Long and Short rhythm?

[WayneFlint]

Hello all, been a bit busy recently to get online but theres a topic that has been cropping up here and there during my boxing study's but have yet to find a detailed description or instructions on what it is and how to use it, the best info ive found about rhythme is in boxings 10 commandments where it refers to tyson as short rhythme and ali as long rhythme. can anyone help educate me on the principles of rhythme for boxing?

[Chris Nagel]

I think that short/long rhythm is somewhat a vague subject. It could've just the same been called x/y rhythm, as it seems more related to the direction of movement rather than rhythm.

Rhythm is made up of the time that it takes to do different movements, be it a slip or a punch. It also refers to the time that is between techniques.

In boxing it's an important concept to grasp in order to be more effective at landing punches as well as avoiding them. Say for instance, if you were to throw punches at a steady tempo, it'd become predictable. That's why you'd want to throw it at different speeds, including stop and go. At times it's just like a change-up pitch in baseball. Having variety in your speed and rhythm can keep your opponent guessing.

It's the same thing when you're moving, slipping and weaving. If you're moving your head back and forth like some kind of human-metronome your opponent is easily going to figure out where your head is going to be. This is especially true if your head is tracing the same path over and over again.

Floyd Mayweather talks about rhythm in his interview with Smitty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo-The changes in the speed of his movements and timing is more important than just him being fast.

Just try to get a feel for it in your movements, especially when you're shadow boxing or hitting the bags. You can break down certain moves into beats, kind of like dance steps or drummer-beats. Apply it to different techniques, ie. feinting, punching as well as defensive moves.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

hmm trying to remember what I got taught about this.

[WayneFlint]

Thanks chris i was thinking myself the movements could be timed and it was the movements that bugged me in boxing 10 commanments it seems hes sort of transfering most of his weight back forth and side to side and recently ive come into realisation that doing that makes you slow in everything you do ive been trying to re-train myself to lift the front foot and push off with the rear to move forward and vice versa like scrap said in one of the threads and ive found my balance is spot on, im much faster much more in control and have been using counters i never had time for before while sparring and then when i saw this in 10 commandments i thought i had to start all over again hah, ive heared alot about breaking boxing down into a rhythm and it makes sense when you think about it the other day i managed to slip accidently a punch im not really sure i saw because my partner has a very predictable rhythm and doesnt change tempo much, the knack i think is to know when the dangerous beats are coming and i believe this is how you get to slipping and countering more shots rather than simply trying to see which shot is coming or trying to draw the shot, if you put it all together tells, draws, tempo, feints it makes a fighter quite predictable. thanks for replys missy and chris

[WayneFlint]

Oh yeh and it wont allow me to view the video in my country im afraid chris, thanks again anyway mate ill rep you when ive spread some around >.<

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Thanks chris i was thinking myself the movements could be timed and it was the movements that bugged me in boxing 10 commanments it seems hes sort of transfering most of his weight back forth and side to side and recently ive come into realisation that doing that makes you slow in everything you do ive been trying to re-train myself to lift the front foot and push off with the rear to move forward and vice versa like scrap said in one of the threads and ive found my balance is spot on, im much faster much more in control and have been using counters i never had time for before while sparring and then when i saw this in 10 commandments i thought i had to start all over again hah, ive heared alot about breaking boxing down into a rhythm and it makes sense when you think about it the other day i managed to slip accidently a punch im not really sure i saw because my partner has a very predictable rhythm and doesnt change tempo much, the knack i think is to know when the dangerous beats are coming and i believe this is how you get to slipping and countering more shots rather than simply trying to see which shot is coming or trying to draw the shot, if you put it all together tells, draws, tempo, feints it makes a fighter quite predictable. thanks for replys missy and chris

yes! one thing you can try and probably have done without thinking is slip in to your partners rhythm, you will be able to read them better. This of course then means you can predict and break their rhythm. If you're not doing it with thought and you slip in their rhythm then YOU will be the one getting hit
Part of that whole fighting their fight.

You can work at this on bags and with a live partner.

[Andre]

You can think in: one, two , 1, 2 , 1, 2, or 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3. they are time signatures like drumming . And to break their rhythm or fit into it snuggly you think an's in between the counts and go and move in on the an.

1 an 2 an 1 an 2 an. <thats a 2/4 signature 1 an 2 an 3 an 1 an 2 an 3. < 3/4 siganture Faster 1an2an3an4an.< see that a 4/4 signature

Make the space in between count. Distance plays a big part too. If two are fighting mid range and one breaks free and steps back in on the an and goes nose to nose thenthat original rhythm has been broken.

