Liddell is one of the few mmgay guys who fights like a real man so let's say he got into shit with Jr.
Who wins?
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Liddell is one of the few mmgay guys who fights like a real man so let's say he got into shit with Jr.
Who wins?
Liddell by KO.
I don't buy it. Explain yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
He ain't gonna fist fight with Chavez. Liddell had a good MMA straight right but that is different.
Liddell don't have much ground game, does he?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
More than Chavez probably, and he'd have to take it to the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaLiddell don't have much ground game, does he?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Chuck knew a few submissions and could engage in some ground and pound. He just stopped concerning himself with any of it when it became easier to blast a guy out scream and then head to the post party early.
Even old Chuck pummels junior in a variety of ways. I'd chop at the legs first with kicks. Once the legs start trembling, his base is gone and he can't get his weight behind his punches. He's also a sitting duck for chucks punches if it got that far. Chuck had a uncanny knack for moving his head just enough and throwing short counters. He also got more power from corkscrewing his punches than anyone I've ever seen. Street fight just favors chucks style and his ability to end fights in quick stand up exchanges. The question is could chuck outrun the cartel guys afterwards
Liddell easily wins this. Any top MMA guy is better equipped for a street fight. And Liddell has a good wrestling background he just abandons it because he fell in love with his power. A lot of wrestlers that join MMA do that because they are really fighters at heart. Rampage, Hendricks, Jon Jones, Woodley, Hendo, etc. But lets be realistic guys and give MMA the factual credit it deserves. Liddell, who cut down to 205, in a street fight with Chavez who is probably out of shape at 205. Liddell knows Chavez is a world class boxer. There is no way he abandons his wrestling in this one. See Coutre/Toney.
I have yet to see a muthafukka go for a submission in a street fight. First reaction is to start swinging punches. Which means the Ice Man gets iced
Chuck all the way - check out UFC 1-7 etc when there really were no rules - think there was about one boxer - and he got wiped out fast -Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
even the best fighters (boxers) are at an immediate disadvantage in a street fight vs a good ufc fighter - I prefer boxing anyday and love watching it - but ask a beginner to box or train in mma to have a street fight in a year and they should pick mma
Fun to disagree with you, as soon as Chuck saw it was going bad standing up, he'd have Jr down between a bench and a building or half way under a car while he stomped on his head or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Stop trolling all the time, please.
Really, that proved nothing... except that the masses are gullible.Quote:
check out UFC 1-7 etc when there really were no rules - think there was about one boxer - and he got wiped out fast -
The Gracie family co-owned UFC and selected all opponents.
UFC was simply a tournament the Gracies created to promote their Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to drive up enrollments at their martial arts schools. It was like a PPV infomercial.
They had no idea it would ever morph into what it's become, nor that a sport would develop out of it.
Do you honesty think they'd pick opponents that they thought their man Royce couldn't beat? On their own show?!
God bless 'em, at least the fights were real, and Royce still deserves respect for fighting 3 fights in 1 night with barely any rules, no weight classes, and no time limits. But this boxer they selected proved nothing.
From 1984 when we got a 10 foot satellite dish, throughout the 80s and 1990s, I was a Boxing fanatic, and would even watch the 4 rd Just4Starters, but despite all this history, I had never seen nor even heard of Art Jimmerson until UFC 1 in Nov, 1993.
Chuck would knock him out quick fast.
This is a hair brain thread.
Chuck was very good junior college wrestler, like Tito. He would immediately take Junior down and ground n pound him.
I remember years ago there was some discussion about Chuck having a stand up fight with Tommy Morrison.
One supposed elite mma fighter who wished to remain anonymous was quoted essentially saying Chuck would have no chance.
If its some unplanned street fight chances are Chavez is waddling out of McDonalds at about 200lbs and stoned. I give Chuck the nod on sheer death fire intensity and leg kicks and the fact that no fat uninspired fat kid with muttin chops and sweet & sour sauce running down his chin will beat him.
Through the 80s and early 90s, I watched a helluva lot of Boxing and Kickboxing, but I'd never heard of ANY of these guys that were at UFC 1.
In 1993 at UFC 1, what if Royce's opponents were top pros of the day like:
Mike Tyson
Roy Jones
Gerald McClellan
Simon Brown
Julian Jackson
James Toney
Tommy Morrison
Evander Holyfield
Dennis Alexio
Don the Dragon Wilson
Rick Roufus
Maurice Smith
Ernesto Hoost
Jean-Yves Theriault.
________________
^ I'd bet on them ALL taking out Royce in any kind of fight in 1993, 1994.
