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You choose. You decide. Who wins?
@Beanflicker
@ruthless rocco
@J_Undisputed
@greynotsoold
@imp
@C.J.Rock
@Ron Swanson
@Master
Lets decide..... Once and for all! ;D
TBE vs the GOATP4P#1
WOMAN BEATER VS WOMAN BEATER
CHERRY PICKER VS CHERRY PICKER
THIS
IS
:mad: :mad: ALL OUT WAR!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad:
:bashtroll4cx4::foruml10gc5::knock_out::boxing2::j abbing::badass::beatdeadhorse:
:cheerleader:
:beatdeadhorse::badass::jabbing::boxing2::knock_ou t::foruml10gc5::bashtroll4cx4:
It's funny because I've been on a huge SRR kick this last week or so, I've gone back and watched a lot of the old fights that I haven't seen in many years.
Sugar Ray was a great fighter, a true ATG legend in the sport, and actually stayed very good even into his late 30s and early 40s!
That being said... I think he benefits greatly from the "era bias", where the "experts" pass down this message that he was the greatest fighter who ever lived until it becomes gospel that everyone recites. People watch the highlight videos, they read the great stories of victory but they don't study the old fights with a critical eye.
As far as being the greatest in-ring talent of all time... I don't buy it. I think there were better technicians in the ring - Floyd and Pernell included.
And I'll say that other than having a clear punching power advantage over Floyd, I really don't see what he did better than Floyd in the ring. Floyd was the superior talent and I would pick him to win a (probably boring) decision in a fight that would largely be a fencing match.
Sugar Ray all the way! Robinson was one of those boxers who could produce the delayed KO! It's been a long time wish of mine to see Floyd, tippy-toeing across the ring with his chin behind his shoulder and then collapsing in his own corner after absorbing a KO punch from Robinson!
I know, I'm a mean spirited little bastard! I can't help it.
Very easy answer Sugar Ray Robinson as he was a true welterweight and would smash that little shit around the ring as would have Ray Leonard and Hearns.
Floyd started at the lower weights so I have to give the wanker a break.
Sugar Ray is my favourite band.
I really hate to say it but after watching a lot of Ray Robinson footage I think he would have lost by decision to Money. I believe speed would have been the deciding factor because Ray was fast but Mayweather was faster and would have picked off Rays wide looping punches. Don't get me wrong SRR had power in both fist and could have made it real interesting up until the final bell.
May weather would win some rounds but Robinson would be too much for Floyd. He is great at throwing multiple punches at a time and they are dangerous punches (as opposed to scoring punches). He wouldn't be afraid to get hit because he has an excellent chin. Robinson fights aggressive in this fight. He doesn't let Floyd relax. Floyd would have his moments of good counters but he wouldn't throw enough punches to win a decision IMO.
And as the smartest person on the board, I'm offended that I wasn't tagged in this post.
I spend a lot of time everyday with a guy that has sparred many rounds with Floyd; he is very fast and he hits very hard when he so chooses. The thing that stands out to me is his intelligence- you don't hit him the same way twice and, if you try, he will generally make you wish you hadn't.
I think that he and Robinson, at 147, are comparable in hand speed and, at that weight, Robinson moved as well as anybody. It was after his layoff that he stood and punched more. And he was very ring savvy on his own account; through his years at 147 he fought Gavilán twice, Zivic twice, LaMotta a bunch, Servo and Angott twice, Tommy Bell twice, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Henry Armstrong. I think you get smarter fighting those guys than you do fighting Corrales, Hatton, Ortiz.
May weather does some things- the wide stance, leaning up on his left foot to jab, leaning on the pull counter (instead of moving weight on his feet)- that he gets away with because of speed and fighting dummies. Robinson is just as fast, just as smart as well as being taller and longer. Plus, he has fought guys with styles similar to Floyd's; Floyd never fought anybody even close to Robinson.
