Who is lying?

I’m starting to warm to Wilder..if he makes the fight with Fury then I think AJ does loose a bit of credibility.

The 3 best heavyweights are Fury, AJ and Wilder...which team is lying and who really wants to be the best heavyweight in the world.

I think Fury is the better boxer and can outbox the pair of them...the only thing is does he need a couple of more fights to put him in a better place.

Wilder is the most aggressive and AJ is starting to get a bit to comfortable behind the jab.

Discuss your favourite out of the three and what each one has to do to win and who you believe wants it all.

Hasnt Wilder already said the fight could be made this year?

So we have a situation where Fury said he wants it, Wilder says it , Frank Warren says it. Just need some signatures on contracts.

How easy has making this fight sounded on MSM, compared to Joshua vs Wilder being made?

They're all lying.

The #1 priority is making the maximum money possible.
Sincerely attempting to lay claim to being the best heavyweight boxer in 2018 is a sad pathetic farce. But they still have to say they wanna be the greatest boxer to sucker all the nimrod fans into buying the fights; and thereby making them the maximum money possible.

They don't want to be the greatest. They don't want fight each other. They don't want to lose. They don't want to be KO'd. They want money. Your money--you stupid heavyweight loving donkeys.

AJ is the best of the 3 in terms of being a stable champion, respectful, professional and fighting the best available.

Wilder is raw and unpredictable with exciting power.

Fury is the most unauthodox of them and could beat everyone if he was everything AJ is but he is not.

I stayed away from judging AJ, until now!

I think AJ has the better skill set, but it seems his team overplayed their hand. Fury & Wilder both accuse AJ's team of fouling up negotiations. Initially I thought it was a bit of both teams.

It also seems fundamentals are no longer the measure of a great champ. After all, a fighter who throws straight, picks his punches, sets up with the jab is somewhat predictable, no how matter how great, how fast.
On the other hand, punches coming from weird angles, throwing off the back foot, awkward movement is why Fury said this was his most difficult fight, regardless that Klitschko is miles better than Wilder.

As quick as this is about to get signed, really makes AJ's team look all the more guilty. Joshua isn't afraid, he just had a team that didn't anticipate Fury would be contacted and agree with no haggling.

Winner of this fight controls negotiations no matter how many belts AJ has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TAPugil

I stayed away from judging AJ, until now!

I think AJ has the better skill set, but it seems his team overplayed their hand. Fury & Wilder both accuse AJ's team of fouling up negotiations. Initially I thought it was a bit of both teams.

It also seems fundamentals are no longer the measure of a great champ. After all, a fighter who throws straight, picks his punches, sets up with the jab is somewhat predictable, no how matter how great, how fast.
On the other hand, punches coming from weird angles, throwing off the back foot, awkward movement is why Fury said this was his most difficult fight, regardless that Klitschko is miles better than Wilder.

As quick as this is about to get signed, really makes AJ's team look all the more guilty. Joshua isn't afraid, he just had a team that didn't anticipate Fury would be contacted and agree with no haggling.

Winner of this fight controls negotiations no matter how many belts AJ has.

---

If Wilder beats Fury, especially convincingly, he'll bring more to the table at the next go-round with Hearn and AJ. He can basically tell Hearn to go f*ck himself and the scraps Hearn was first seeking to stick Wilder with.

Yes, I agree AJ's team failed to anticipate Wilder-Fury being made so quickly and easily. Does make AJ look foolish and even a little scared, even if he truly isn't.

I'm not a Fury fan, but I'm happy he stepped up and filled the void being made by the frustrating negotiations between AJ and Wilder.

Regardless of who's lying AJ has fought stronger opposition than Wilder and Fury put together.

AJ's best five opponents to date

Wlad
Parker
Whyte
Povetkin*
Takam/Breazeale

Wilder's best five

Ortiz
Stiverne
Arreola
Duhaupas
Molina/Scott

Fury's best five

Wlad
Chisora
Cunningham
Hammer
Kingpin/Fat John

Name THREE fighters from Wilder and Fury's opposition combined who can replace names on AJ's record? I'll start with Ortiz.

Next?

