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Wondering peoples opinions of the best heavyweight Haye (Valuev, Ruiz, Klit) against Joshua and Wilder now?
Id say he he beats Joshua ... Based on his speed and power and cant decide on Wilder... Just because he is that bit more wild than AJ
Although id pick AJ to beat Wilder ... Styles and fights i guess.
Thoughts?
Ps i only give haye a limited punchers vs either of them now. A live underdog... Better than molina or stiverne for sure.
I don't think Haye would have been remotely interested in fighting either of them. He certainly wouldn't have defended a title against them.
Haye wouldn’t have fought them. The Haye way
Haye is under sized to beat the bigger athletic fighters like Wlad, AJ and Wilder. Haye would have lost to Fury had they fought.
He would have called them out to bring attention to himself for like 8 years and when given the opportunity to fight any of them he would have pussed out because that's what he always did because he's a pussy.
I usually avoid calling professional fighters pussies, but David Haye is a pussy
On the other thread I was just talking about this. I reckon the best Haye would've beaten AJ and Wilder. There was some footage that came out a while ago of Haye and Wilder sparring when Haye was preparing for the Fury fight. They were pretty full on and Haye was wobbling Wilder with some Bombs.
It wasn't all one way, Wilder let Haye have some as well, but Haye didn't take a step back.
He would've been too busy for AJ, And as for Fury, Haye would've just been all over him like a rash.
But ............them days are gone unfortunately.
I think Haye of that period beats AJ and Wilder.
AJ gets caught too easily and Haye back then would land - today’s Haye could even get lucky against him.
I think Fury would maybe beat Haye of then though might have had to get up off the floor to eventually wear him Down with his size
Was Haye really that good as heavyweight than I remember?
It says more about the quality of the current crop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I like AJ, but at the moment his best win was against a 41 year old.
People always say todays crop is worse. During Haye's "prime" when he fought nobody before his wasted years when he fought nobody it was called "the worst era in heavyweight history" by most. AJ and Wilder are talented in any era. How much success they would have in different eras can be debated but they are talented without doubt.
Regards Fury - who was clearly a better fight for his bout vs Klit - but Stevie Cunningham put hi down solidly with a right hand - I think Haye takes him out even these days. I've always thought Haye is a bad matchup for Fury since Cunningham
I think a better question is would a prime Wlad beat AJ and Wilder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraIt says more about the quality of the current crop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I like AJ, but at the moment his best win was against a 41 year old.
I'd say Yes.... although with the chin you can never be certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think a better question is would a prime Wlad beat AJ and Wilder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraIt says more about the quality of the current crop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I like AJ, but at the moment his best win was against a 41 year old.
I do think AJ has space to grow more as a fighter though - and Wilder showed he has become more than jsut a banger in the first Stiverne fight.. so we might not say the same in a couple of years
Wilder has a much better jab than Joshua.
Watch AJ ..... every time he throws the jab, he brings it back to his hip level. It is not straight, and a decent fighter would make him pay dearly. Just like Schmeling did to Louis
Yeah of course he would mate, without question. Wlad is seen by some (probably not me) as top 10 of all time , so definitely top 20. AJ and Wilder are nowhere near that yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think a better question is would a prime Wlad beat AJ and Wilder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraIt says more about the quality of the current crop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I like AJ, but at the moment his best win was against a 41 year old.
and also, as much as I like AJ, he went life and death with Wlad when Wlad was 41 and been out the ring nearly 2 years, so in his prime , there's no doubt.
People can slag off Wlad for being boring and holding (cue Eric) , but it's about hit and not getting hit and it's about Winning the way that suits you best.
in defence of AJ and Wilder, I have to say , we probably haven't seem them peak yet.
Hey, we can all slag Haye off, but he went up to HW as the undisputed best CW out there. Bellew went up , probably not even as one of the top 5 CW's and he's fucking ranked in the top 10 ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
at the time it probably was "the worst era in heavyweight history" , but it's been overtaken.
in order to give balance, I said in my other reply to this thread, it has to be noted that AJ and Wilder have not peaked yet, so things can definitely change.