Floyd is an ATG but he really is a 140 pounder, where Ray was a big 147 pounder and likely TBE. I pick Ray to stop him. Ray was very fast, almost as good a boxer, but hit MUCH harder and had the toughness to just walk guys down and take their heart. Floyd would make him work for it, but I have Ray winning big.
I wasn't invited either and I have to say it hurts.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Agree with everything but the last sentence I refuse to give that little shit a break
Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedI wasn't invited either and I have to say it hurts.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Don't be sad. I'm not that good with names! 
It's not you, it's me ;D
If Sugar would win at 147lb he would wipe Floyd at light middle but the reality is Mayweather would never dare fight such as risky fighter and would wait for a decline, accuse him of PED or weight drain him to make 140lb.
Has to be said though, people said the exact same things about Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
I don't think Floyd would be able to because SRR wouldn't refuse a drug test like a certain Philippino did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
You really think Robinson was as fast as Floyd, and as smart as Floyd?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Watching the old tapes, I think Floyd has the speed advantage by a significant margin.
Sugar didn't have near the defensive capabilities as Floyd, and from watching a lot of his fights and juxtaposing him with Floyd, I think Floyd undoubtedly had the advantage in ring IQ. Ray's "choices" weren't always the smartest in terms of when to punch, when to stand and trade, when to defend, when to retreat, ect. The guy was obviously an elite talent, but I think he had to rely on his toughness a lot more than you'd expect a master boxer to do because he wasn't the hardest guy to hit, but he had a great chin. He didn't make adjustments as quick as Floyd, either. He was troubled by Lamotta's jab and never really found a good solution for it until the last fight.
Not saying Robinson couldn't beat Floyd, I just don't see them as equals in speed or ring IQ at all.
Then he would weight drain him, blame Arum, not enough money, not being the first name called in the fight........Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerI don't think Floyd would be able to because SRR wouldn't refuse a drug test like a certain Philippino did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Some people said that but definitely not me :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerHas to be said though, people said the exact same things about Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
SRR was kind of like Roy Jones. He relied a lot on his superior talent but wasn't necessarily the smartest boxer (although I'm not claiming that Robinson wasn't smart). Someone like pac has one way to fight and can't adjust. Robinson knows how to adjust and can dig down deep to win a match if needs be.
I am a big believer in floyds abilities but I can't see him beating Robinson.
I'll agree mostly with this. Even barring any rule, contract, promotion or other manipulations... Floyd has the defensive experience and strategy on "winning" 12 round boxing matches and benefits from evolutionized training, nutrition, medicine, supplements and other modern conveniences. He specializes in pot shotting and staying away long enough to win a 12 round decision. Boxer vs. Fighter...Floyd decisively earns a decision in the ring. Ray Robinson wins a fight to the death anywhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Good thread.
Right.
Before we discuss who is better..lets talk about their opponents.
Were half of sugar rays opponents boxers or plumbers and carpenters.
Sugar ray is a great fighter but a prime floyd would nulify and destroy rays best weapons.
Floyd is smarter and the only fighter that will walk away from the sport with half a billion (or more) in the bank..
TBE (not the best ever but the best of THIS era!)
Prime Ray was at welterweight, prime Floyd was at super feather. Does not take a genius to know who would win.
Have to agree, Floyd is BCE no question about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
*BCE=Best Cherrypicker Ever
Thes matchups never make sense. Will we discuss SRR vs Holyfield at LHW next? Maybe SRR vs Moorer.
The point is the size difference defeats the purpose of the debate.
SRR almost certainly beats Floyd, means nothing.
When you compare 2 greats like this there are a ton of factors. You cant really conclude on the available footage alone because that's at 160 for Ray and there was no 54. I have footage of his fight which I cant find right now of Ray vs Fusari at 47 and it does not look all that good and Ray looks far from spectacular. The technology of the day just does not give an accurate view. You also have to consider schedule and things like the fact there was only 1 belt
And related to that is the fact that Floyd has feasted on very similar opponents for the most part and we do have the footage to prove it. Straight ahead pressure fighters are what his style is built around. He's never faced anyone even on the same wavelength as Robinson. In fairness Ray never battled anyone near Floyd either. Well he did but that was Pep and he outweighed him by 40 pounds in an amateur bout.The Whisp was a fly at the time.
