I'd say he has to be in the top 5. He's a complete fighter with the best footwork in boxing, very fast hand speed, and decent power.
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I'd say he has to be in the top 5. He's a complete fighter with the best footwork in boxing, very fast hand speed, and decent power.
I'd say top 5 yes, though for me Loma and Rigo both have better footwork.
Probably #5 after kovalev, ward, GGG, and chocolatito. But he could definitely have a case for being higher.
Top 3-5.
How are GGG and Kovalev above Crawford? Crawford has proven he is the best in 2 weight classes. While we assume GGG and Kovalev are the best in their 1 weight class each neither has proven it by beating the tops guys. And Ward, well, he proved it years ago but he hasn't done anything since. To me Kovalev/Ward are fighting for their spot later this year. Chocolatito is number 1 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
I was thinking exactly the same. After they fight, one of them is going to be top 3, and one will go down quite a bit. Crawford is definitely top 5 , maybe top 3 , and I believe he could end up no.1 .Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonHow are GGG and Kovalev above Crawford? Crawford has proven he is the best in 2 weight classes. While we assume GGG and Kovalev are the best in their 1 weight class each neither has proven it by beating the tops guys. And Ward, well, he proved it years ago but he hasn't done anything since. To me Kovalev/Ward are fighting for their spot later this year. Chocolatito is number 1 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Now I'm not a fan of p4p rankings as there are so many subjectives and it's pretty meaningless. But one thing I would say is if Brook were to beat GGG (extremely unlikely I know.), then IMO he jumps from top 10-15 to no.1!
If actual performances are factored into this, Kovalev has to drop a spot or two.
Or do you write it off as a not so great night?
I'm still trying to figure out what defines p4p. I've defaulted to thinking it a sale tag and all for marketing now. Could go a hundred ways. Think he's a more complete capable boxer than a Golovkin but without the speed and dominating foot and hands of a Loma. Than again what they are doing is all attributed to who they are doing it against? Rigo ahead of Crawford and Canelo shouldn't even be on the list.
So that'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
1)Chocolatito
2)Rigo
3)Crawford
Or Loma ahead as well?
I can never figure out who should be at the top. It's much easier to figure who shouldn't be. For me it is almost all about what you have done. A slight adjustment for what I think you can go on to do. But it seems many think of what they think you can do first. I don't like that approach because we are all wrong from time to time. But we're never wrong about what already happened. As you said, Canelo is not anywhere unless the list is long.
I wouldn't know what the hell to do with Brook if he pulled that off. Honestly I hadn't even considered it because I don't think he stands a chance. But I will say it would be hard to move him past Chocolatito for me. Anyone moving past Chocolatito would be hard for me. That dude is legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraI was thinking exactly the same. After they fight, one of them is going to be top 3, and one will go down quite a bit. Crawford is definitely top 5 , maybe top 3 , and I believe he could end up no.1 .Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonHow are GGG and Kovalev above Crawford? Crawford has proven he is the best in 2 weight classes. While we assume GGG and Kovalev are the best in their 1 weight class each neither has proven it by beating the tops guys. And Ward, well, he proved it years ago but he hasn't done anything since. To me Kovalev/Ward are fighting for their spot later this year. Chocolatito is number 1 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Now I'm not a fan of p4p rankings as there are so many subjectives and it's pretty meaningless. But one thing I would say is if Brook were to beat GGG (extremely unlikely I know.), then IMO he jumps from top 10-15 to no.1!
Kovalev has destroyed his opposition at LHW and Stevenson won't fight him. He has proven to be an elite fighter. His last fight was less than stellar but easily the worst I've seen him and he still easily won. Even greats have bad nights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonHow are GGG and Kovalev above Crawford? Crawford has proven he is the best in 2 weight classes. While we assume GGG and Kovalev are the best in their 1 weight class each neither has proven it by beating the tops guys. And Ward, well, he proved it years ago but he hasn't done anything since. To me Kovalev/Ward are fighting for their spot later this year. Chocolatito is number 1 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Ward is tough to judge I agree, but I also agree that the winner between those 2 should become the #1 p4p fighter. Chocolatito is legit so he deserves to be up there. GGG is also legit but I think that he is the one that Crawford jumps right now.
If Crawford gets a fight with pac and beats him then it will be a toss up on the #1 p4p between him and the ward/kovalev winner. Chocolatito will drop and GGG won't be able to catch up. Loma will also start rising quickly and will try to take that spot.
What a great crop of fighters we have right now! Best in at least a decade.
