Top 100 All-Time Greats: Post your list here...

[holmcall]

I did this in one of my books, but anyone who posts a subjective list opens himself up for a savage beating. It is virtually impossible to get it right. If I rate SRR first, I'll get 20 who list Ali first. If I list Willie Pep second, I'll get 40 who say SSR should be second and so on. It's a death of a thousand cuts. If I rate Foreman infront of Holmes, I get brutalized and visa versa.

And righfully so!

Touche!

[asero]

i had some minor revision..see the 1st post in this thread

[DaxxKahn]

Tough list to make for sure...I will give my top 25 but thats about it..

1. Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Harry Greb
11. Sam Langford
12. Billy Conn
13. Joe Louis
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Salvadore Sanchez
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roy Jones
18. Ricardo Lopez
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. Sandy Saddler
21. Ray Leonard
22. Barney Ross
23. Kid Gavilan
24. Jack Johnson
25. Wilfredo Gomez

Keep in mind I base all my choices on prime condition of the fighters, I do not use world titles won etc as a part of my opinion (EG Guys like Langford would be punished because they were never given a shot at the titl;e due to color)...

Though maybe some spots might be off by 1 or 2 places either way It is pretty , much my complete list of the top 25

[Fenster]

Tough list to make for sure...I will give my top 25 but thats about it..

1. Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Harry Greb
11. Sam Langford
12. Billy Conn
13. Joe Louis
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Salvadore Sanchez
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roy Jones
18. Ricardo Lopez
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. Sandy Saddler
21. Ray Leonard
22. Barney Ross
23. Kid Gavilan
24. Jack Johnson
25. Wilfredo Gomez

Keep in mind I base all my choices on prime condition of the fighters, I do not use world titles won etc as a part of my opinion (EG Guys like Langford would be punished because they were never given a shot at the titl;e due to color)...

Though maybe some spots might be off by 1 or 2 places either way It is pretty , much my complete list of the top 25

Why Hopkins above Jones?

[OumaFan]

I'd have Hopkins above Jones too, its easy to just write off the end of Roy's career but I think Hopkins has passed him over their last ten or so fights.

That's not the reason I was gonna post, mainly I was just going to say something about Bert Sugar not really knowing what he talks about.

[CGM]

Nice list Daxx. Some minor quibbles, but nothing serious. Nice to see Arguello up there high on the list.

But seeing as how people are talking about Hopkins, I would tend to rate Hagler above Hopkins because Hagler's entire reign was as undisputed champion, was it not?

[DaxxKahn]

Tough list to make for sure...I will give my top 25 but thats about it..

1. Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Harry Greb
11. Sam Langford
12. Billy Conn
13. Joe Louis
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Salvadore Sanchez
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roy Jones
18. Ricardo Lopez
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. Sandy Saddler
21. Ray Leonard
22. Barney Ross
23. Kid Gavilan
24. Jack Johnson
25. Wilfredo Gomez

Keep in mind I base all my choices on prime condition of the fighters, I do not use world titles won etc as a part of my opinion (EG Guys like Langford would be punished because they were never given a shot at the titl;e due to color)...

Though maybe some spots might be off by 1 or 2 places either way It is pretty , much my complete list of the top 25

Why Hopkins above Jones?

Longevity...In his 40s he is still a P4P #1 fighter...Also Hopkins has a better level of comp....Hard to even say when Hopkins prime is/was because he is still elite...

Jones...Titles from 160,168,175, and HW best wins are over

Tate, Toney, Hill, Hopkins (A very new to the game Hopkins not the version he turned out to be).... (his bout with McCallum was a waay past his best McCallum)

Jones also ducked guys...Admittingly he ducked Calzaghe in his LHW reign stating he had too much to lose for him to travel and fight him

Hopkins best wins...

Glen Johnson (Ist to do so) Felix Trinidad, De La Hoya, Eastman (when Howard was worthy), Wright, Pavlik, Daniels,

Hopkins beat tha man to KO Jones 1st time out...He has never been Stopped and he has never been dominated in one sided fashion he has never lost a fight by more then 3rds on any scorecard....