Wilder would fight all of them Fenster and tried to fight Povetkin. Wilder is the hungry one of the 3. One ballooned up to the size of a brontosaurus, the other fights safety first. Meanwhile Wilder knocks people out. He is the dangerous fighter of the 3 and will overwhelm both IMO. It's like with Prime Pac, you can try and outbox him but he is going to explode and put you down several times along the way. Wilder just needs to connect and they fall.

Since becoming champ, Wilder's fights last on average eight and a bit rounds. Joshua by comparison takes seven and a bit rounds against better opposition. Yet you hear it more and more how Joshua isn't a big puncher, 'not like Wilder'. Mental.

You're opinion is cool and all Miles but whilst your "prime Pac" heavyweight "could" beat everyone the "safety first" one is actually doing it, in half the amount of contests.

Parker, Whyte and Povetkin are 50-50 with Wilder and Fury. Neither are certain to beat Breazeale or Takam either.

The best thing Wilder ever did was divert the plane back to America instead of going through with the Povetkin fight (he knew well in advance Povetkin was gonna get popped for the mexican meat)

everybody said Primo carnera could not punch and he killed two people in the ring. He was a giant. Any giant can kill somebody give him the right angle and the right punch. It is very likely that Tyson Fury could kill Wilder

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

You're opinion is cool and all Miles but whilst your "prime Pac" heavyweight "could" beat everyone the "safety first" one is actually doing it, in half the amount of contests.

Parker, Whyte and Povetkin are 50-50 with Wilder and Fury. Neither are certain to beat Breazeale or Takam either.

The best thing Wilder ever did was divert the plane back to America instead of going through with the Povetkin fight (he knew well in advance Povetkin was gonna get popped for the mexican meat)

---

It must be fair to just disagree entirely here? Parker whyte and povetkin are 50 50 amongst each other, but would have the same chance against fury or wilder that they would in rematches with Joshua, IMO. That’s not to say that Aj isn’t the top guy, I believe he is slightly, just that there is a pretty obvious top 3 and then a bit of a gulf.

Either way AJ and Eddie Hearn are the ones looking like dicks. They know that no one is really interested in their fight and the big elephant in their press conference room will be Fury v Wilder.

AJ has fought the better competition..period.

Can someone please remind me how many top ten ranked opponents that Wilder has faced?

Stirverne..Ortiz...mmmmm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gandalf

Wilder would fight all of them Fenster and tried to fight Povetkin. Wilder is the hungry one of the 3. One ballooned up to the size of a brontosaurus, the other fights safety first. Meanwhile Wilder knocks people out. He is the dangerous fighter of the 3 and will overwhelm both IMO. It's like with Prime Pac, you can try and outbox him but he is going to explode and put you down several times along the way. Wilder just needs to connect and they fall.

---

How come Wilder never fought Wlad?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gandalf

Wilder would fight all of them Fenster and tried to fight Povetkin. Wilder is the hungry one of the 3. One ballooned up to the size of a brontosaurus, the other fights safety first. Meanwhile Wilder knocks people out. He is the dangerous fighter of the 3 and will overwhelm both IMO. It's like with Prime Pac, you can try and outbox him but he is going to explode and put you down several times along the way. Wilder just needs to connect and they fall.

---

How come Wilder never fought Wlad?

---

Wlad that nearly beat AJ would have beaten Wilder.

This entire thread is just if's, buts and maybes.
Yes AJ or Hearn didn't want the Wilder fight when it was offered, for whatever reason, timing, conditions....
What we can be sure of is that it can't have been about the Money which was massive.
AJ has fought the better opposition compared to Wilder and Fury - no doubt about it.
I see ways that every one of them beats the other 2.
None of us know who will come out as the top fighter of the three until they get in the ring and fight.
Smart money would be on AJ as far as I'm concerned.

Whole lotta posts about who's better.... who's fought the better opposition.... blah, blah, blah.

Who cares. There's plenty of threads on that.

All I said was that Fury had made AJ look bad by doing something AJ was unable or unwilling to do......... come to an agreement to fight Wilder, and even in the U.S. to boot.