I'm sure there's top Muay Thai fighters of the era could have done it too, but I'm unfamiliar with the best Muay Thai men of the era; there wasn't much broadcasted in those days.
I think there's pro wrestlers with good amateur backgrounds at the time that could have taken him.
You think even smaller wrestlers like Brett Hart or the Dynamite Kid couldn't do the job? Dr. D David Schultz ? Ravishing Rick Rude?
The legend of Greco-Roman wrestling, Aleksandr Karelin from Russia? He was in his prime at the time.
Meng/Haku/King Tonga would have KILLED Royce Gracie.
Both Kimo and Keith Hackney sure as $#!t weren't anything close to being world-class strikers nor world-class fighter/athletes, yet they sure rained down the boatloads of punishment on Gracie until eventually getting caught in a submission. Kimo actually had no martial arts background at all, Tae Kwon Do my rosy red rectum...
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
You paint a vivid picture. LOL
You should have been an English teacher like myself. Or perhaps an author. Or a Chip n Dale's dancer or an astronaut....
Kimo would have finished his ass too if not for getting half his hair pulled outQuote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
Random here...does anyone remember when Showtime did regular kickboxing shows, early 90's ??? Some guy out of Virginia(?) went pro boxer did 'ok' then back to kick boxing? I know Roufus fought pro and lost to a few guys, not sure if that was him or not? Brain scratching here. Its really revealing how many Muay thai and kickboxing types made the transition with success. Even a couple WWF guys tried.
There is no soon as. Chuck will never have a chance to consider adjusting. First solid punch Chavez lands he's knocking him out. Once your chin gets cracked it stays cracked. It never comes back. Liddell chin is beyond cracked. He wobbles every time his girl gives him a peck on the cheek. Look at the way his career ended. Those weren't referee stoppage KO's he suffered. Those were knocked the fuck out, give this muthafukka 10 minutes and lets pray to God he wakes up losses. And those weren't skilled punchers who were laying him outQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedFun to disagree with you, as soon as Chuck saw it was going bad standing up, he'd have Jr down between a bench and a building or half way under a car while he stomped on his head or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Stop trolling all the time, please.
The problem with many of the guys that you listed is that they probably weren't very keen on the rules or lack there up. I remember see a japanese wrestler front face lock a guy and while laying on his back, take about 13 brutal nut shots in a row while he was side mounted. The only rules in the original were no eye gouging or fish hooking, if i remember correctly. Royce would take big punches just hoping to get inside and grab an arm or leg or Gi. his style preserved the most energy while everyone else was trying to get on the highlight reel in a one night tournament. Biggest surprise to me was i found out last week that the guy that was kicked in the face along the cage by the dutch fighter and lost his tooth was the guy was the big dude from forgetting sarah marshal (the one that worked at the result and hugged the main character) and Hawaii 5-0.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
A couple of things would have to go right for any boxer against any decent MMA fighter. The MMA guy would have to abandon his ground game and the boxer would have to land that Sunday punch early. No matter the facts, I know some people will just never admit that a good MMA fighter is better equipped to win in a fight against a good boxer so this argument will always remain. But I would like to know how large these few put on the Coutre/Toney fight. I don't know if any hardcore boxing fans who are also hardcore MMA fans is still opining that a good boxer has a better chance than a good MMA fighter. I am hardcore for both sports and I've seen too many examples at all levels for me to be in denial any further. There are a lot of good amateur boxers who tried their hand in MMA and came to a harsh reality. A good example in the highest level is the Gustafson/Davis fight in the UFC. Early in their careers both came into the UFC as a national champion in their own sport and zero game in the opposite side of fighting. Davis was a national champ in wrestling with ouright putrid stand up. It was hard to watch him try to strike. Gustafson came in a national amateur boxing champ and his ground game was barely watchable. This fight ended in the first round by Davis with a submission. After that Gustafson immediately knew he was out of his realm and became part of Davis' team to work on his lack of ground game.
You mean the way Randy Couture didn't have any time to adjust to James Toney?Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThere is no soon as. Chuck will never have a chance to consider adjusting. First solid punch Chavez lands he's knocking him out. Once your chin gets cracked it stays cracked. It never comes back. Liddell chin is beyond cracked. He wobbles every time his girl gives him a peck on the cheek. Look at the way his career ended. Those weren't referee stoppage KO's he suffered. Those were knocked the fuck out, give this muthafukka 10 minutes and lets pray to God he wakes up losses. And those weren't skilled punchers who were laying him outQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedFun to disagree with you, as soon as Chuck saw it was going bad standing up, he'd have Jr down between a bench and a building or half way under a car while he stomped on his head or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Stop trolling all the time, please.
