Name your Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time and does Usyk get in now?
1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Johnson
8. Mike Tyson
9. Wlad
10. Usyk
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Name your Top Ten Heavyweights of All Time and does Usyk get in now?
1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Johnson
8. Mike Tyson
9. Wlad
10. Usyk
Good list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Can't argue with names on that list. I'll have a think myself and post later.
Struggle where to put Louis, Johnson and Dempsey etc as we never saw them fight. Not their fault of course! And not mine either....
I think as I got older I get lost in the criteria and subjectivity that goes in all time stuff. Almost like the current p4p. In a weird way if I'm judging on something like number of belts and defenses it can much different than if ranked on best fighters defeated and competition. Off the top I'd set Usyk aside only as he's a still active fighter, maybe it's a copout but more of appreciation ;D. Can see Ali, Louis, Lewis-Holmes (switch either) but then it gets interesting. Most certainly am putting Holyfield over Frazier, Foreman and Tyson with respect to vs-vs hypotheticals imo and well, he did beat two of them. Save all the "not in primes stuff" ;D. But that's just me. Also we tend to go by what we've "lived" live and it's natural. It's like the old debates with Mick and I'm saying Greb was at the very top in different division ;D. Good times. Meanwhile as much as we read and look over records fight per fight, and it has value and wish more fans kept at it, seeing is also believing. Our eyes do not deceive as opposed to something we've just heard about. Fair to say we all wish there was much more footage of the early greats. Ironic really. Today we have 24-7 coverage and almost too much exposure to below average guys, meanwhile the Johnsons, Dempseys, Wills, or Tunney's can be sparse on film. So for what's it worth and sure this will change when I think on it more, Ali-Louis-Lewis-Holmes-Holyfield-Foreman-Johnson-Tyson-Liston-Frazier.
These are my reasons for the list and order
1. Ali – beat 3 greats Liston, Frazier and Foreman, Olympic Gold
2. Joe Louis – record 25 defences and could have been more if not WW2, 11 year reign
3. Larry Holmes – 20 defences 7-year reign
4. Lennox Lewis – undisputed, Olympic Gold
5. George Foreman - Olympic Gold, beat Frazier, regained title after 20 years
6. Joe Frazier - Olympic Gold, 6 years reign
7. Jack Johnson- 7-year reign, way ahead of his time
8. Mike Tyson – youngest champ, undisputed, 9 defences, icon.
9. Wlad – 9 year reign, 23 defences, Olympic Gold
10. Usyk – undisputed 2 weights, Olympic Gold
Duke McKenzie said Usyk deserves to be in the all-time top 20 [best] heavyweights in the world, but we don't know where he sits in that top 20,"
"Your Fraziers, Foremans, Alis - then you have Lennox Lewis, your Tysons, Riddick Bowe, your Evander Holyfields, there's a lot of guys that would've given Usyk a lot of trouble that aren't the real big names."
Spencer Oliver chimed in: "Someone like Joe Frazier, who was relentless, but was a little bit predictable... Someone like Usyk who had that skill set, and you're talking about size and all that, you have to put Usyk as a massive favourite over Frazier.
"Usyk puts his name in that argument, even with the Muhammad Ali's, because of what he's done.
McKenzie concluded: "That's what I'm saying, he's in the top 20!"
https://talksport.com/boxing/3436880...-muhammad-ali/
totally get this view ! It's very difficult - especially given his contemporariesQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
AJ, Dubois and Chisora are nowhere near an all time top ten - and Fury is his best win and that was razor thin the first time and I still say the second could have gone either way despite the four points the judges gave. We have to be thankful we got the last 20 seconds of round 9 in the first fight to give us something to differentiate them (and without it Fury would have won the first one). I would love to see a third and Fury getting KTFO now.
I get sick of other, less knowledgeable casuals, thinking Tyson in his prime would have destroyed Ali. Tyson wouldn't have got anywhere near him and would have looked an embarrassed pathetic, sorry figure by the later rounds
so for me it's
1) Ali
2) Lewis
3) Louis
4) Holmes
5) Foreman
6) Frazier
7) Johnson (basing that of course on what I've read not what I know !)
8) Holyfield
9) Liston
10) It's tough here - any from Usyk, Tyson, Dempsey, Bruno, Marciano etc etc....
And then again I think a prime Fury gives anyone on that list major problems - as I've said before imo the Fury who beat Wlad and Wilder II beats Usyk.
I can't see what Usyk can do to get himself any higher really - there's no challenges there
Top four easy to select though !
I’ll have to have a good think about it, but what I will say is ……If Usyk was British, the majority of this forum would have him in their top 5.