Joshua has become mechanical in his last few fights and lacks stamina. If Wlad at 55 can have him on the retreat for several rounds Wilder will have him on the floor again and again. He has the legs, the power, the combos. It will be messy. Who wanted that fight and who is fighting Fury first? Wlad was always chinny and that was the difference once he had gassed again. He always gets chinny when exhausted. Just too old and Toney schooled him in sparring too when he was meant to be good. Vitali was the real deal, Wlad less so.

People are constantly overrating the HWs. I could buy into the fact that AJ had better competition than Wilder, but Parker and Whyte aren’t really much better than Stiverne and Arreola. None of them are good anyways.

Parker and Whyte are prime guys with ambition, something Wilder and Fury have been kept away from.

Fury and Wilder really haven't proved they're much in front of the pack, they both have one good win which props them up, but overall their records are very weak.

Of the current top 10 heavyweights (The Ring) Fury has fought ZERO and Wilder ONE!

I'm not certain they beat any of a dozen heavyweights let alone AJ. And likewise he's not certain to beat Povetkin and a few others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Parker and Whyte are prime guys with ambition, something Wilder and Fury have been kept away from.

Fury and Wilder really haven't proved they're much in front of the pack, they both have one good win which props them up, but overall their records are very weak.

Of the current top 10 heavyweights (The Ring) Fury has fought ZERO and Wilder ONE!

I'm not certain they beat any of a dozen heavyweights let alone AJ. And likewise he's not certain to beat Povetkin and a few others.

---

I don’t necessarily disagree, but I feel the same about AJ. None of the three do I feel super confident that they beat any other top HW. I still think Wilder beats AJ but I’m not that confident. If AJ proves me wrong then so be it. I feel like all three need to do quite a bit more to prove they’re at that next level and not just a good fighter among at best average HWs

That's basically what i'm saying.

The winner of Wilder-AJ-Fury would clearly be the standout king of the heavyweights but there's so much more for these guys to prove yet. These are young guys in their prime, with constant new challengers emerging, not old guys who have proved it all already.

One good win doesn't make you a great.

Be interested to see Wilder focus through his biggest build up in career. Until Ortiz who has nowhere near the "charisma" :-X and give and take media wise of Fury, Wilder has faced last minute replacements for 2 years. Both AJ and Wilder are positioned for great momentum off spectacular wins, but I really believe if one runs the risk of overlooking next opponent it leans heavier to Wilder.

So the original question is "Who is Lying?" Answer - ALL OF THEM !!!!!! they're all full of shit, they all have their own agendas and they're all kidding the public into thinking these are mega fights. I could go through each person in the scenario individually and tell you how they're lying, but
a. I don't want to bore you all, and
b. I can't be fucked!
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter who's lying , Whatever actually happens in the ring is what we should focus on.

I think Wilder was going to smoke a jay and then smoke AJ

but Tyson Fury smokes Wilder with an uppercut in the fifth round that we will be talking about for years to come

I sure hope he doesn't miss with that uppercut because we all know where it's going to land next.

In my opinion Joshua is the best of the 3. He is the most consistent, has the wider range of attributes and has fought much better opposition than either Wilder or Fury. Despite being erratic, I think Wilder is the second best. Not in terms of technical ability, but in terms of the overall package. Fury is the most fluid, but that is as much down to style as anything else. It's easy to look light on your toes when you're facing limited threat. Against Klitschko, we saw a much more herky-jerky sort of performance. Weirdly, as time as gone by, his performance in the Wlad fight has been elevated to the point where it matches the actual achievement, which isn't quite try. The idea that he boxed Wlad's head off is an absolute myth. He literally out-landed him by around 3 punches per round. Regardless, it was a great win. One minor thing that irks me is that people directly compare Joshua's performance against Wlad with Fury's and then use it to highlight Fury's superiority. It's a weak argument because it ignores the fact that styles make fights and it also totally doesn't take into consideration the intangibles of the fight. For example, it ignores the fact that Joshua was ahead on the cards and had just put Wlad down when he got caught himself going for the finish. Fury never came close to even taking a risk in his fight so he was never likely to be put in that situation. Joshua almost has a responsibility to put on a show and the fact that he does is such a big reason for him being an absolute mega star. Anyway, my thoughts are that both Wilder and Joshua are too much for even a peal Fury. Too much aggression and neither would show anywhere near the same hesitancy as Wlad did. Wilder, in particular is a stylistic nightmare for Fury IMO. As for Wilder - Joshua, I think Joshua is the better fighter, but I think it's hard to pick against Wilder landing something so it's so hard to call. If pushed, i'd go with Wilder, but I still think Joshua is the better fighter. As I said earlier, styles make fights.