Toney choose Couture because he wasn't a boxer at all, Couture was a wrestler and skilled at dirty boxing against the cage.
Toney new what was comimg, had months to train and still looked like a fool against Couture. How bad would things have gone for Toney if it had been an actual street fight? He would have been a bloody spot on the ground, the same way Chavez would look.
I saw former UFC champion Tim Silvia run his mouth claiming MMA was better than Boxing. And than I saw 98 year old Ray Mercer lay him out in less 15 seconds. All it took was one punchQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedYou mean the way Randy Couture didn't have any time to adjust to James Toney?Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThere is no soon as. Chuck will never have a chance to consider adjusting. First solid punch Chavez lands he's knocking him out. Once your chin gets cracked it stays cracked. It never comes back. Liddell chin is beyond cracked. He wobbles every time his girl gives him a peck on the cheek. Look at the way his career ended. Those weren't referee stoppage KO's he suffered. Those were knocked the fuck out, give this muthafukka 10 minutes and lets pray to God he wakes up losses. And those weren't skilled punchers who were laying him outQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedFun to disagree with you, as soon as Chuck saw it was going bad standing up, he'd have Jr down between a bench and a building or half way under a car while he stomped on his head or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Stop trolling all the time, please.
Toney choose Couture because he wasn't a boxer at all, Couture was a wrestler and skilled at dirty boxing against the cage.
Toney new what was comimg, had months to train and still looked like a fool against Couture. How bad would things have gone for Toney if it had been an actual street fight? He would have been a bloody spot on the ground, the same way Chavez would look.
Sylvia never said MMA was better than boxing. In fact, Sylvia thought boxing was the best base and thought his boxing would fare the best in MMA. Sylvia was so delusional about his own boxing that he even thought he was a good boxer by boxing standards. So he agreed to fight Mercer to a stand up match inside of MMA rules. Sylvia was so confident that he agreed with Mercer that they would try to change the rules to just stand up but this was ruled not sanction(able) and so they agreed to just stand up and not change the rules. Sylvia thought he was somehow a great boxer because his MMA boxing was good. I know Miletich's team personally and some of them have trained with us. Miletich and Pulver, both who boxed enough to know, told me before the fight that they all tried to explain to him that he is making a mistake trying to stand with a former world class boxer. Sylvia was never an intelligent fighter and I heard(don't know the guy)one of his teammates say Sylvia doesn't work on his ground game much. I even heard Sylvia say that if he got taken down in an MMA fight he would just get back up. Guys like Sylvia and Tank Abbott were street fighters who kept that mentality. To be clear I think that I have seen enough that, outside of special strikers like Aldo or maybe Pettis, if the fight was stand up a good MMA stand up fighter would be less equipped to win a fight than a good boxer. That Sunday punch is a lot easier to land than to get kicked apart or kicked to sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseI saw former UFC champion Tim Silvia run his mouth claiming MMA was better than Boxing. And than I saw 98 year old Ray Mercer lay him out in less 15 seconds. All it took was one punchQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedYou mean the way Randy Couture didn't have any time to adjust to James Toney?Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThere is no soon as. Chuck will never have a chance to consider adjusting. First solid punch Chavez lands he's knocking him out. Once your chin gets cracked it stays cracked. It never comes back. Liddell chin is beyond cracked. He wobbles every time his girl gives him a peck on the cheek. Look at the way his career ended. Those weren't referee stoppage KO's he suffered. Those were knocked the fuck out, give this muthafukka 10 minutes and lets pray to God he wakes up losses. And those weren't skilled punchers who were laying him outQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedFun to disagree with you, as soon as Chuck saw it was going bad standing up, he'd have Jr down between a bench and a building or half way under a car while he stomped on his head or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Stop trolling all the time, please.
Toney choose Couture because he wasn't a boxer at all, Couture was a wrestler and skilled at dirty boxing against the cage.
Toney new what was comimg, had months to train and still looked like a fool against Couture. How bad would things have gone for Toney if it had been an actual street fight? He would have been a bloody spot on the ground, the same way Chavez would look.
Chuck kills him.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
KO Power
Multiple back belts in karate
Added with a purple belt in jiu jitsu
Wrestling champion
Multi time UFC champion and HOFer.
Liddell is taller with a longer reach.
Oh and light heavyweight in MMA is 205lbs
Yeah Liddell kills him.
