Punching Power Mechanics/Waist Pivot, hip rotation help.. Can you provide some help?

[mdef303]

Let me simplify this.. Does the power in the punch come from the waist pivot, which then results of a pivot of the ball of my foot (left foot for left shots) (right foot for right shots).. or

Does the power start from the ground up, the pivot of the foot, which in turns the waist pivot and body turn.


I think the power comes from the waist pivot, which automatically pivots the right foot, or left foot, depending on the shot you throw. And letting your feet be like springs, to absorb the weight transfer and to maintain balance doing so.


Some say the power is generated from the foot pivot, im not so sure if this is the case. I think that the power comes from a quick pivot of the waist past the centerlin, which in results happens the foot pivot, acting as shock absorbers for the weight transfer.

What is your thought regarding the foot pivot when throwing shots...
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[jms]

As I've been taught, the foot pivot exists to facilitate the power being generated by the hips. Turning the foot itself mostly affects the range of motion for the hips and the ability of your muscles to work properly. The reason the foot has to turn is because for let's say a straight right the back foot has to be rooted and drive the movement while the left foot has to stabilize and help pull the left side of the body around. If the back foot doesn't turn the hips can't turn fully, and also the leg can't be in an optimal position to dig in without damaging the knee (try it, you'll feel it unless the foot is so far behind you have no weight on it). Turning the foot lets your glutes and other major muscles power the movement by pushing through that foot into the ground, which is what turns the hips.

So I agree with you that the power comes from the hips turning, and then to take that a step further the power from your hips turning comes from the muscles in your legs being in the best position to generate force in the way you need. In a way the power is coming ground up, but that power in the ground is really starting in the legs and being pushed through the feet then through the hips.

[mdef303]

As I've been taught, the foot pivot exists to facilitate the power being generated by the hips. Turning the foot itself mostly affects the range of motion for the hips and the ability of your muscles to work properly. The reason the foot has to turn is because for let's say a straight right the back foot has to be rooted and drive the movement while the left foot has to stabilize and help pull the left side of the body around. If the back foot doesn't turn the hips can't turn fully, and also the leg can't be in an optimal position to dig in without damaging the knee (try it, you'll feel it unless the foot is so far behind you have no weight on it). Turning the foot lets your glutes and other major muscles power the movement by pushing through that foot into the ground, which is what turns the hips.

So I agree with you that the power comes from the hips turning, and then to take that a step further the power from your hips turning comes from the muscles in your legs being in the best position to generate force in the way you need. In a way the power is coming ground up, but that power in the ground is really starting in the legs and being pushed through the feet then through the hips.

So in actuality, when pivoting your waist to generate power, results in the foot pivot to help bring about full rotation of the waist, which in turns for optimal power. In theory, the power from the waist turnings comes from the muscles in my legs...

I try to focus on my waist pivot more than anything, so in theory, without paying close attention, the power is actually generated from the ground, pushed through my feet, through my hips... I feel when I dial, and focus in on the foot pivot first, my hips become stiff, not relaxed, and I'm not able to get a good rotation as if I were to focus in on my waist pivot itself. Without realizing, I do feel the power in my legs on my waist pivot, and I can understand why the foot pivot is an aid to really turn my hips through the shot. I can really feel when the foot pivot happens after I torque my waist, I feel I can really drive the shot with my hips. The pivot gives me range of motion in my turn my whole body, resulting in great power. I understand what your saying. Good form my friend, thanks.