1. Chocolatito
2. Golovkin
3. Crawford
Is it just because most "experts" put GGG that high or does nobody else think that kovalev is better? I think that his wins are more impressive and has a better resume. I just don't see how GGG could be ahead at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo that'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
1)Chocolatito
2)Rigo
3)Crawford
Or Loma ahead as well?
I can never figure out who should be at the top. It's much easier to figure who shouldn't be. For me it is almost all about what you have done. A slight adjustment for what I think you can go on to do. But it seems many think of what they think you can do first. I don't like that approach because we are all wrong from time to time. But we're never wrong about what already happened. As you said, Canelo is not anywhere unless the list is long.
On what basis is Chocalatito clearly number 1 then? I'm 100% asking and not trying to antagonize, as I don't follow the lower weights closely and wouldn't know how good many of his opponents were.
Still, it strikes me that most people do have him as the top guy based more on how good he looks relative to everyone else around his weight, no? If you only factor in relative attributes and skills, wouldn't a tiny guy almost always be the best boxer in the world? It's physically impossible for a reasonably sized man to be as dexterous as someone who is almost legally a midget.
Number 17. I have only seen him twice and this time out I thought he looked lazy against a very limited 1-2 fighter. James Toney would knock him out.
Seeings as this is all about the P4P I suppose someone had better post the ring magazines top ten p4p's
1- Roman Gonzalez
2- Sergey Kovalev
3- Gennady Golovkin
4- Andre Ward
5- Guillermo Rigondeaux
6- Terence Crawford
7- Vasyl Lomachenko
8- Old ginger flaps
9- Shisuke Yamanaka
10- Naoya Inque
Hard to argue with the top 7 there, I think you could pretty much re-order them any way you want and put a decent argument forward for them.
I've only seen Yamanaka once and don't think I've ever seen Naoya Inoue
Canelo shouldn't be anywhere near the top ten
Chocolatito is an unbelievable fighter
thing is tho, I think its hard to put someone in the lb4lb list who competes at such a light weight because there is so little competition
yeah he has done it at light flyweight and flyweight but how many professionals are there at those two weights put together in comparison to middle weight for example?
Well first thing is the little guys are far far better. Like you say they have far better dexterity. But about Chocolatito. He has been champion for 8 years, 15 title fights 15 victories and that is spanning 3 weight classes. Guy is only 5'3" yet in September he is moving on to challenge for a title in a 4th weightclass. And while most of the little guys hold their titles hostage in their countries Gonzalez has been a road warrior. Since his first title he has fought more in Japan than his home country, an equal number of fights in Mexico as his home country and after his fight in September he will have fought more times in the USA than his home country since his first title fight. BTW, he has fought 0 title fights in his home country. He has the accomplishments to consider him for the top. It isn't just that he looks so damn good.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo that'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
1)Chocolatito
2)Rigo
3)Crawford
Or Loma ahead as well?
I can never figure out who should be at the top. It's much easier to figure who shouldn't be. For me it is almost all about what you have done. A slight adjustment for what I think you can go on to do. But it seems many think of what they think you can do first. I don't like that approach because we are all wrong from time to time. But we're never wrong about what already happened. As you said, Canelo is not anywhere unless the list is long.
On what basis is Chocalatito clearly number 1 then? I'm 100% asking and not trying to antagonize, as I don't follow the lower weights closely and wouldn't know how good many of his opponents were.
Still, it strikes me that most people do have him as the top guy based more on how good he looks relative to everyone else around his weight, no? If you only factor in relative attributes and skills, wouldn't a tiny guy almost always be the best boxer in the world? It's physically impossible for a reasonably sized man to be as dexterous as someone who is almost legally a midget.
I mean where would GGG be ranked if he moved up to 168, won the title, defended it a few times, then moved up to 175 and won the title then defended it a few times then moved up to challenge for a title at Cruiserweight???
Agree with that because Chocolatito has done it at multiple weights for a long time and I don't think anyone should jump above him, so in hindsight he could only go to no.2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonI wouldn't know what the hell to do with Brook if he pulled that off. Honestly I hadn't even considered it because I don't think he stands a chance. But I will say it would be hard to move him past Chocolatito for me. Anyone moving past Chocolatito would be hard for me. That dude is legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraI was thinking exactly the same. After they fight, one of them is going to be top 3, and one will go down quite a bit. Crawford is definitely top 5 , maybe top 3 , and I believe he could end up no.1 .Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonHow are GGG and Kovalev above Crawford? Crawford has proven he is the best in 2 weight classes. While we assume GGG and Kovalev are the best in their 1 weight class each neither has proven it by beating the tops guys. And Ward, well, he proved it years ago but he hasn't done anything since. To me Kovalev/Ward are fighting for their spot later this year. Chocolatito is number 1 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Now I'm not a fan of p4p rankings as there are so many subjectives and it's pretty meaningless. But one thing I would say is if Brook were to beat GGG (extremely unlikely I know.), then IMO he jumps from top 10-15 to no.1!
and for the record, I really don't think Brook can win (although I think he'll be more of a challenge for GGG than people think.) and the reason I said he jumps to the top , is because beating a guy who is one of the more dominant Champions at over a stone above your weight would be a ridiculous feat.
as a comparison, we both know if GGG went directly up in his next fight to challenge Kovalev with no CW's and beat him, rightly or wrongly people would be putting him at the top of the tree.
