A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!

Ray Robinson... The greatest record of any boxer of all time. The all time p4p king! Credited with producing the greatest body of work.

A couple hundred fights, mostly wins but a couple dozen losses as well.

I'm not going to knock the record, it is what it is but I would like to point out 3 points about Ray often "swept under the rug".

1/ He lost to some pretty shit opponents

2/ His record is padded beyond measure with so many bums it's difficult to keep count.

3/ His film reveals the truth. His defence was wide open and although he looks impressive against his opponents he might not be such the thrashing machine were he to face modern comp.

If Ray struggled with a lummox like Ray LaMotta, how would he cope with a highly trained young machine such as Saul Canelo Alverez? Or Gennady Golovkin?

Let me tell you a little secret, nobody can have 100+ fights, let alone 200+ against "good quality" opponents. The damage accumulated is too great and they would reach bust well before the end. Whenever you see a figure like this on old timers records you know they were padding and a quick analysis reveals they are. It's one of the things that seperates modern methods from olden days ones.

Evander Holyfield was once asked to sit for an interview about boxing and its history and he was scripted to say that Ali and other greats were much tougher in their day and so forth. Evander was set to deliver his speech but decided to buck the authority and vented his own thoughts instead, to the disgust of the host. He told that the modern boxer does not have to fight as often anymore yet through more calculated training and recovery they are doubly effective. He told how he had taken what was there in the past and built upon it and was better than all who came before him.

I am inclined to agree with Evander. These old guys going from fight to fight were tough as nails but they were always in a state of depletion and never fully recovered from a fight before they were thrust into the next one. They had not the faintest idea how a boxer should properly prepare themselves. They had more in common with thugs than with athletes.

The argument put forth in my last article seems to have boiled down to an issue of weight and size. That modern HW's are effective due to strength mainly but the ancient warriors had greater skills.

Well I put forth the argument that on film, Ray Robinson looks wide open in defence, telegraphed his shots badly for an opponent of Mayweather and hence would be looking down the barrel of a wide UD loss here. Size and weight play no role here. Mayweather would simply out-skill SRR and make him look completely stupid!

Think not? I would like to know HOW Robinson could beat Mayweather? Because the evidence points strongly towards the other conclusion. And since you would be the one making the seemingly outrageous claim that a fighter from 70 years ago could beat the current p4p champ, a defensive master unheard of in his day, the burden of proof is on you!

So much for the P4P argument against the modern boxers!

you are really starting to reach now arent you? the HW division just wasnt enough for you huh?

you should create a blog so you can post your foolishness.

Now what happens if ray had the same training modalities that todays modern fighters have? You think ray would fight exactly how they fought way back then.

Whats next, A look at bruce lee vs jet li.

interesting read, though I would ask for images or animated gifs to back it up
I could help you with that, I mean making gifs and such , if you'd be interested in blogging at my website

Again, if Robinson lived in this area... He'd have the extra half a century of sports science, nutrition, PEDs and sporting history/experience to learn from.

You can only judge a guy relative to the context of their area.

Like I've already said...

Who are the 'pretty shit' opponents that Robinson lost to? Who is Ray LaMotta? Jake LaMotta was a pretty good fighter, a guy that went out of his way to fight the best guys around.
More thugs than athletes? My gracious...those guys fought a lot because that was how you make a living, you work at your trade. That is also how you get good at something, and it shows.
For the most part, the skill level in modern boxing is horrible. Guys take turns punching- you don't see much slipping and countering, the bobbing and weaving. No class, for the most part.

Ray Robinson is the Greatest ever. He never ducked anyone in his era and Lamotta was a middleweight fighting a welterweight. Also not only did Ray avenge the loss he fought a tune up fight all in a 3 week span. Most of his losses were when he was in his twilight years. And out of 200 fights he was knocked out once by heat exhaustion. The sad part is that there are only a few dozen of his fights recorded and we will never see how truly great he was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3Fh6FTaTE

them combos was vicious

It's a good point, but it's a very unpopular point, so you will get thrashed.