Haye had a laser guided right hand in his pomp and against guys his own size it was devastating. Look back at any highlight real of his, it's all right hand.
He'd struggle to land that punch against the giants of the division. Despite his relationship with Wilder and some footage of him chinning him pretty good. I think Haye loses to both of them at any time.
My point is divisions go through ups and downs and we get caught in an era thinking it has to be the worst, but there were probably worse times. I mean who was around for The Cinderella Man to become champ? Dude was as journeyman as they come. Mike Tyson’s early reign was so empty they had to bring names out of retirement. MW is only now starting to fill out with 154 guys coming up to have some depth for the first time since the early 90s. Divisions(other than WW and LW usually) go through slumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraHey, we can all slag Haye off, but he went up to HW as the undisputed best CW out there. Bellew went up , probably not even as one of the top 5 CW's and he's fucking ranked in the top 10 ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
at the time it probably was "the worst era in heavyweight history" , but it's been overtaken.
in order to give balance, I said in my other reply to this thread, it has to be noted that AJ and Wilder have not peaked yet, so things can definitely change.
It is a bad HW era, but there are 2 very talented fighters that could face off. HW there often aren’t 2. It could very well turn into AJ and everyone else, but it isn’t yet.
Firstly, the only reason they had to bring names out of retirement for Tyson is because he was going through everyone like a dose of salts. At his peak , there was simply nobody around that could even take him a few rounds, let alone compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonMy point is divisions go through ups and downs and we get caught in an era thinking it has to be the worst, but there were probably worse times. I mean who was around for The Cinderella Man to become champ? Dude was as journeyman as they come. Mike Tyson’s early reign was so empty they had to bring names out of retirement. MW is only now starting to fill out with 154 guys coming up to have some depth for the first time since the early 90s. Divisions(other than WW and LW usually) go through slumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraHey, we can all slag Haye off, but he went up to HW as the undisputed best CW out there. Bellew went up , probably not even as one of the top 5 CW's and he's fucking ranked in the top 10 ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
at the time it probably was "the worst era in heavyweight history" , but it's been overtaken.
in order to give balance, I said in my other reply to this thread, it has to be noted that AJ and Wilder have not peaked yet, so things can definitely change.
It is a bad HW era, but there are 2 very talented fighters that could face off. HW there often aren’t 2. It could very well turn into AJ and everyone else, but it isn’t yet.
Secondly, it is a bad era and you're right in that there are 2 good guys that could face each other. The only stumbling block is , as with every division in this era, that they don't NEED to fight each other. Financially, they can carry on accusing each other of ducking and wanting the fight in their own respective countries because they can still make mega bucks without each other.
It is Laughable that a fight with a 25 stone Coke addict that hasn't boxed for over 2 years , and had only one good (very good actually) win on his record, makes more money for Joshua than a showdown with Wilder does.
This is no different in any division , Thurman/Spence/Crawford , Stevenson/Kovalev , Bellew holding his CW title to ransom when he had it all spring to mind and more.
now we can quite rightly say, "Don't they want to build a legacy?" but the answer is that they want that with the most money, most hype and least risk.
In previous times , guys wanted to , HAD to fight their main rivals because that's where the money was.
Joshua's purse was probably £20 - £30 Million for fighting a late replacement in his last fight. How the fuck is that gonna help make a Wilder fight?