I'm trying to find a reason to put Usyk higher. I can't. It's the standard of opposition and comprehensive wins. Fury is the only one on his list anywhere near that all time top ten. Not his fault.
Has he knocked any heavies out apart from Dubois?
As far as boxing IQs, ring craftsmanship go though etc he's right up there.
So here goes. It could change tomorrow, but this is how I see it tonight.
Carnera
Louis
Ali
Lewis
Holyfield
Usyk
Tyson
Holmes
Foreman
W. Klitschko
And undisputed to me is just politics. We all knew he was better than Dubois. Yeah Lewis did it but again politics allowed it to happen - then not for however many years.
Evander Holyfied was undisputed at 2 weights and beat Mike Tyson as well as an old Holmes.
However, he was inconsistent as champ and lost to Bowe, Moorer and Lennox during his best years.
I think Evander would have won a great fight against Usyk at cruiserweight but lost to him at heavyweight.
Good thread. :)
Well... emboldened by Primo's list with Carnera at #1 (proving there are no wrong choices here) ;D ... I hereby submit my own list (complete with inaccuracies and biases) ;D
1. Ali (slam dunk choice)
2. Louis (ditto)
3. Lewis (In his peak as dominant as any fighter out there. Avenged both of his knockout losses.)
4. Foreman (A beast. Beat many fighters by fear alone. Knocked out some impressive opponents. Came back years later to regain the title.)
5. Wlad (He could be boring as hell. But like Foreman, beat many fighters by fear alone. After Louis, the longest reign as defending champion.)
6. Frazier (Only lost to the very best: Ali and Foreman. But he beat Ali in The Fight of the Century in 1971.)
7. Marciano (Didn't see him on any lists, but deserves a spot. Something to be said for retiring undefeated.)
8. Usyk (Tough to ignore. He's beaten the best the division has to offer, which admittedly isn't a golden era of heavyweight boxing.)
9. Tyson (Another beast. Brought many fans to boxing with his style. At his peak could arguably beat anybody.)
10. Holmes (YEP... I'm biased. Never liked this guy cause he talks way too much. First class whiner. Was lucky to come in as Ali was wasting away as a fighter. He's lucky I put him in at #10.)
muhammad ali
joe louis
jack johnson
george foreman
joe frazier
larry holmes
lennox lewis
sonny liston
oleksandr usyk
evander holyfield
i left off sam Langford, harry willis, joe jeanette, sam mcvey who could all make top seven
I was watching some videos of Sonny Liston since he is on the list of a number of posters. He sure was a beast and had 84-inch reach with a ram rod jab that would knock you off your feet.
Sonny influenced George Foreman to act in an intimidating manner when he became champion.
Liston had links to organised crime and was harassed by the Police; some incidents led to him being charged and suspended from boxing for a short time. Sonny was labelled an unsavoury heavyweight which definitely led to a delay in receiving his chance to fight Floyd Patterson for the world title whom he annihilated twice to win and defend the title. His peak years were 1958-1963.
Ali certainly beat many great heavyweights, and Sonny was one of them. Should he be penalised for that?
Usyk would have a nightmare handling him.
I have to say think I'm being a bit harsh on Fury of late. He's just pissed me off the last three years or so.
He was on his way towards that top ten himself and a win over Usyk would get him back there if it happened.
Let's be honest he also arguably has the greatest comeback story in boxing/sport of all time.
If we were being critical of Usyk and we have to be if we are trying to debate the best heavyweight champions in history, then he has had only 8 heavyweight fights whilst the others were mainly professional career heavyweights.
Best win would be beating the undefeated Fury (who has not always looked the best when facing opponents, he did not take seriously).
Usyk has had only 5 defences, and his career could end up in a worse state than it is now.
So Dubois, AJ and Fury x 2. Then Chisora.
Who's the other??