I think the intangible difference in the fight is state of mind if one had a time machine and they could meet in their prime. I'd take Robinson for that reason lack of tape at 147 or not and most likely by late knockout. I just dont see Floyd handling the pace, drive and athleticism/skill that Ray would bring.
This magical D that we see against opponent after opponent that comes straight ahead while rinsing and repeating would not look the same against guys like Robinson, Hearns, Leonard, Griffith, Napoles etc etc. It just wouldn't.
Having said that, there is a reason why Robinson never fought Burley imo and that's because of a very similar style to Floyd in many ways. I think he or rather his handlers avoided the entire Murderers row because of what was viewed as a dangerous D minded counter punching style tucked in behind the shoulder with a superior centre of gravity.
I guess what I'm saying is that Ray/promoters may not have fought Floyd had they been in the same era and I suppose the same could also be said.
For anybody talking about the weight, they probably walk around the same since there were same day weigh ins before. So the weight difference would be minimal
A lot of good points in this thread but I disagree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
If your talking about how things are against how things were, it's like apples and oranges. If Floyd fought in that era he'd likely be a slightly smaller guy not able to cut as much weight. If Ray was in this era, he'd likely be a naturally bigger guy able to cut more weight so either way Ray would be the naturally bigger guy.
That's fair enough and yeah, if one modern era fighter could be compared to SRR it was definitely Roy Jones.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Yes without question Ray would be the bigger man in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel BoogustusA lot of good points in this thread but I disagree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
If your talking about how things are against how things were, it's like apples and oranges. If Floyd fought in that era he'd likely be a slightly smaller guy not able to cut as much weight. If Ray was in this era, he'd likely be a naturally bigger guy able to cut more weight so either way Ray would be the naturally bigger guy.
Obviously in Sugar Ray you're talking about a guy who ended up at 160 and even fought at 175.
Floyd really isn't a a true WW because he doesn't really cut weight. In a lot of his WW fights he's weighed in at 147 and came to the ring at 147-150, while his opponent weighed in excess of 160 for the fight.
It's a fight that could go either way and it would be foolish to think that it would be an easy fight for either guy. I believe Floyd is the superior talent but in boxing it's not always the superior talent that wins the fight (case in point Lamotta beating SRR, or JCC and Maidana giving Floyd close fights).
When I was about eight years old in New Bedford Massachusetts there was always these Sunday outings where our parental units would stick us somewhere or with someone that knew how to entertain kids. Several of us watched boxing off these projector my friend's grandfather had. A few times the subject was Ray Robinson. I know it was a long time ago and suddenly everyone wanted to play baseball instead of watching fights period. It was a long time ago and you could make the case Ray was talented but Ray was tough as nails and Floyd is talented but Robinson was both hard and athletic. Robinson was much more experienced and most of his skills were picked up in action. There was an interview with an old Opponent of Ray's named Carmen Basilio who relieved Ray of his title and was forced to lose it in the rematch. In the Ring Magazine interview during the seventies he explained he had no like for Robinson and went on to say he didn't think Ray was talented the way everyone thought but he did say that Ray of all the boxers he ever knew, knew how and when to punch with an emphasis on how. Basilio was also well remembered by guys who passed up taking a piss after a bout with him. By the way I saw Floyd on television"s dancing with the stars and remembered Ray used to dance in clubs and television too and was paid for it. He wasn't memorable in that department but he was also hands on in everything in his lifetime.