Like you said Sylvia was delusional and not the brightest in the same way Toney is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jehoshaphatSylvia never said MMA was better than boxing. In fact, Sylvia thought boxing was the best base and thought his boxing would fare the best in MMA. Sylvia was so delusional about his own boxing that he even thought he was a good boxer by boxing standards. So he agreed to fight Mercer to a stand up match inside of MMA rules. Sylvia was so confident that he agreed with Mercer that they would try to change the rules to just stand up but this was ruled not sanction(able) and so they agreed to just stand up and not change the rules. Sylvia thought he was somehow a great boxer because his MMA boxing was good. I know Miletich's team personally and some of them have trained with us. Miletich and Pulver, both who boxed enough to know, told me before the fight that they all tried to explain to him that he is making a mistake trying to stand with a former world class boxer. Sylvia was never an intelligent fighter and I heard(don't know the guy)one of his teammates say Sylvia doesn't work on his ground game much. I even heard Sylvia say that if he got taken down in an MMA fight he would just get back up. Guys like Sylvia and Tank Abbott were street fighters who kept that mentality. To be clear I think that I have seen enough that, outside of special strikers like Aldo or maybe Pettis, if the fight was stand up a good MMA stand up lQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseI saw former UFC champion Tim Silvia run his mouth claiming MMA was better than Boxing. And than I saw 98 year old Ray Mercer lay him out in less 15 seconds. All it took was one punchQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedYou mean the way Randy Couture didn't have any time to adjust to James Toney?Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThere is no soon as. Chuck will never have a chance to consider adjusting. First solid punch Chavez lands he's knocking him out. Once your chin gets cracked it stays cracked. It never comes back. Liddell chin is beyond cracked. He wobbles every time his girl gives him a peck on the cheek. Look at the way his career ended. Those weren't referee stoppage KO's he suffered. Those were knocked the fuck out, give this muthafukka 10 minutes and lets pray to God he wakes up losses. And those weren't skilled punchers who were laying him outQuote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedFun to disagree with you, as soon as Chuck saw it was going bad standing up, he'd have Jr down between a bench and a building or half way under a car while he stomped on his head or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Stop trolling all the time, please.
Toney choose Couture because he wasn't a boxer at all, Couture was a wrestler and skilled at dirty boxing against the cage.
Toney new what was comimg, had months to train and still looked like a fool against Couture. How bad would things have gone for Toney if it had been an actual street fight? He would have been a bloody spot on the ground, the same way Chavez would look.
fighter would be less equipped to win a fight than a good boxer. That Sunday punch is a lot easier to land than to get kicked apart or kicked to sleep.
Believe what you want, just don't bet against an MMA guy in a street fight because once it goes to the ground, where most street fights wind up, MMA prevails unless the size difference is massive.
Mixed Martial Arts matches don't resemble streetfights at all.
I don't know why people always say MMA is closer to a streetfight; it isn't.
MMA features highly-trained, disciplined exponents of the arts with years of experience, fighting within a ruleset; but streetfighters are undisciplined, untrained, and usually under the influence of alcohol and other drugs, and are not close to being like MMA fighters.
Many of the most effective close-quarters streetfighting techniques are banned in MMA ie eye-gouging, biting, tearing at the balls...
One doesn't see anaconda chokes, flying armbars, nor gogoplatas in streetfights.
MMA has waaay more rules than pro boxing, a $#!t-load more, including nefarious UFC rule #15-A-viii, "No putting a finger into any orifice." :la:
Nor do I agree with people always repeating that streetfights always go to the ground; where does that statistic come from?! Who did the research?
Most likely that staement is based on seeing a bunch of half-drunk, untrained bozos outside a bar somewhere. A drunk guy like that goes to the ground all by himself just trying to walk a straight line, for $#!t's sake!!
And in all truth, the ground is not the place to be in a streetfight.
For $#!t's sake, NEVER intentionally take a streetfight to the ground!
.
I can see it now. MMA fighter takes street fight to the ground. Attempts arm bar or some other submission move only to get hit in the head with a bottle his opponent picked up with his free hand. Street fight over. MMA fighter in real bad shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
I remember watching one of the TUF shows that the UFC puts out. Not sure what season it was. Anyway two of the muthafukka actually get in a fight outside the house. One of the fools goes for an arm bar. He actually manages to get it locked in. The fool in the arm bar picks him up slightly, rams his head on the concrete and stomps on his face. He was out of the arm bar and other fool is leaking blood. All that ground bullshit you see in MMA doesn't translate well in a street fight