I hear ya, you know I’m always going on how the best should fight the best. To the point of annoyance. Even being forced to support guys I hate like Ward and Wilder because they either made or are trying to make the right fights. And arguing against guys I like because they aren’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraFirstly, the only reason they had to bring names out of retirement for Tyson is because he was going through everyone like a dose of salts. At his peak , there was simply nobody around that could even take him a few rounds, let alone compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonMy point is divisions go through ups and downs and we get caught in an era thinking it has to be the worst, but there were probably worse times. I mean who was around for The Cinderella Man to become champ? Dude was as journeyman as they come. Mike Tyson’s early reign was so empty they had to bring names out of retirement. MW is only now starting to fill out with 154 guys coming up to have some depth for the first time since the early 90s. Divisions(other than WW and LW usually) go through slumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraHey, we can all slag Haye off, but he went up to HW as the undisputed best CW out there. Bellew went up , probably not even as one of the top 5 CW's and he's fucking ranked in the top 10 ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
at the time it probably was "the worst era in heavyweight history" , but it's been overtaken.
in order to give balance, I said in my other reply to this thread, it has to be noted that AJ and Wilder have not peaked yet, so things can definitely change.
It is a bad HW era, but there are 2 very talented fighters that could face off. HW there often aren’t 2. It could very well turn into AJ and everyone else, but it isn’t yet.
Secondly, it is a bad era and you're right in that there are 2 good guys that could face each other. The only stumbling block is , as with every division in this era, that they don't NEED to fight each other. Financially, they can carry on accusing each other of ducking and wanting the fight in their own respective countries because they can still make mega bucks without each other.
It is Laughable that a fight with a 25 stone Coke addict that hasn't boxed for over 2 years , and had only one good (very good actually) win on his record, makes more money for Joshua than a showdown with Wilder does.
This is no different in any division , Thurman/Spence/Crawford , Stevenson/Kovalev , Bellew holding his CW title to ransom when he had it all spring to mind and more.
now we can quite rightly say, "Don't they want to build a legacy?" but the answer is that they want that with the most money, most hype and least risk.
In previous times , guys wanted to , HAD to fight their main rivals because that's where the money was.
Joshua's purse was probably £20 - £30 Million for fighting a late replacement in his last fight. How the fuck is that gonna help make a Wilder fight?
Luckily I hate most of the frauds(not talent wise) in the WW division because that is by far the most frustrating division.
At this point I’m forced to be a CW fan because it’s the only division all the top guys are doing right.
As for AJ, I don’t really believe the numbers, I think Hearn is paying him well but paying himself far more than AJ knows. Hearn is clearly setting up a move to HBO, just look at the deals he’s making with HBO. The only thing I think can make a Wilder/AJ fight is AJs weak viewership. He needs a fight that will get the numbers for the right deal. The UK money is going to be there for him regardless, stacking a bad deal for HBO on top is their goal. The question is will HBO do a bad deal without decent viewership before he comes over.
Nothing wrong with being a Cruiserweight fan. The division has been pumping along nicely for years.
When they upped the cruiserweight limit from 190 to 200 it basically made it like watching the heavyweight division from 30/40 years ago. Genuine physically talented specimens instead of giants that can flourish by virtue of being too big to KO and having long enough arms to score points.
Watch a 210 (?) Holyfield against Bowe and it explains why at 100-years-old he was able to emulate/equal a prime Haye in outpointing Valuev.
Very valid point about a 25 stone coke addict who hasn't boxed for 2 years, yet that is the one that Joshua/Hearn are after? Why? Dumb Ass PPV money, not boxing fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraFirstly, the only reason they had to bring names out of retirement for Tyson is because he was going through everyone like a dose of salts. At his peak , there was simply nobody around that could even take him a few rounds, let alone compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron SwansonMy point is divisions go through ups and downs and we get caught in an era thinking it has to be the worst, but there were probably worse times. I mean who was around for The Cinderella Man to become champ? Dude was as journeyman as they come. Mike Tyson’s early reign was so empty they had to bring names out of retirement. MW is only now starting to fill out with 154 guys coming up to have some depth for the first time since the early 90s. Divisions(other than WW and LW usually) go through slumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraHey, we can all slag Haye off, but he went up to HW as the undisputed best CW out there. Bellew went up , probably not even as one of the top 5 CW's and he's fucking ranked in the top 10 ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Swanson
at the time it probably was "the worst era in heavyweight history" , but it's been overtaken.
in order to give balance, I said in my other reply to this thread, it has to be noted that AJ and Wilder have not peaked yet, so things can definitely change.