Boxing fans don't want to hear this stuff. They have "golden-age fever". Unless you want to talk about how great the old guys were, how tough they were, how they'd make our modern fighters look foolish in the ring, your opinion is not wanted.

There are guys on here who will argue the virtues of a guy they've never even seen fight. They'll tell you how fighter x who they've never seen would have whipped a guy like Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, or Floyd Mayweather.

It's just nonsense.

With all due respect...I have asked this before and I ask again...What is your boxing history? I understand that it is natural to think most highly of the guys you watched as you learned, I did that myself...
If Mayweather were to fight Robinson, he would not be able to lay back and pick his spots. He would have to fight. When he fought, he would get hit and hurt. Then he would get defensive. Robinson would probably stop him, though Mayweather could hang on to the end, if he kept within himself. If he fights, he gets stopped, and he'll have to fight.

Yet another fishing expedition. As much as some of us may overestimate the written word of boxing history lacking in film evidence to prove so also do many underestimate fighters and eras past and the incredible pace they had to contend with. Just as is the case with much of history, the cameras were not around. That in and of itself is not proof that historians are wrong. Nothing will be solved in this thread anymore then it did in all those threads that came before it on the same subject matter. W/o a time machine its futile;D

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Yet another fishing expedition. As much as some of us may overestimate the written word of boxing history lacking in film evidence to prove so also do many underestimate fighters and eras past and the incredible pace they had to contend with. Just as is the case with much of history, the cameras were not around. That in and of itself is not proof that historians are wrong. Nothing will be solved in this thread anymore then it did in all those threads that came before it on the same subject matter. W/o a time machine its futile;D

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We can only hope Stewie Griffin can rebuild his time machine so we can find out who are the best boxers and we can bring back Brian.
Until then all hope is lost.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Yet another fishing expedition. As much as some of us may overestimate the written word of boxing history lacking in film evidence to prove so also do many underestimate fighters and eras past and the incredible pace they had to contend with. Just as is the case with much of history, the cameras were not around. That in and of itself is not proof that historians are wrong. Nothing will be solved in this thread anymore then it did in all those threads that came before it on the same subject matter. W/o a time machine its futile;D

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My problem is not so much with what can or can't be proven, but with the fallacies that boxing fans use regarding the old timers and the inconsistent criteria that is used to judge old and modern fighters.

We are completely unrelenting in our demands for fighters to constantly prove their worth to us. We don't care about potential, or what the experts say, we only care about seeing results.

...but with the old timers, we have no problem judging a guy purely on newspaper clippings. "BENNY LEONARD DAZZLES IN IMPRESSIVE UNANIMOUS DECISION WIN" - Nice! I bet he'd whip Sweetpea's ass!

People also seem to assume more fights = better fighter, which is idiotic. In 200 of SRR's fights, how many of those were against actual tough competiton? I would bet the number is extremely low. How much can you really learn beating up a stiff in some smokey banquet hall? Floyd could fight a bum every 2 weeks and run his record up to 200-0 if he wanted to. Would people be impressed?

Where was part 1 - the heavyweights? you lost that and now you start this which is even more stupid.

SRR would batter the living shit out of Floyd as would Hearns and Leonard. Get over yourself.

This thread supports the observation that all glory of men will be passing away sooner or later
No matter how good, famous, rich, etc you were, someday it all will de doubted and then forgotten

And who would pay Floyd to see that shit?

For all this talk about how fighting was their trade back then, they had to box to make a dollar etc.- well that is all true, I never said these guys weren't tough and I never said these guys didn't have it tougher in their day.. But today, with ever present media and the ridiculous standard that fighters are held to, fans underestimate the enormous pressure that the boxers are under to perform.

If a boxers chooses to face a fighter that is even somewhat considered a bum or a mismatch the media is on it, the forums are on it, they are openly and constantly ridiculed at every step. If they suffer even 1 loss, struggle or minor upset their whole career may be called into question. The past warriors did not have to contend with this.