I really don't see the point of p4p rankings , but going back on the original post, Crawford is up there and I can only see his p4p position improving.
How did Ward maintain his place? He has not been active and is at a new weight fighting poor fighters.
I have him at 4 on my list, but am considering moving him up to 3. I have Rigo and Loma solid at 1 and 2, chocolatito was pretty solid at 3, but I'm starting to feel that Crawford has more dimensions/options in the ring, and has that "special" speed that will allow him to beat much larger fighters. Ward is my 5 but if he beats Kov he will likely move to my top spot due to his overall resume. GGG and Kov are great fighters, but I'm not convinced they are as versatile or athletic as those I have listed above them. Can see a case for ranking any of those I listed in different orders though, because all have provided spectacular performances.
When Kov beats Ward how far up will he go for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonWell first thing is the little guys are far far better. Like you say they have far better dexterity. But about Chocolatito. He has been champion for 8 years, 15 title fights 15 victories and that is spanning 3 weight classes. Guy is only 5'3" yet in September he is moving on to challenge for a title in a 4th weightclass. And while most of the little guys hold their titles hostage in their countries Gonzalez has been a road warrior. Since his first title he has fought more in Japan than his home country, an equal number of fights in Mexico as his home country and after his fight in September he will have fought more times in the USA than his home country since his first title fight. BTW, he has fought 0 title fights in his home country. He has the accomplishments to consider him for the top. It isn't just that he looks so damn good.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo that'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
1)Chocolatito
2)Rigo
3)Crawford
Or Loma ahead as well?
I can never figure out who should be at the top. It's much easier to figure who shouldn't be. For me it is almost all about what you have done. A slight adjustment for what I think you can go on to do. But it seems many think of what they think you can do first. I don't like that approach because we are all wrong from time to time. But we're never wrong about what already happened. As you said, Canelo is not anywhere unless the list is long.
On what basis is Chocalatito clearly number 1 then? I'm 100% asking and not trying to antagonize, as I don't follow the lower weights closely and wouldn't know how good many of his opponents were.
Still, it strikes me that most people do have him as the top guy based more on how good he looks relative to everyone else around his weight, no? If you only factor in relative attributes and skills, wouldn't a tiny guy almost always be the best boxer in the world? It's physically impossible for a reasonably sized man to be as dexterous as someone who is almost legally a midget.
I mean where would GGG be ranked if he moved up to 168, won the title, defended it a few times, then moved up to 175 and won the title then defended it a few times then moved up to challenge for a title at Cruiserweight???
Fair enough, Estrada and Viloria are the only opponents of his I was really aware of before the fights so I just don't know how good lots of his opponents were, it seems every capable fighter at these weights holds or challenges for a title at some point though. GGG's number of title fights looks stellar on paper to, if one isn't familiar with the opposition. As far as the 4 weight thing, Gonzales has fought between 105-112 so far, if he wins at super flyweight then he'll have put on 10% of his body weight over his career, same thing a lot of guys do. A middle moving up to cruiser would be more like Gonzales fighting at featherweight, relatively, it's not the same.
I just don't buy into Loma being that high. He has been impressive for only having a few fights, but being number 2 means that he is extremely dominant. After last fight, I put him on my p4p list. He hasn't done enough to justify a number 2 spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Rigo is kind of the same. If you are knocking ward a few spots for being inactive, then rigo should also be knocked a few spots for fighting nobody good for a few years (whether or not it's his fault).
It was me that queried Ward being that high @mikeeod rates Ward as the new Hopkins. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherI just don't buy into Loma being that high. He has been impressive for only having a few fights, but being number 2 means that he is extremely dominant. After last fight, I put him on my p4p list. He hasn't done enough to justify a number 2 spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Rigo is kind of the same. If you are knocking ward a few spots for being inactive, then rigo should also be knocked a few spots for fighting nobody good for a few years (whether or not it's his fault).