[mdef303]

Taken from this thread.. http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ore-power.html

Quote Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post

he wasn't getting much into the punch from his hips or his legs. He was drawing it back and throwing it from his arms and shoulders.
Freddie falls into a trap here in his way of explaining things, and it is a common one in boxing and it confuses a lot of people and leads to things being taught improperly. I am not saying he is wrong in the way he teaches it- I have seen him work at his gym in Hollywood and know people that he trained when he first went on his own and was working out of a gym in La Habra. But the explanation is wrong and conveys the wrong sequence for weight transference.
The pivot of the right foot does NOT generate the power in the right hand; it is a result of how that power is generated. The same is true of the left hook; the power does not come from the turn of the left foot, not if you are doing it right. Doing it that way puts the weight behind the punch, which makes it a push. You need to get the weight turned in front of the fist, creating a whip-like effect and concussive force.
To throw a hook, then, the first movement is to get your weight onto the rear leg. You use the muscles on that side of your body to violently wrench your body around. The first place this manifests itself is on the front foot; the violent torquing of the hips causes the foot to pivot inward. The next place it shows is in the shoulders, which turn fully over the rear leg. The fist itself never moves- it does not draw back- until the bodily tension whips it through the target.
If you watch the video, that guy is throwing the hook off his front foot. The weight never gets back to the right leg. This would show up, profoundly, if he were to try and string together punches, another right hand, for example.
My suggestion to you would be this: Exaggerate your movements until you find the feel. Throw your straight left- you are a southpaw, correct?- and really get your weight onto your front foot, then turn through it. You will feel the force I am talking about. Then get your weight back and crank off a hook. You'll find the feeling.
This is very much how Julian Jackson punched. I read an interview with him in KO magazine in the late 1980s where he talked about how he was taught and I stole liberally from what he said.

Is a nice read.

In the left hook, the ball of the foot, through the left leg muscles, getting the torque to pivot the waist, which leads the weight shift to the back foot..

I'm sure it will come with practice..

The power do come from the ground up, but I believe it is key to focus in on the waist pivot which the foot pivot is the aid, and the accelerator, to shift the weight.. and complete the full rotation of the hips..

[mdef303]

I just came back from the gym and I started to talk to the coaches about this topic and they explained that everything happens in unison. starting from the legs, through the hips, the pivot of the waist through the shoulder in a one fluid motion, so it is safe to say that the ball each foot acts as power socket, ignigting the power of the legs, hips, waist pivot, in one motion.

I found this site..

Basically everything you need to know regarding power punching

The power do come from the floor, as your feet has to be planted, powering from the floor, through your legs, the swivel of the hips, and twist at the body in one fluid relaxed motion is true punching power.

Its safe to say, that power is generated from the floor up. And the foot pivot is the result of the swivel of the hips, that torques the waist and body..

More or less if you just imagine yourself hitting with just your body, and forget your arms are there, merely a vehicle of force, you will start whipping your punches easy, relaxed, and smooth. This is all in a twist of the waist over your straight leg while pivoting, of course the your legs are the source of power.. the ball of the foot is the hinge.. The faster the twist, the greater the velocity,.... deliver over the lead foot gives the edge in power... like the hinge principle... my upper body as a door, a gate, slamming over the lead foot while pivoting..

everything should be relaxed as well.

[SugarBoxing]

Go on pal

Some of my ideas:

Jack Dempsey's explosive straight punching technique | www.SugarBoxing.com

[Chris Nagel]

We've had some very comprehensive threads on the subject:
The Straight Right: http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ight-hand.html
The "Trebuchet" Hook: http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post418948

One of the key points besides the hinge-principle is to maximize the amount of weight transferred from one side to another through stance a la the old-timers such as Benny Leonard et al. On the other hand, a fighter with a contemporary squared-up stance, and worst one who leans onto their front leg would not be able to transfer much weight for their straight right as their right would become more of a pushing punch, e.g. Joe Frazier.

Getting your weight behind your punch is different than for instance if you'd hold out your elbow and then shift your weight over your left-leg land your elbow against a heavy bag. Rather than forgetting that your arms are there, think of them as the last link in the chain of punching movement. This goes back to what Grey was saying, i.e. the order, and the 'delay' mentioned in the aforementioned thread by Thomas. The hook is slung.

[mdef303]

Much thanks to all of you.