With regards to what the OP is asking with "who is lying?" to me it is blatantly obvious what Finkel and Wilder have been doing over the last 4 months or so. To the point where I would actually question the sanity of anybody who believes otherwise. Looking at the situation factually, using information that has been confirmed by the parties involved, I will try and wade through the bullshit in the clearest way possible.

I'll start with the biggest issue and that is the "fact" that Hearn/Joshua turned down $50m to fight Wilder. I don't actually know where to start with this one because there are so many holes in the whole thing. Firstly, the biggest red flag and the biggest indicator that the offer was a publicity stunt is the fact that the offer was that the money was being fronted by BT Sport, with the catch being the fight would be broadcast on BT Sport (confirmed by Warren in a recent interview with Boxing Social or Boxing Kingdom - can't remember which one. If that isn't enough to tell you that the offer isn't serious, I don't know what to tell you. Every man and his dog knows that Hearn works exclusively with Sky Sports in the UK and Joshua, at the time of the offer, still had 6 months remaining on his Sky deal, meaning he couldn't legally fight on BT Sport until December. But given that Joshua has been with SKY and Matchroom since turning pro, it was very obvious that he would be signing a new deal with them, particularly given the state of play with DAZN - He has since signed a new deal. Now this new information has emerged, it makes total sense as to why Finkel wouldn't explain where the money was coming from (he lead people into believing Showtime and Haymon were fronting the money, and Espinosa from Showtime sort of joined in without saying anything too committal). It also makes sense as to why Finkel flat out refused to send a contract or even meet to discuss the offer (because the first thing discussed at this meeting or the first thing listed in the contract would be the broadcaster/funding source). Imagine refusing to actually meet someone to discuss a deal, when the person you have offered the deal to has come back and said they're very interested. :confused:

Aside from the offer, there are plenty of inconsistencies in how Finkel apparently does business when doing business with Fury vs how he wanted to do business with Joshua. For example, he couldn't get his old head around the fact that a fight can be signed without a venue or date (this was his excuse for not signing the Joshua contract). However, he is fine with the Fury fight having no venue or date. Weird. He also tried to perpetuate the myth that fighters agree to fights before seeing a contract, yet sent Fury a contract BEFORE Fury agreed to the fight (listen to Fury's comments post Pianetta fight...something along the lines of "they called, I answered, they asked me to fight, I said send me a contract, they sent one and then I said YES"). Again, Finkel had a huge problem with sending Joshua a contract with prior agreement (although what I said earlier explains why). Furthermore, Finkel has tried to draw attention to the fact that Joshua didn't physically sign the latest contract, yet later admitted in an interview with The Boxing Voice that he knows only Hearn's signature is necessary to make the fight. Again, he knew this anyway as he was involved in the Joshua - Klitschko negotiation. Finally, he's also tried to perpetuate the myth that Hearn begged the WBA to call the mandatory. The WBA actually called the mandatory in the first week of April. By the end of June, Hearn was 8 weeks overdue on making the Povetkin fight. The WBA probably would have allowed him an extra few weeks had Finkel not done the interview with Dan Rafael where he stated that on the 26th June, he still needed 4 days to send comments back to Hearn on a contract he actually agreed to on the 12th June. He stated that the comments were minor but wouldn't divulge what they were.

At this exact point, Wilder then posted a tweet @'ing the WBA, demanding that they strip Joshua for not making the Povetkin fight. Ask yourself, is this the actions of a man who wants to face Joshua for all of the belts? Anyway, after going down the Povetkin route, Hearn then publicly declared that the previously agreed deal was still on the table, plus an additional offer for Wilder to make $5m for fighting any top 15 fighter. After declaring that there was no cut off date on the offer, Wilder changed his demands from whatever he had previously agreed to "50-50 or nothing" in a deliberate ploy to price himself out.