11yr Middleweight champion, 4yrs as undisputed MW champion, former LHW ring champion

IMO Jones in his prime may have been the most gifted athlete in the game when he fought at 168 to this day I don't think P4P he could have been beaten by anyone in history but that time was short, Jones spent a lot of soft time at LHW...his last outing was embaressing.....KO'd back to back

I had to give Hopkins the nod easily for me...just my opp though

[DaxxKahn]

Nice list Daxx. Some minor quibbles, but nothing serious. Nice to see Arguello up there high on the list.

But seeing as how people are talking about Hopkins, I would tend to rate Hagler above Hopkins because Hagler's entire reign was as undisputed champion, was it not?

You have a point but Hopkins is also a 2 division champion no?...He also has wins over more ATG fighters....Plus the 11yr reign of Hopkins, 4 as Unsidputed champion.....

If we were going simply in the MW division I give it to Hagler..IMO he is the greatest MW of all time...Then Monzon then Hopkins...I had to go overall....

If not the case I would have to put SRR above Hagler because he beat him......

That is why I added to the bottom of the post I do not go by title reigns or length as champion...does it factor in a bit well yes of course it does but I have to go by opinion on ability at their best, the length of time their prime lasted etc...many factors go into the list beyone achievements...

If it was by title reigns alone like I also mentioned guys like Langford who were better then many would ever know never had the shot at the title because of color and the fact they were ducked...

Jack Dempsey admittingly stated he used the color barrier to not face Sam because he was scared to death of him in the ring

[Fenster]

Do you mean Roy ducked Michalczewski? I don't think Roy ducked Calzaghe.

Now Daxx, don't get annoyed, all your points are perfectly reasonable BUT

Comparing their best wins - you have marked down Roy's win over Hopkins because he was "new to the game" ... yet you give Hopkins extra credit for being the first man to beat Johnson. This is a bit inconsistent.

McCallum was past his best. But then surely it's only fair to mention Oscar was fighting way above his natural weightclass.. this goes for Tito, Wright and Pavlik too.

Apart from that - Good point about Hopkins never being stopped or dominated. I don't agree he should rate above Roy, but there's no right or wrong with these lists just opinion - as you said.

[DaxxKahn]

Do you mean Roy ducked Michalczewski? I don't think Roy ducked Calzaghe.

Now Daxx, don't get annoyed, all your points are perfectly reasonable BUT

Comparing their best wins - you have marked down Roy's win over Hopkins because he was "new to the game" ... yet you give Hopkins extra credit for being the first man to beat Johnson. This is a bit inconsistent.

McCallum was past his best. But then surely it's only fair to mention Oscar was fighting way above his natural weightclass.. this goes for Tito, Wright and Pavlik too.

Apart from that - Good point about Hopkins never being stopped or dominated. I don't agree he should rate above Roy, but there's no right or wrong with these lists just opinion - as you said.

Just opinion Mate but the fact Roy declined to fight Calzaghe was HIS words not mine....It was before the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight and Roy said he wanted winner...When asked why he mnever went to fight Calzaghe all the years he was LHW champ and Calzaghe was calling his name he stated...

"Truth,,,There was too much for me to lose at the time...I was not going to go in his country and risk my P4P title and fight in another country now its different he has what I want I don't have what he wants"

I swear on a book of bibles

As far as the other points (My point with Hopkins not being his best)....Bernard was new to the game period...Jones had a long amateur career, Olympic experience...Hopkins had only been at it a few years...The man had virtually no amateur experience...He learned the sport while in prison...Not exactly the best gym is it?

DLH, chased Hopkins,,,,Small MW yes but in truth he is actually bigger then Hagler..5'9 1/2" 75" reach...DLH is 5' 10 1/2"...Tito is 5'11" and walked around over the 160 mark and had been campaigning at MW was even a champion with 2 title defenses

[kingfrnk]

Nice list Daxx. Some minor quibbles, but nothing serious. Nice to see Arguello up there high on the list.

But seeing as how people are talking about Hopkins, I would tend to rate Hagler above Hopkins because Hagler's entire reign was as undisputed champion, was it not?

Bhop held the WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO and the Ring all at once i believe. the only thing he did different from Hagler was become LH champ. I would personally rate Bhop above Hagler though.

[JonesJrMayweather]

Do you mean Roy ducked Michalczewski? I don't think Roy ducked Calzaghe.

Now Daxx, don't get annoyed, all your points are perfectly reasonable BUT

Comparing their best wins - you have marked down Roy's win over Hopkins because he was "new to the game" ... yet you give Hopkins extra credit for being the first man to beat Johnson. This is a bit inconsistent.