Thinking of my arms is the last in the chain in events is a nice pointer, as the the shoulder. I feel that the hips and shoulders should be relaxed as well, to provide a full rotation, if the hips are stiff, no rotation will occur. This however should not exclude the power coming from your legs.. I think its best describing it as, generate power from your legs, to twist your waist.. this will automatically bring your hips into the punch, and shift the weight.. if you can put your hips into the punch with them being relaxed, and torqueing your waist.. you should be good to go..

1 Legs = power
2 Swivel of the hips over the left leg (that causes the the foot pivot)(hips relaxed)
3 torque of the waist(over the left leg) through the center line causing your body to shift weight
4 arms relaxed, and snap the punch

the faster being able to do this in a fluid motion is sweet science.

[mdef303]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgGv5h_xin8

This is pretty good actually. He describes "find your half sit" "Find your balance".. It seems like when you do this, it puts you in optimal position, I tried it, and when I imagined a weight hanging from my head through my butt, and went into a half sit, and basically engaged my hips where they can swing relaxed, shift my weight from leg to leg.. . This improves your speed as well as power. Good stuff...

All welcome with their own personal pointers.

[Scrap]

Power comes from the Floor, its the floor that moves you. Poweris the balancing act between the Floor and Head coxxys and feet.

[SugarBoxing]

Can anyone provide some links to where I can read about the chain principle in boxing?

I think Jack Dempsey does not discuss it really

Does Haislet Edwin discuss it?

[Andre]

http://www.amazon.com/On-Fencing-Ald.../dp/188452804X

http://books.google.com.au/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y

Booktopia - Ringcraft, The Deluxe Edition by Jim Driscoll, 9780981020211. Buy this book online.


I dont think he mentions it,but you can add things up here. Great free book with some interesting info.

http://archive.org/details/Boxing

[StrictlySP]

Hi mdef303,
You wrote:

I think that the power comes from a quick pivot of the waist past the centerlin, which in results happens the foot pivot, acting as shock absorbers for the weight transfer.

You've touched upon a segment of what generates power. In totality, power comes from a kinetic chain that starts its sequential torque from the ground and progresses up the "chain" (in nanoseconds), which then concludes with the follow-through and associated retraction. To better appreciate this, what follows below is most of a post I wrote back in Dec 2007 on "The Straight Right Hand" thread that delineates this more thoroughly.

Take Care,
Lito

"Before, I delineate the specific body mechanics I advocate/teach for the rear straight punch (I'm left-handed, hence the generic terminology), I just want to establish what I'm going for with this punch and, in fact, all punches--effectiveness and efficiency. The bottom line to that end is focused POWER. Actually, power is a misnomer when it comes to fighting. FORCE is what we want. Force equals mass X acceleration. As such, in practical terms, it's all about putting as much body weight into/behind the punch as possible and doing so as fast as you can without sacrificing the body mechanics to achieve that objective.

Ah, though I'm a lefty, since the majority of those who'll read this are most likely right-handed, I'll delineate my biomechanical description as a righty.

STRAIGHT RIGHT HAND to the head
1. From an orthodox stance, push off the ball of your right foot and simultaneously take a short 30 to 45 degree "trigger step" to the left with your left foot.

2. Now, as you push off and take the trigger step to the left, transfer approximately 90 percent of your body weight over your left leg/foot and recognize/designate the left side of your body (i.e. left foot, left knee, left hip, and left shoulder) as being the "door hinge" side which serves as the axis of rotation for the punch. To promote this weight transfer and emphasis over the left leg, "dig" your left foot into the ground. NOTE: there should be a slight bend in your left knee (one trainer I know says the left knee should be relatively straight to establish and maintain a better "door hinge" axis) and your head should be directly over your left foot.

3. Immediately rotate your right hip (and only your right hip at this time) counterclockwise (to square up with your lead left hip) and pivot on the ball of your right foot counterclockwise allowing your right shoulder (which should be lagging behind for a millisecond) to recoil back like a slingshot retraction (myotatically stretching your right pectoral muscles in the process).