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interesting read, though I would ask for images or animated gifs to back it up
I could help you with that, I mean making gifs and such , if you'd be interested in blogging at my website

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@NVSemin
I might be :) Could I take a look at your website mate??

@greynotsoold

I was a child of the 80's and a teenager in the 90's and so it's true I have no special connection to the golden age fighters. I have boxed Amatuer most of my life and am a qualified fitness instructor. I am a big fan and have watched endless fights and enjoy analysis.

As for your statement, thinking SRR would force Mayweather to fight and hence be stopped, that has been the idea for most all of Mayweathers opponents. These opponents look fantastic against their other opponents and whilst training for the Mayweather fight. Mayweather bummifies his opponents. I think, and this is just my observations here so only my opinion, that SRR would find mostly air, become frustrated... And punch more and more air. But I could just be crazy...

Sorry I haven't the inclination to find a nice clip of May punching his opponents like the other bloke posted but there is many ;)

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Originally Posted by Max Power

@NVSemin
I might be :) Could I take a look at your website mate??

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PM sent

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Where was part 1 - the heavyweights? you lost that and now you start this which is even more stupid.

SRR would batter the living shit out of Floyd as would Hearns and Leonard. Get over yourself.

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To the best of my knowledge I left no stone unturned there, answered to every counter point and found virtually no plausible resistance worth anything more than insults. I wouldn't call that losing.

How does SRR batter the living shit out of someone... Who simply would not be there..

To put it another way... AS IF! SRR could batter the living shit out of Mayweather! AS IF!

Hearns and Leonard, I tip Mayweather personally but I will mind my P's and Q's a little more on that because for me the outcome there is not so clear. I like both fighters and think they are entirely capable. But I can SEE the gap for SRR and Mayweather in the skills, in the bodies and the type of fighting boxing was then and now and I know that it would not be nearly enough to compete with $$$.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

And who would pay Floyd to see that shit?

For all this talk about how fighting was their trade back then, they had to box to make a dollar etc.- well that is all true, I never said these guys weren't tough and I never said these guys didn't have it tougher in their day.. But today, with ever present media and the ridiculous standard that fighters are held to, fans underestimate the enormous pressure that the boxers are under to perform.

If a boxers chooses to face a fighter that is even somewhat considered a bum or a mismatch the media is on it, the forums are on it, they are openly and constantly ridiculed at every step. If they suffer even 1 loss, struggle or minor upset their whole career may be called into question. The past warriors did not have to contend with this.

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interesting read, though I would ask for images or animated gifs to back it up
I could help you with that, I mean making gifs and such , if you'd be interested in blogging at my website

---

@NVSemin
I might be :) Could I take a look at your website mate??

@greynotsoold

I was a child of the 80's and a teenager in the 90's and so it's true I have no special connection to the golden age fighters. I have boxed Amatuer most of my life and am a qualified fitness instructor. I am a big fan and have watched endless fights and enjoy analysis.

As for your statement, thinking SRR would force Mayweather to fight and hence be stopped, that has been the idea for most all of Mayweathers opponents. These opponents look fantastic against their other opponents and whilst training for the Mayweather fight. Mayweather bummifies his opponents. I think, and this is just my observations here so only my opinion, that SRR would find mostly air, become frustrated... And punch more and more air. But I could just be crazy...

Sorry I haven't the inclination to find a nice clip of May punching his opponents like the other bloke posted but there is many ;)

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Fair enough...I don't think that Robinson would be 'bummified' (and that is a good word and I will someday use it and claim to have invented it) by anything that Mayweather could throw at him. If you watch Robinson, he has, first of all,a significant height and reach advantage over Mayweather. Second, he throws a right hand to the body that would work well against Mayweather.
He would not let Floyd control the tempo and the pacing of the fight. That is the how/why of making mayweather fight. See, in between the easy, pay day fights, while he was padding his record, Robinson fought Mandell and Angot and Zivic and Jackie Wilson and artie levine and Tommy Bell. He fought a lot of very good fighters.
Canelo? he fought...? Of course he didn't know how to fight Floyd.