To disrupt them from continuing their timing on you ,you break your routine and the distance you are fighting at.You could move back 4 inches and deal with only their arms then move back in as a disruption , or you break away totally switch and move in. You could even drag one of their legs forward with your inside foot as you move back and see what happens to their timing , off their balance!
You push an elbow of theirs across their centre line or out the other way and their timing will change too.

[WayneFlint]

Thanks andre thats helped a lot i think, so when i have them timed and say theyre using a fast 1-2-3 type rhythm then i make the tempo faster in my head with a 1 an 2 an 3 an and adjust my tempo to hitting on the an's, does that sound like the idea?

[Andre]

Well if your going to break their rhythm up, then you stop their forearms on the an's and hit them off it instead.
Block on the an's or attack on the an's seeking gaps. Same in footwork you can catch their foot before it lands with yours if you move yours in on their an count. Just a form of possible disruption in some cases, nothing else.

i JUST THINK IT HELPS IF YOU CAN PUT SOMETHING INTO TERMS THAT YOUR MIND CAN COMPREHEND FIRST SO THAT YOU CAN TRAIN IT INTO YOUR MEMORY AND REFLEXES.
I dont even know if thATS CLASSED AS SHORT AND LONG RHYTHM TO BE HONEST?

Countering is beating them to the draw (simultaneous block and attack) or hitting up the spaces they create or following their arm back to the goal as it retracts; when you think about it all those land on the off beat or the an's between their rhythm.

[WayneFlint]

Thanks andre and yes i think i understand now i tend to find myself sort of unconciousely doing this by moving out of range on their attack and then quickly moving in on them with my own attack i think either on the an or just before it is when i attack back, its not bad but i think maybe predictable i feel and i realise a good boxer will see right through what im doing and i realise you can build on this principle and probably use it in other ways rather than the simple rock back and come back in way i sort of use it for, any idea on training techniques to get this going with other movements rather than just the rock back and move back in im using now?

[Andre]

IF you block with your forearms or elbows you can hit in full contact range without even moving.

You can also hit off the same side you just blocked with faster than blockig with one then throwing the rear becuase the one you just blocked with has less distance to travel so its faster ad you can score.(you wont be doing any damage).

Or if over the top of a jab with your fist vertical in a jab and your elbow down, you can block and strike if you are in opposite stances so you go across his jab from the outside to his head simultaneously blocking and striking.






If you block with your gloves or your wrist area anywhere from their
forearm to their glove you have to move in to be able to make any contact.

So by dancing the correct timed dance you can deal with them out of contact range or in contact range and that can upset rythm too.
Yours as well as theirs if you dont know what your doing and havent soaked up the limits of what you can and cant do with both distances with bridging them both on attack and in defense.

Sometimes remaining in contact with an arm you just blocked as you move in, can be a big disruption in that process too. Follow it and strike off it,or follow it home and move it so his balance is compromised for a fraction of a second.
Depends on if you are in side his retracting arm or outside it. Its down to your other arm against his other arm then. but you got the control, if you move his retracting arm towards his centre or up he cant throw the rear clean but you still have to be ready for it after you land.
Thats more for disruption of his timing and gaining you the next real blow off a full inside position than just gaining a point.

[Greig]

With fighters like Floyd, Pac, Mosley, Sweet Pea Whitaker and Meldrick Taylor back in the day - these guys are on another plane when it comes to speed.

Those guys are talking in sixteenth notes Andre...

1 ee an a 2 ee an a 3 ee an a 4 ee an a


In life, rhythm is everything. As a great jazz guitarist once told me when I was studying music and REALLY STRUGGLING with my timing: "Greig, we've all got a pulse don't we?"

[Andre]

With fighters like Floyd, Pac, Mosley, Sweet Pea Whitaker and Meldrick Taylor back in the day - these guys are on another plane when it comes to speed.

Those guys are talking in sixteenth notes Andre...

1 ee an a 2 ee an a 3 ee an a 4 ee an a


In life, rhythm is everything. As a great jazz guitarist once told me when I was studying music and REALLY STRUGGLING with my timing: "Greig, we've all got a pulse don't we?"

You know its a good point ,you cant think that fast.
It has to be drilled in, specially in the fly weights etc. Heavies can be easier to time and same when its the end of the fight and the last rounds are occurring. You have to pick when to get away with some things and its mostly on feel and instinct. After your mind understands it you have to forget it so that your mind has the space within to react without forethought. Muscle memory and instinct=being in the zone.