It is a bad HW era, but there are 2 very talented fighters that could face off. HW there often aren’t 2. It could very well turn into AJ and everyone else, but it isn’t yet.
Secondly, it is a bad era and you're right in that there are 2 good guys that could face each other. The only stumbling block is , as with every division in this era, that they don't NEED to fight each other. Financially, they can carry on accusing each other of ducking and wanting the fight in their own respective countries because they can still make mega bucks without each other.
It is Laughable that a fight with a 25 stone Coke addict that hasn't boxed for over 2 years , and had only one good (very good actually) win on his record, makes more money for Joshua than a showdown with Wilder does.
This is no different in any division , Thurman/Spence/Crawford , Stevenson/Kovalev , Bellew holding his CW title to ransom when he had it all spring to mind and more.
now we can quite rightly say, "Don't they want to build a legacy?" but the answer is that they want that with the most money, most hype and least risk.
In previous times , guys wanted to , HAD to fight their main rivals because that's where the money was.
Joshua's purse was probably £20 - £30 Million for fighting a late replacement in his last fight. How the fuck is that gonna help make a Wilder fight?
“Playboy fighter” no more: the night David Haye came of age
5 live Boxing with Costello & Bunce
David Haye joins the podcast to look back on his thrilling win over the then undisputed number one cruiserweight in the world in Frenchman Jean Marc Mormeck, which happened ten years ago this week.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05mwx5n
GOOD INTERVIEW
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...pion-2006-2015
I think the biggest question mark regarding Haye’s chance to win is the condition of his little toe. Klit was lucky that Haye hurt his toe in that fight, otherwise Haye would’ve DESTROYED him. Seriously, just ask him (Haye). I can’t believe he is risking his health n his toe like this. Getting back on the ring??? I definitely see how Haye should be used as a barometer for greatness, he has sooooooo many ATG performances in his prime.
Thank you for your objective and unbiased opinions, as Clint Eastwood said, 'opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one'Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
You are better than that. Listen to the interview which says that Haye was a very good fighter and people can not get past "toegate".Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Realistically Haye couldnt beat a genuine class heavy. Hes too small. He couldnt land against Wland and I doubt hed land against Fury or AJ. Plus I seriously doubt he could take AJs power. He has a chance v Wilder but would still fancy Wilder in a proper fight. Sparring doesnt really mean all that much.
Steve Cunningham landed pretty damm gppd vs Fury. I can't see Haye missing providing the fight went a couple of rounds. Old haye that is.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe
Nowadays he couldn't even land on bellew for 4 rounds with 2 decent legs
I think Tyson Fury was not taking Steve Cunningham seriously and got careless. Against Haye, Fury would not have allowed him to land anything with his height and reach Haye would have got beat. Shame they did not fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1Steve Cunningham landed pretty damm gppd vs Fury. I can't see Haye missing providing the fight went a couple of rounds. Old haye that is.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe
Nowadays he couldn't even land on bellew for 4 rounds with 2 decent legs
Haye's HW career is one of the most cynical of all-time.
One could argue he's never beaten a single world class HW & that Monte Barrett is arguably he best HW he's beaten.
With his speed & elusiveness, he would have posed problems for both Joshua & Wilder, but I think he would have gone into his shell against both of them, although I would give him more of a chance versus Joshua who is slower & more predictable than Wilder.
He was great against poor opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
We saw what Haye was like when he faced a giant world class HW in Wladimir.