SRR is the best fighter ever. His speed and height advantage would be enough to overcome Mayweather. Mayweather is class but he handpicks fighters that dont have the tools to beat him. Canelo, Ortiz, Guerrero are all slow one dimensional fighters. Has Mayweather ever fought an all time great in their prime?

SRR is not as fast as Mayweather. His handspeed may be comparable but his timing and accuracy is not as sharp and his technique is far worse. He is taller though, but not so much taller that it will make a huge difference.

"Jake" LaMotta was nothing less than what you described for Money's opponents, he was just aggressive and strong, a bit like young Alvarez. Yet Money did what he was supposed to do to these guys.. Completely dominated them. Whilst SRR always had a tough time with LaMotta. That's because he was born about 50 years too early to learn how to keep a raging bull at bay!

SRR at welterweight was fighting a middleweight in La Motta.

SRR could punch a lot harder than Floyd everything else would be the relatively the same which is why I see Leonard and Hearns beating him also.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

SRR is not as fast as Mayweather. His handspeed may be comparable but his timing and accuracy is not as sharp and his technique is far worse. He is taller though, but not so much taller that it will make a huge difference.

"Jake" LaMotta was nothing less than what you described for Money's opponents, he was just aggressive and strong, a bit like young Alvarez. Yet Money did what he was supposed to do to these guys.. Completely dominated them. Whilst SRR always had a tough time with LaMotta. That's because he was born about 50 years too early to learn how to keep a raging bull at bay!

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Comparing LaMotta to Alvarez? Goodness. LaMotta fought guys like Bert Lytell, Lloyd marshall, Holman Williams and Teddy yarosz. Have you eard of the "Black Murderer's Row"? The black fighters everybody avoided? LaMotta fought and beat them all.
I don't know what you see when you watch a fight, what you have been taught or learned, but to compare Alvarez to La Motta, I don't understand it.

I can't imagine SRR not fighting Pacman, Margarito or even Tzsyu . Hell he would have fought them all in the same year probably twice. Also guys like Castillo, Hatton and even Judah gave Mayweather problems. Sugar had power in both hands a concrete chin and was never afraid to take chances. I love Money May but I feel Ray was the ultimate fighter and even entertaining outside the ropes.

There is a difference between being "entertaining" and being "technically brilliant".

Punch bags are great to watch. But everybody knows that if you put a tough punch bag in front of a much more skilled fighter they live up to that label.

I think for all SRR's size advantage... Pacquiao is faster and hits harder!

SRR has power in both hands does he? He can take great punches right? THAT'S the points you choose to highlight about him, says a lot.

I see Floyd dismantling a lot of opponents at SRR's level but I see little of SRR handling anybody close to Mayweather, or most of his opponents for that matter!

Again, there is far too much tolerance in the boxing world for the OTN ("Old Time Nutbag"!)

I make that 2-0 to Max. You funkers need to find something? He's wiping the floor with this forum with just basic common sense.

SRR defense does look shit from the footage of him. Fact. Why would anyone dispute that?

@Max Power did you say Ray LoMotta? Haha your a joke ;D Does everyone remember Roycott? I'm officially announcing Maxcott ;D

Hahaha Yes I did make mistake Cucaracha and thank you very much for pointing that out.

I must have seen Goodfellas recently lol

You should apply for the job of Forum dirt kicker, your credentials are unsurpassed!! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Hahaha Yes I did make mistake Cucaracha and thank you very much for pointing that out.

I must have seen Goodfellas recently lol

You should apply for the job of Forum dirt kicker, your credentials are unsurpassed!! :cool:

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That's Ray Liotta son :cool: come on what you playing at :confused:

Crickets ;D

@Max Power you are disrespectful to those fighters who came before. Have you heard the term hard man? Fighters from earlier generations were the epitome of the word. I wonder if you have ever been around a fighter from say the early 80s backward :confused: you can just see it in these men. Some of them are the most gentle men you will ever find outside the ring, but inside they are extraordinary ;D that was the way they lived, they would find a way to beat you, they were fighters. You really can't understand. They came up through times of oppression, with nothing. Winning was a means to an end. Put food on the table. Paid for heat. Even WladKlit realizes the sacrifices these fighters made for their families

And you ask me about my credentials :confused:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I make that 2-0 to Max. You funkers need to find something? He's wiping the floor with this forum with just basic common sense.