It seems that he implied that Ward was the best but he just hasn't beaten anyone for a while. Am I wrong? I mean, he said that he would be #1 p4p if he beat kovalev.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterIt was me that queried Ward being that high @mikeeod rates Ward as the new Hopkins. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncherI just don't buy into Loma being that high. He has been impressive for only having a few fights, but being number 2 means that he is extremely dominant. After last fight, I put him on my p4p list. He hasn't done enough to justify a number 2 spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Rigo is kind of the same. If you are knocking ward a few spots for being inactive, then rigo should also be knocked a few spots for fighting nobody good for a few years (whether or not it's his fault).
I would rank Kov at 5 if he beats Ward. Ward has the best resume/quality wins of anyone on the p4p list, and consistent performance against top competition weighs heavily in my rankings. That being said, Ward hasn't had a big win in a couple of years, so he has fallen in my rankings. If he beats the monster at 175, he proves to me he hasn't lost his form and is back at #1 on my list. Rigo, Loma, and GGG are all similar in my eyes in that they are far and away the best in their divisions, with few top names willing to fight them. I rank Rigo and Loma above GGG because they are faster, more athletic, and more versatile. As I said before, I understand everyone's point about experience/quality of opposition, but these two are today's versions of Finito Lopez to me. Sometimes, you just know. Rigo especially is a beast and from what I hear, he regularly runs world class WELTERS out of the gym. Cuban Sweet Pea.
Thats less then 10 pounds and he moved up that many division what a joke that is we need to cut some of those out. Also no i do not agree with that being the same as mw going to cw that is over a 30 pound difference plus a bigger talent pool to go along with it. The problem with pound for pound is that no fighter would be the same if they were different size some thing has to be taken away. Not like it really matters in the end because pound for pound just there because hw would kill everyone so they need to prop up other fighters to make the matches seem more epic in a way.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonWell first thing is the little guys are far far better. Like you say they have far better dexterity. But about Chocolatito. He has been champion for 8 years, 15 title fights 15 victories and that is spanning 3 weight classes. Guy is only 5'3" yet in September he is moving on to challenge for a title in a 4th weightclass. And while most of the little guys hold their titles hostage in their countries Gonzalez has been a road warrior. Since his first title he has fought more in Japan than his home country, an equal number of fights in Mexico as his home country and after his fight in September he will have fought more times in the USA than his home country since his first title fight. BTW, he has fought 0 title fights in his home country. He has the accomplishments to consider him for the top. It isn't just that he looks so damn good.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonSo that'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
1)Chocolatito
2)Rigo
3)Crawford
Or Loma ahead as well?
I can never figure out who should be at the top. It's much easier to figure who shouldn't be. For me it is almost all about what you have done. A slight adjustment for what I think you can go on to do. But it seems many think of what they think you can do first. I don't like that approach because we are all wrong from time to time. But we're never wrong about what already happened. As you said, Canelo is not anywhere unless the list is long.
On what basis is Chocalatito clearly number 1 then? I'm 100% asking and not trying to antagonize, as I don't follow the lower weights closely and wouldn't know how good many of his opponents were.
Still, it strikes me that most people do have him as the top guy based more on how good he looks relative to everyone else around his weight, no? If you only factor in relative attributes and skills, wouldn't a tiny guy almost always be the best boxer in the world? It's physically impossible for a reasonably sized man to be as dexterous as someone who is almost legally a midget.
I mean where would GGG be ranked if he moved up to 168, won the title, defended it a few times, then moved up to 175 and won the title then defended it a few times then moved up to challenge for a title at Cruiserweight???
Fair enough, Estrada and Viloria are the only opponents of his I was really aware of before the fights so I just don't know how good lots of his opponents were, it seems every capable fighter at these weights holds or challenges for a title at some point though. GGG's number of title fights looks stellar on paper to, if one isn't familiar with the opposition. As far as the 4 weight thing, Gonzales has fought between 105-112 so far, if he wins at super flyweight then he'll have put on 10% of his body weight over his career, same thing a lot of guys do. A middle moving up to cruiser would be more like Gonzales fighting at featherweight, relatively, it's not the same.
But isn't kovalev far and away the best in his division? Ward is now trying to challenge him for that spot now, but before ward came back, he was more dominant than GGG IMO. I can't fathom him only being #5 if he beats ward.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Kov is the best in that division, but Ward is coming up so it takes a little off for me. Once he obliterates Adonis and cleans the division out, I may have to re-evaluate his position. I was impressed with his win over Hop, but Hop was 50 at the time they fought. Hard to gauge where Kov is at right now.
A fter the superior perfomance defeating Mr. Postol and exposing all his faults and not being caught on the ropes I would call him star in the making but pound for pound, he is for now in the right place for the new kid on the block. Just don't get used to sticking out your tongue too much.