you can pick apart all their records, muhammad got lots of gifts, larry got beaten by a light heavyweight, lennox got iced by two fringe contenders, joe louis had the bum of the month club, jack avoided some of the other black fighters, et cetera, et cetera. oleksandr moved up & basically cleaned out the top guys in the divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
I dunno, the hypotheticals and subjectivity is always magnified in atg list as stated earlier. I mean sure 'old Holmes' but also old Holmes who had just schooled Mercer off his destruction of Morrison. A gold medalist Mercer too ;D;). Mercer had just dropped his belt rather than fight Moorer. Thought he had hit the easy lotto with old Holmes, oops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
To each their own of course. But while Moorer will forever be known as the man who shared Foreman history while blinking at the lights, or was detonated by Tua later in career, or a certified terror train at lt hvy who never got his big shot, he wasn't completely crap either. Probably fought the most disciplined fight of his career with Holyfield behind his power jab...and it still should have only been a draw if not for the asinine round 2 scoring. Every single hvy has had their own inconsistency. I mean both Lewis and Wlad were poleaxed at their top and honestly imo by guys lesser than a top form Moorer. Lost to Bowe, then beat him. Lost to Moorer, then beat him. Lost to Lennox, then improved much and gave a very competitive fight. Respect to Lewis. I look at level of consistent top comp moreso I guess. Not running up standard defenses of belts we also dismiss as fans monthly. That's how I see Holyfield big picture. We can asterisk guys with points in respected careers, pick apart records as has been said. But Holyfield has the distinction of defeating and competing with 4 of the named greats on many fans ATG lists. If Tyson makes the cut for some. And people forget it was Tyson who got out of not 1 but 2 contracted fights with Holyfield prior to finally meeting. And I still say Holyfield beats him at any point ;D. That's always been an unwarranted shadow over him I think.
Usyk-Holyfield would have been absolutely fantastic, and half inclined to agree. Can see Usyk mobility, upper body and rapid jab giving Holyfield hell. But also see combination punching and forced exchanges plus for Evander. Also think that as far as his much respected heavyweight run, Usyk with Fury or AJ or Dubois has not faced the same mental make up and overall resolve he would with Holyfield. Honestly two of the hardest wills and minds to compliment the division last two eras. We'll never know just great to have Usyk in company and almost feels like torch passed.
I did say that my opinion could change from one day to the next, and looking at this, I feel that I may have put Foreman a little low for what he achieved, but the basis of that was that while he achieved incredible things, you go through his record and the guys he beat weren’t stellar apart from one or two exceptions (the way he destroyed Norton and Frazier).Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo Carnera
And if I use the same mindset, then maybe I have Usyk a bit high because none of the guys he beat are anywhere near this level INCLUDING FURY! Of course, that’s not his fault. But it just shows how difficult it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliI dunno, the hypotheticals and subjectivity is always magnified in atg list as stated earlier. I mean sure 'old Holmes' but also old Holmes who had just schooled Mercer off his destruction of Morrison. A gold medalist Mercer too ;D;). Mercer had just dropped his belt rather than fight Moorer. Thought he had hit the easy lotto with old Holmes, oops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
To each their own of course. But while Moorer will forever be known as the man who shared Foreman history while blinking at the lights, or was detonated by Tua later in career, or a certified terror train at lt hvy who never got his big shot, he wasn't completely crap either. Probably fought the most disciplined fight of his career with Holyfield behind his power jab...and it still should have only been a draw if not for the asinine round 2 scoring. Every single hvy has had their own inconsistency. I mean both Lewis and Wlad were poleaxed at their top and honestly imo by guys lesser than a top form Moorer. Lost to Bowe, then beat him. Lost to Moorer, then beat him. Lost to Lennox, then improved much and gave a very competitive fight. Respect to Lewis. I look at level of consistent top comp moreso I guess. Not running up standard defenses of belts we also dismiss as fans monthly. That's how I see Holyfield big picture. We can asterisk guys with points in respected careers, pick apart records as has been said. But Holyfield has the distinction of defeating and competing with 4 of the named greats on many fans ATG lists. If Tyson makes the cut for some. And people forget it was Tyson who got out of not 1 but 2 contracted fights with Holyfield prior to finally meeting. And I still say Holyfield beats him at any point ;D. That's always been an unwarranted shadow over him I think.
Usyk-Holyfield would have been absolutely fantastic, and half inclined to agree. Can see Usyk mobility, upper body and rapid jab giving Holyfield hell. But also see combination punching and forced exchanges plus for Evander. Also think that as far as his much respected heavyweight run, Usyk with Fury or AJ or Dubois has not faced the same mental make up and overall resolve he would with Holyfield. Honestly two of the hardest wills and minds to compliment the division last two eras. We'll never know just great to have Usyk in company and almost feels like torch passed.
Too much gets said about Holmes being "old" when he fought Tyson. He had just turned 38. There's been at least half a dozen heavyweights who have been champion at 38.
Also, I'm not always good with dates. But according to BoxRec, Holmes beat an undefeated Ray Mercer in '92, a full four years after getting KO'ed by Tyson.
So Tyson beating up on an "old" Holmes doesn't hold much water.
BTW... Tyson obliterating Holmes still remains one of my favorite fights of all time.
Get what you're saying but 38 back then was much older than it is now if you in turn get what what I'm saying.
In many sports you're seeing athletes competing into late thirties and beyond.