At this point, it is worth stating that Fury has recently come out and explained how easy it was to negotiate with Wilder/Finkel and how negotiations had taken no time at all. However, Frank Warren, in the same interview where he talked about the BT $50m offer, also admitted that negotiations for a Wilder/Fury fight had actually started in June, which by my calculations was roughly the exact same point in time where Finkel and Wilder started self-sabotaging the Joshua deal. How odd. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Regardless of who's lying AJ has fought stronger opposition than Wilder and Fury put together.

AJ's best five opponents to date

Wlad
Parker
Whyte
Povetkin*
Takam/Breazeale

Wilder's best five

Ortiz
Stiverne
Arreola
Duhaupas
Molina/Scott

Fury's best five

Wlad
Chisora
Cunningham
Hammer
Kingpin/Fat John

Name THREE fighters from Wilder and Fury's opposition combined who can replace names on AJ's record? I'll start with Ortiz.

Next?

---

Not disputing the fact that AJ's conquests look better, but the now fact is that Fury has stepped in first, albeit risky to some, to fight Wilder, who in my humble opinion is a hype job who cannot box. Fair gamble I would say.

Wilder IS a hype job, the 21Century's Michael Grant.

Grant was good until he met REAL boxers.

Fury can BOX. Make fun of him all you want for his lack of punching power. But he can box and there is no doubt that he can box his way to a victory over the ridiculous Antics and windmill swinging of Wilder

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Wilder IS a hype job, the 21Century's Michael Grant.

Grant was good until he met REAL boxers.

Fury can BOX. Make fun of him all you want for his lack of punching power. But he can box and there is no doubt that he can box his way to a victory over the ridiculous Antics and windmill swinging of Wilder

---

I've actually started to feel bad for Grant over Wilders rise ;D. He was at least fundamentally sound and knew his height and put strong punches together. Dude had a respectable run to earn Lewis and rebooted for longer than a 'bust' should have afterwards. Wilder was an Olympic medalist and Grant played hoops with next to no amatuer career.

Yep totally agree. Michael Grant takes a lot of flack, but I think Grant would smoke Deontay Wilder in 2 rounds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gandalf

Joshua has become mechanical in his last few fights and lacks stamina. If Wlad at 55 can have him on the retreat for several rounds Wilder will have him on the floor again and again. He has the legs, the power, the combos. It will be messy. Who wanted that fight and who is fighting Fury first? Wlad was always chinny and that was the difference once he had gassed again. He always gets chinny when exhausted. Just too old and Toney schooled him in sparring too when he was meant to be good. Vitali was the real deal, Wlad less so.

---

Wlad had him on the retreat because he hurt him. It happens. I could flip your argument and say that if Ortiz, at 55, and on blood pressure medication, can have Wilder on queer street, what would Joshua do to him. It's an irrelevant argument because fight outcomes change dramatically within a split second. You could also add in the caveat that Joshua fought Wlad in a voluntary defence, whereas Wilder hasn't ever shown any desire to pursue a Wlad fight at any point in his career.

As for the "who wanted that fight" argument regarding Joshua/Wilder, the notion that Wilder wants the fight right now is hilarious. For a start, the $50m offer was reliant on BT Sport having the UK rights to the broadcast, which obviously can't happen because of Joshua's SKY contract. Finkel knew this. Ignoring that, Wilder and Finkel publicly accepted terms for the Joshua fight but then backed out because they were so worried that the contract didn't have a date or venue. Strange how the Fury fight also has neither a date or a venue, yet that is suddenly now not an issue. Also strange how Finkel demanded that Hearn publicly agree to the fight before meeting or seeing a contract, yet had no issue sending a contract to Fury prior to him giving his agreement.

What Finkel wanted to happen was for Hearn to publicly accept the offer and then back out of the fight once he'd seen a contract - which he would have had to do given Sky have the exclusive UK rights to Joshua. Regardless, there is still an offer on the table for them to consider, so if they were even halfway interested, you would think they would respond to the offer. I'm sure they will in due time....:rolleyes:

As for the Fury thing. Don't make me laugh by trying to paint Fury as a threat off the back of a 3 year lay-off from fighting legitimate competition. Of course Wilder wants to fight him now. He wants an easy, profile building payday which would then allow him to claim lineage of the Heavyweight world title. It's brilliant business sense, but don't try and paint it as heroic bravery.