SUMMARY for #1, #2, and #3: Step BEFORE hip rotation, head over left foot, body weight over left foot, left side of body (foot, knee, hip, shoulder) is the "door hinge" axis, right hip-whip rotation/right ball-of-foot pivot, right shoulder recoil.

4. With your right shoulder recoiled back, and your right hip rotating a millisecond ahead of it, use this right hip counterclockwise rotation to generate and explosively propel your right shoulder in whip-like/slingshot fashion. As you are in the transitional process of doing this, simultaneously "shrug" your right shoulder convulsively (i.e. like a forward shoulder shrug barbell/dumbbell exercise) in a counterclockwise circle (i.e. going forward). Now, use this "hip-then-shoulder whip" generated momentum and sequential torque to explosively "shoot" your right fist straight to and through your opponent's jaw.

SUMMARY for #4: Hip-whip rotation BEFORE forward shoulder shrug and slingshot action, shoulder drive BEFORE hand propulsion, explosively "shoot" your right fist into and through the target.

5. As you are explosively "shooting" your right fist straight ahead to and through your opponent's jaw, simultaneously pull-in/retract your left elbow back to your left ribcage in a short, quick, convulsive manner. By doing this, you add to the acceleration of your right hand shooting forward to and through the target. It's a "push-pull" type of action similarly analogous to hand pedaling a bicycle with both hands. Keep in mind, depending on whether you are leading off with the straight right hand from a guarded position, sharpshooting, initiating a combo, being in the midst of a combo, or finishing off of a combo, your left hand should be up or pulled back to the jaw during this convulsive left elbow retraction.

SUMMARY for #5: Explosive "push-pull" action with the hands/arms.

6. As you are "shooting" your right fist towards the target, adhere to the "power line" (an imaginary line from shoulder to fist which optimally allows you to put your shoulder behind the punch) by purposefully not flaring your right elbow up and out. Instead, keep your right elbow pointed down as much as possible without interfering with the freedom of movement.

7. At point of impact with the target--ideally the jaw, your right arm should be approximately 3/4ths extended (i.e. your right elbow should still be slightly bent) to allow follow-through. Upon contact, "gouge" down into and through the target with your right fist (as if you are doing an inverse shoveling movement). This will be easily facilitated through the forward shoulder shrugging movement of your right shoulder. NOTE: if your right arm is fully extended at impact, the force you generated is dissipated with no follow-through potential. So, make impact while the right elbow is still bent.

8. Strike into and through the target and follow-through with an elliptical retraction of your right hand back to guard position (i.e. right hand by right cheek/jaw area).

SUMMARY for #6, #7, and #8: Adhere to the "power line;" striking through, "gouging" down, and "sinking" into the target upon contact. FOLLOW-THROUGH and retract right hand back to guard.

9. In certain instances, depending on whether or not your straight right hand is starting off or finishing a combo or is executed as a single shot, you can add even more body weight and "follow through" into your punch by allowing your rear right leg to "slide/glide" forward after contact with the target. Remember, most of your body weight should be centered over your left foot/leg, so this right leg movement will feel natural.

SUMMARY for #9: At certain times, "slide/glide" the rear right leg forward after contact.

*While I've broken down the body mechanics in a step-by-step process, be cognizant that the sequences are taking place either simultaneously or sequentially in millisecond spaces of time.

**RELAX. Focused relaxation promotes acceleration, acceleration promotes force, force promotes knockout "power." Don't tense up any unnecessary muscles. Being "smooth" helps being fast...

***Keep in mind, your chin should be tucked and your left hand up (or in the process of being pulled back) protecting the left side of your jaw during the execution.

****Upon contact, have your right fist in a horizontal palm-down position or a 45-degree inward-diagonal position NOT in a vertical fist position (which inhibits natural arm movement and pectoralis/latissimus dorsi/trapezius muscle recruitment/involvement in the punch).