"oh my god he's won the title back at 32" or words to that effect said by Harry carpenter when Ali kayoed foreman.
i get what you're saying, also need to consider some of these older fighters were fight fifteen or more rounds & fighting multiple times a year. if someone fights four times a year now we are amazed at the activityQuote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKO
I am a big Evander Holyfield fan and therefore can critically analyse his career in terms of being a top 10 heavyweight champion for this thread.
I will not be critical of his wins against unmotivated Buster Douglas, getting knocked down by Bert Cooper or defending his titles against “old” Holmes or Foreman and hollow Tyson.
I will be critical against losing twice to Bowe, weak chinned Moorer and Lennox Lewis during his best years as heavyweight champion. That should not make the top 10 list, far too many inconsistent fights to be in the top 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark TKO
"Whiny" Holmes beat an undefeated (and heavily favored) Ray Mercer a full four years after having been KO'ed by Tyson.
He couldn't have been THAT washed up and "old" when he fought Tyson.
He just got obliterated, a knockout I happily played over and over many times.
I do not want to continue to pick apart Holyfield heavyweight career as champion but when he beat an "old" and "whiny" Holmes, Larry said he was strong but not that skilled compared to the fighters he fought when he was at his peak.
This implied that he would have beaten Evander as was not as good as some of the boxers he faced when he was champion. Holyfield relied on his fitness, activity and conditioning to beat his opponents but he could be out boxed by Bowe, Moorer and Lewis. Usyk would have that chance at heavyweight less so at cruiserweight.
Incidentally @Spicoli, Mercer was dumb for falling into the traps that Holmes set him when he lost to him. Also Mercer beat Morrison should not mean that much of a victory when Tommy was going to get knocked out in a round by Bent. :)
do lennox next, should have been dq'd against mike acey & the oliver rematch should have really been a no contest, two knockout losses when he was at or near his prime
Oh but Lennox destroying Rahman after getting called gay on TV was sweet. ;) :cool:
He was very slack with Rahman. In hindsight it's baffling that he was so ill prepared for that fight and pissing about filming oceans 11 the week before.Quote:
Originally Posted by TIC
The Mccall knock out was lucky and Lewis should have been allowed to continue. Odds were against him surviving that round but a champion on his feet should be given the chance.
I mean it's Larry Holmes, what do we expect him to say when discussing himself from the holy mount of Sir Larry ;D. Absolutely no idea about hypotheticals but a former champ can have plenty of opinion on competition over the decades. But I struggle to see a tip top Holyfield being in awe or not measuring up as "good" as a Norton, Witherspoon or Shavers. Let alone a Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb or David Bey :-X. No secret Holyfield was no friend of a steady mobile jab. Bowe sat in, swapped and even Lewis sat in and exchanged when he had to especially in rematch where their jabs were fairly even up. No one, save for Lewis I tbh, was really boxing top Holyfield's ears without getting sucked into exchanges, taking a wobble or dropped in order to maintain ring real estate. That's what happens when the very best face one another, multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Wouldn't say Mercer was dumb. Outfoxed, outboxed and out experienced vs Holmes, absolutely. His biggest mistake along with so many fans pre Holmes was believing his own headlines and savagery fresh off beating Morrison literally senseless and damn near fatal. It was assumed by mass majority all he had to do was attack and overwhelm an aged 'old whiny' Holmes and Holmes would get ground down and cave. Ironically Mercers best moment was very early on when he was jabbing with Holmes and hurt him badly. Mercer always had a killer short power jab when it was on and his head was in it. The Morrison fight is a good example of Ray being far more than just a iron chinned tank. The man could box and he though it was 4,5 rounds he was setting traps for young all offence Morrison from the very start. You could see it, and Ray knew it. To this day people saw that fight and said it was Morrison outboxing Mercer...I never saw that. Exact opposite really. You say the win didn't mean much buuut it did mean enough to win him a championship. Which seems to be the most important factor in ranking ATG heavy's for some :-X. It also would help propel Mercer, regardless of Holmes, into two superb fights/wars with both Lewis and Holyfield. Back to back. And sure Morrison got iced by Bentt a couple years later...but that didn't stop Lewis from facing such a 'used up' fighter another two years later. The irony is that it was after Lewis was splattered by McCall and during his own 'rebuild'. That's the thing about 'what ifs' and a magnifying glass put on records. It's an across the board thing fans do. But at some points it becomes tearing into the very same fighters we rank as the very best or ATG. Round and round it goes.
and btw Holyfield beat Mercer cleaner and wider than Lewis ;D:)
Louis
Ali
Johnson
Dempsey
Foreman
Liston
Lewis
Usyk (hopefully not me showing recency bias there)
Frazier
Marciano
Honourable mentions to Tyson, Jeffries, Holmes too