SRR defense does look shit from the footage of him. Fact. Why would anyone dispute that?

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are you and max power the same person? you can be honest, i wont judge you.

Cucaracha if I have trash talked a lot of fighters I really am sorry if it has offended. I might throw the term "bum" and stuff around a lot but I don't ACTULLY think that's what they are. In fact nobody who has the guts and heart to take up boxing and step foot inside a ring for any length of time can really be described in this way.

But I find it immensely hypocritical when guys like you have just done, criticise me on the acidity of some of my posts which is only a small fraction of what guys post about modern boxers ALL THE TIME (fat, lazy, unskilled, weak, no heart, over hyped) the list goes on! You may consider it tit for tat mate!

The difference is at the end of the day I consider all of these guys, modern and old, on their merits whereas I feel that you'se do not!

And atleast when I trash talk I try to give, if not empirical evidence- something statistical to lend it some weight. Your jibes on the other hand amount to little more than poking a stick!

So far I have seen a sense of humour from you and that's great but in your 40 odd posts I see no real analysis yet. Just the occasional time repeated statements that the most basic nubag uses (Wlad's chin this, weak era that) with no proof.

OK Max but you have no way to prove the modern fighters are better than those off past era's. My father was a fighter & was a very hard man. Now he wasn't a heavyweight only light-welter. Now I guarantee you at his peak he would have KTFO WladKlit. I have no beef with you but I question the legitimacy off you ever spending time with an old time fighter. Every muscle was toned so tight, the seniew so taught. You ever heard of gym wars? These guys trained as it was their livelihood. I once saw my old man ko 3 guys on a gold course. I was only a kid, but the guys hadn't waited for us to move to the next whole. One guys shot was headed straight for us, unawares to me. My dad covered me with his body taking the shot on his knee without a word. The 3 guys came through talking shit & my dad tried to explain the danger & that a child was in their sights. They attacked my father & found out the hard way what a real fighter can do. He dropped 2 guys with 1 shot each. My dad's mate grabbed my dad by both arms from behind trying to stop the fight & the 3rd guy took a shot. This broke my fathers jaw. At which point my dads mate let him go & he clocked this guy with 2 shots that to this day I can still hear the sound crunching in my ears. When my mum came to the hospital he made me tell her a golf ball had hit him so she wouldn't worry. I still don't know if she believed me but I never heard my dad make a sound, from the drive to the hospital, to the dr wiring his jaw together to him drinking his food through a straight for the next couple of months.

I have nothing against WladKlit, he is the best of this era. But he is far from a hard man in my eyes :-\

http://airstre.am/dopamine72/Nicolas%20Cage%20Laugh.gif

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Originally Posted by p4pking

http://airstre.am/dopamine72/Nicolas%20Cage%20Laugh.gif

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Nick Cage is nothing without Leaving Las Vegas :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by powerpuncher

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I make that 2-0 to Max. You funkers need to find something? He's wiping the floor with this forum with just basic common sense.

SRR defense does look shit from the footage of him. Fact. Why would anyone dispute that?

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are you and max power the same person? you can be honest, i wont judge you.

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I am merely an impartial observer.

This question is kinda stupid because none of us have seen SRR in his prime on film. I mean there is not even one film of him at ww right they all got burnt in a fire. Mayweather had trouble with semi retired Oscar and Cotto 154 not sure how he is at 160. So lets not get carried away i mean in Mayweather's prime you could argue he lost to Jlc who is not a atg. Hw thread i kinda agree with but the old 70's guys came back in the 90's and did pretty well so i think there era was pretty good don't you think guys because the 90's destroy this era we are in right now i know that much.

I saw a dream with SRR today, he told me there a lot, but all I managed to recall was that he repeated all the time: "Ya'll Must Have Forgot". He was sad