*****The striking surface/contact point is subject to debate. Some like Jack Dempsey advocate the three-knuckle striking area (i.e. middle, ring, and pinkie finger knuckles), while others support the traditional two-knuckle striking area (i.e. index and middle finger knuckles). I'm more inclined towards a "three-knuckle" landing, but to me it's a moot point in the chaos of battle. Three knuckles, two knuckles, heck, with all the positional and movement variables that exist, I'm happy when my punches land solidly irregardless of which particular knuckles actually make contact. Anyway, play around with it and decide for yourself what you want to focus on.

******From initiation to completion, which will be very, very rapid, be sure to exhale in a short, sharp manner. Exhalation during execution is extremely important in contributing to the generation of force among a myriad of other beneficial things.

*******Finally, you should have violent intention when executing this or any punch. This mindset adds even more "depth" to the strike.

I'm betting some of you have noticed that I've deviated from the traditional "straight-in" (or "straight-out," depending on how you use the terminology)/straight-back" straight-line trajectory that is the gold standard when throwing a straight right hand. As you can surmise from my description, I do follow a straight-line trajectory from initiation to contact, but immediately thereafter, I "gouge down" into and through the target in a slightly downward elliptical trajectory as I follow through and retract my right hand back to guard position in that same path. Why did I change and do this? Well, even thought the traditional way works fine, this way works better. The short answer is that this movement produces additional torque that the other way doesn't which allows me to put even more body weight into my shot. Moreover, this movement facilitates slightly longer contact into and through the target increasing the amount of force absorbed by my opponent.

In regards to the simultaneous "push-pull" action I described in #5, this is really nothing new per se. It is something done naturally within the context of executing a straight right hand in the traditional sense. However, it is a movement that is often not accentuated conscientiously. Give it a try. You'll see that it does make a difference with torque."

[mdef303]

Much thanks for the tips, keep em coming!

[jms]

One of the key points besides the hinge-principle is to maximize the amount of weight transferred from one side to another through stance a la the old-timers such as Benny Leonard et al. On the other hand, a fighter with a contemporary squared-up stance, and worst one who leans onto their front leg would not be able to transfer much weight for their straight right as their right would become more of a pushing punch, e.g. Joe Frazier.

Getting your weight behind your punch is different than for instance if you'd hold out your elbow and then shift your weight over your left-leg land your elbow against a heavy bag. Rather than forgetting that your arms are there, think of them as the last link in the chain of punching movement. This goes back to what Grey was saying, i.e. the order, and the 'delay' mentioned in the aforementioned thread by Thomas. The hook is slung.

I've been taught that weight transfer isn't always the key to power. For punches like hooks and overhands, it adds more to the punch than it would for uppercuts or even straights. To be clear, what I'm saying is weight transfer will generate power in any punch but it isn't always the best way to do so. I believe there are distinct mechanics for each type of punch.

For uppercuts, they get the most power with almost no weight transfer. It's mostly hip extension without too much straightening of the knees, which relies on the weight being rooted on the corresponding foot.

Straights benefit from some weight transfer, but not enough to lose connection with the driving foot. If the driving foot (right foot for a right straight) is too far behind or doesn't have enough weight on it then there won't be enough connection to the ground. Plus shifting too much weight on the straight sacrifices distance because it makes your head come closer to the opponent than it needs to. Basically, they're more twist than shift.

Hooks get the most from weight transfer because they travel in a circular direction, which is the same as the trajectory of the hips. Overhands too, because the weight shift combined with dropping of the weight puts the shoulders in place to let the punch arc over a shoulder or glove.

Having a stance that starts with the weight back isn't only to facilitate maximum weight transfer, it's to make sure the rear foot is in position to generate power and the hips/shoulders have room to twist. Plus the head is kept at a safer distance. That's my understanding at least.