@johnsebastianmiran I wanted to mention Ray being a better dancer but it would have came across as silly. You did it justice. :appl:
When it comes to Floyd there are these fighters who i would pick over him 80 percent of the time and that is Leonard, Hearns, and Robinson. Leonard has faced a defensive fighter who was not as good as Floyd but he is close in Benitez and did very well even knocking him out. As for Floyd he has not been with a fighter that fights like Leonard or is close to him in skill also size is a huge factor. Hearns is a huge problem for Floyed i mean no one ever out boxed Hearns he had a huge reach and height advantage on Floyd not to mention the power to end him. Hearns shin is not granite but Floyd is not on the level of power of a Leonard, Hagler, of the blade really those guys power was another level and they were bigger dudes as well. Seen some of Robinson welter fights and his speed i feel is close to Mayweathers at welterweight but a lot of Robinson's prime is unrecorded but he was a lot bigger and his reach is up there as well plus he had the power to put people in a shell he could knock people out with weirdest punches as well. Anyhow these guys are true welterweight though so it really not that fair we should be talking about guys that were in 130-140 range would be more fair and make more sense. I mean we have all these great fighters we can make match ups with that weight class makes a lot more sense then this one i would think weight is a big issue and good guy with a size advantage can go a really long way man.
I think for me, the long and the short of it is that :
A) Floyd appears to have the more impressive list of opponents, although I seriously have to question if some most of those 'names' will stand the test of time (Hatton was a 'monster' less than 10 years ago).
B) Has generally had a more successful career. Although with more control, more weight classes, more belts, more bureaucracy, there is more room for a 'career'.
C) Neither fighter has faced anything like what the other guy offered.
D) I still think Ray was naturally a lot bigger than Floyd. Although is clearly slower than Floyd and not THAT powerful but crucially punched with a mean intent AND in combination! He was tough as nails, had a longer reach and an equal jab to Floyd and so think that he was well equipped to dismantle Floyd.
E) I think there have been MANY fighters over the years who have looked better than what Ray did back then. That's just the process of time tested teaching.
F) I don't belive Floyd's isn't currently a natural Welterweight. He is a consummate professional yet couldn't make 144 against Marquez. He has obviously grown over the years so was probably once a natural light welterweight. He was starving himself to make 130.
Robinson had 130 wins before his 2nd loss. 1st loss he was outweighed by 15lbs to HOFer who he beat 5x in 6 fights.
Look at his weights on fight night compared to his opponent's at WW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Mayweather: 150
Ortiz: 164
Mayweather: 149
Baldomir: 162
Mayweather: 146 (same as official weigh-in weight)
Judah: 150
Mayweather: 148
Mitchell: 155
That's not a true WW. He really doesn't cut much weight. Most guys are going up 10-15lbs over their weight class the next day.
Doesn't or can't?
The facts point to both.
Well he obviously had to cut weight to make 130 so I assume he can and knows how to. Anyone can sweat 10-15lbs of water out of themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Maybe he's got the right idea with not cutting big weight like most guys do. He's slowed down considerably but still looks great at 38 or 39 or whatever he is.
But if you tell me a guy weights 147-150 on fight day, I assume you're talking about a small junior welterweight or a big light weight.
Look at some of Broner's weights. People say he's too small for WW, but he's come to the ring much heavier than Floyd has, even at Jr WW.
Broner: Official: 141 - Unofficial: 157
Molina: Official: 140 - Unofficial: 154
At 130lbs
Broner: 144
Ponce De Leon: 136
Mayweather didn't eat for three or four days prior to his last fight at Super Featherweight. That's not 'know-how', that's stupidity on Adrien Broner levels. He obviously was NOT a natural Super-Featherweight at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Mayweather in the same last fight at Super Featherweight, came into the ring at 137.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
7 pounds gained on to man who had starved himself for days prior to the fight.
I dunno man. I'm not a scientist but the facts suggest that some people just aren't 'gainers'. I think Floyd can't cut as much as he doesn't gain.
There's no way Floyd couldn't hook himself up with a guy who could help him cut the weight.
But weight cutting aside, even if Floyd can't cut the weight that's really irrelevant.
It's based on what you come in at fight time.
If you're not entering the ring at around 157 or more, you're not a true WW in the modern sense. And it shows. Floyd gives up big weight to almost every guy he fights.
Against Maidana, Floyd was 148 unofficially (after weighing 146) and Maidana was 165. Floyd's not a true WW.