hard done by. I guess you either have to be a US puppet or at least allow their corporations to abuse you. Tut, tut Assad for being a little too independent.

We also forget the golden rules. Never get involved with a country that can defend itself to an expected degree and has no resources of its own. China owns the US fiscally and now has global trade and resources links, it is too powerful. Plus the trade ties with China are still working for the US corporatists. North Korea has no resources, but it has nukes and is equipped.

Morally North Korea is a great case in point, but we don't approach these things morally. We give lip service to morality, our big thing is power and control either in terms of strategic interest or obtaining resources.

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This species has been sociopath in nature since we left the tree. Nothing has proven that out more then foreign policy. Actually its more then that, its downright schizophrenic. I blame it as the years go by for my growing indifference. Which in a way makes me a sociopath.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Situational ethics.

I wonder, if it was China that did this or accused of doing so?

How about North Korea? A modern day killing fields. Probably responsible for more murders then Pol Pot.

---

The West postures when it wants to, but as far as I can see Egypt shot dead its own protestors with US funded military equipmentand we fail to acknowledge a coup, China shot hundreds dead in Tiannamen and we rewarded China with investment so that labour could be exploited and the exploiters got rich, in Syria we respond by saying there must be regime change. Judging by historical precedent Assad must be feeling very hard done by. I guess you either have to be a US puppet or at least allow their corporations to abuse you. Tut, tut Assad for being a little too independent.

We also forget the golden rules. Never get involved with a country that can defend itself to an expected degree and has no resources of its own. China owns the US fiscally and now has global trade and resources links, it is too powerful. Plus the trade ties with China are still working for the US corporatists. North Korea has no resources, but it has nukes and is equipped.

Morally North Korea is a great case in point, but we don't approach these things morally. We give lip service to morality, our big thing is power and control either in terms of strategic interest or obtaining resources.

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This species has been sociopath in nature since we left the tree. Nothing has proven that out more then foreign policy. Actually its more then that, its downright schizophrenic. I blame it as the years go by for my growing indifference. Which in a way makes me a sociopath.

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Capital! Lets join forces and go up against the Republicans and Liberals with a new formed political party The Sociopaths.:cool: Im in.