100% a serious Fury would not be troubled by CunninghamQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think Tyson Fury was not taking Steve Cunningham seriously and got careless. Against Haye, Fury would not have allowed him to land anything with his height and reach Haye would have got beat. Shame they did not fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1Steve Cunningham landed pretty damm gppd vs Fury. I can't see Haye missing providing the fight went a couple of rounds. Old haye that is.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe
Nowadays he couldn't even land on bellew for 4 rounds with 2 decent legs
Come on. I seriously think you've both clouded history. Fury has had ONE, yes ONE top performance in his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe100% a serious Fury would not be troubled by CunninghamQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI think Tyson Fury was not taking Steve Cunningham seriously and got careless. Against Haye, Fury would not have allowed him to land anything with his height and reach Haye would have got beat. Shame they did not fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1Steve Cunningham landed pretty damm gppd vs Fury. I can't see Haye missing providing the fight went a couple of rounds. Old haye that is.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe
Nowadays he couldn't even land on bellew for 4 rounds with 2 decent legs
Cunningham was an ex World Champ. At that time, Fury was still a relative novice, that was his step up fight. I remember them bigging it up saying how amazing it was to fight at MSG! (Albeit in one of the back rooms on a Saturday afternoon.)
Fury was right up for that fight! Say it was inexperience, say it was nerves, say it was cos his trainer wasn't allowed to be in his corner because of his drug dealing past! But DON'T say he never took it seriously ffs!
Fury was superb against Wlad, and I gave him props for that . But are we gonna give him a pass and say he never took any other fight seriously?
Why does everyone in this World get so swallowed up with hype and what they are told by "experts", rather than see what the fucking hell is in front of them!:rolleyes:
Maybe saying he didnt take it serious is a but harsh. More like he underestimated Cunningham. If he boxed and moved like he did against Wlad, or either fight against Chisora I cant see how Cunningham could lay a glove on him.
Chisora was shit, is shit, always will be shit. Cunningham had been a WORLD Champion, let's give him some respect. The reason he looked good against Chisora and not so good against Cunningham is because Chisora isn't good enough to make it awkward for Fury, whereas Cunningham is a better boxer and gave Fury more to think about. Simple as that really.
I dont know. If the Cunningham Fury faced took on Chisora Id fancy Chisora to win. Chisora is shit but he gave Pulev a good go and took Whyte in a close fight. Think Whyte is the only heavy in the top 10 of all orgs at the moment. I think Whyte is awful also but he genuinely probably is top 10 at the moment. Shows the state of heavyweight boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
Mate, the best Cunningham would beat the best Chisora. How can I be so sure? Because EVERY DECENT FIGHTER has beaten Chisora. He has NEVER beat a good fighter in his whole career.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkeyjoeI dont know. If the Cunningham Fury faced took on Chisora Id fancy Chisora to win. Chisora is shit but he gave Pulev a good go and took Whyte in a close fight. Think Whyte is the only heavy in the top 10 of all orgs at the moment. I think Whyte is awful also but he genuinely probably is top 10 at the moment. Shows the state of heavyweight boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
His best ever win was Malik Scott. And that was cos Scott mistimed the count, and Scott was pissing the fight.
I am absolutely fucking amazed that he made so much of a career out of being shite!
It's not good enough saying "he looked good against Whyte, he looked good against Vitali." He fucking lost.
But best Cunningham is at Cruiser. At heavy he has beaten noone. Cunningham, like Chisora, has only really lost to good opposition. No doubt cunningham is the better fighter but size is so important in boxing which is always underestimated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraMate, the best Cunningham would beat the best Chisora. How can I be so sure? Because EVERY DECENT FIGHTER has beaten Chisora. He has NEVER beat a good fighter in his whole career.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkeyjoeI dont know. If the Cunningham Fury faced took on Chisora Id fancy Chisora to win. Chisora is shit but he gave Pulev a good go and took Whyte in a close fight. Think Whyte is the only heavy in the top 10 of all orgs at the moment. I think Whyte is awful also but he genuinely probably is top 10 at the moment. Shows the state of heavyweight boxingQuote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
His best ever win was Malik Scott. And that was cos Scott mistimed the count, and Scott was pissing the fight.
I am absolutely fucking amazed that he made so much of a career out of being shite!
It's not good enough saying "he looked good against Whyte, he looked good against Vitali." He fucking lost.