McCallum was past his best. But then surely it's only fair to mention Oscar was fighting way above his natural weightclass.. this goes for Tito, Wright and Pavlik too.

Apart from that - Good point about Hopkins never being stopped or dominated. I don't agree he should rate above Roy, but there's no right or wrong with these lists just opinion - as you said.

Just opinion Mate but the fact Roy declined to fight Calzaghe was HIS words not mine....It was before the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight and Roy said he wanted winner...When asked why he mnever went to fight Calzaghe all the years he was LHW champ and Calzaghe was calling his name he stated...

"Truth,,,There was too much for me to lose at the time...I was not going to go in his country and risk my P4P title and fight in another country now its different he has what I want I don't have what he wants"

I swear on a book of bibles

As far as the other points (My point with Hopkins not being his best)....Bernard was new to the game period...Jones had a long amateur career, Olympic experience...Hopkins had only been at it a few years...The man had virtually no amateur experience...He learned the sport while in prison...Not exactly the best gym is it?

DLH, chased Hopkins,,,,Small MW yes but in truth he is actually bigger then Hagler..5'9 1/2" 75" reach...DLH is 5' 10 1/2"...Tito is 5'11" and walked around over the 160 mark and had been campaigning at MW was even a champion with 2 title defenses

i think what roy said was "I was pound for pound champ and undisputed champ, why should I have to go fight him when I was the best", which makes sense. In every sport the champ, better, or favorite gets home field advantage. The calculated move by calzaghe to all of sudden come to the states to fight both roy and Bhop after they seemingly lost their grips on their respective divisions seems too convienent and also proves that he was willing to come to the states all along, whereas neither of them have left the country since becoming champs. calzaghe sat over there and waited for them to "look" beatable then came over...

[CGM]

Nice list Daxx. Some minor quibbles, but nothing serious. Nice to see Arguello up there high on the list.

But seeing as how people are talking about Hopkins, I would tend to rate Hagler above Hopkins because Hagler's entire reign was as undisputed champion, was it not?

Bhop held the WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO and the Ring all at once i believe. the only thing he did different from Hagler was become LH champ. I would personally rate Bhop above Hagler though.

Yeah I know Bernard was undisputed MW champ, for about 1/3 of his reign.

[Phil]

Do you mean Roy ducked Michalczewski? I don't think Roy ducked Calzaghe.

Now Daxx, don't get annoyed, all your points are perfectly reasonable BUT

Comparing their best wins - you have marked down Roy's win over Hopkins because he was "new to the game" ... yet you give Hopkins extra credit for being the first man to beat Johnson. This is a bit inconsistent.

McCallum was past his best. But then surely it's only fair to mention Oscar was fighting way above his natural weightclass.. this goes for Tito, Wright and Pavlik too.

Apart from that - Good point about Hopkins never being stopped or dominated. I don't agree he should rate above Roy, but there's no right or wrong with these lists just opinion - as you said.

Just opinion Mate but the fact Roy declined to fight Calzaghe was HIS words not mine....It was before the Hopkins/Calzaghe fight and Roy said he wanted winner...When asked why he mnever went to fight Calzaghe all the years he was LHW champ and Calzaghe was calling his name he stated...

"Truth,,,There was too much for me to lose at the time...I was not going to go in his country and risk my P4P title and fight in another country now its different he has what I want I don't have what he wants"

I swear on a book of bibles

As far as the other points (My point with Hopkins not being his best)....Bernard was new to the game period...Jones had a long amateur career, Olympic experience...Hopkins had only been at it a few years...The man had virtually no amateur experience...He learned the sport while in prison...Not exactly the best gym is it?

DLH, chased Hopkins,,,,Small MW yes but in truth he is actually bigger then Hagler..5'9 1/2" 75" reach...DLH is 5' 10 1/2"...Tito is 5'11" and walked around over the 160 mark and had been campaigning at MW was even a champion with 2 title defenses

i think what roy said was "I was pound for pound champ and undisputed champ, why should I have to go fight him when I was the best", which makes sense. In every sport the champ, better, or favorite gets home field advantage. The calculated move by calzaghe to all of sudden come to the states to fight both roy and Bhop after they seemingly lost their grips on their respective divisions seems too convienent and also proves that he was willing to come to the states all along, whereas neither of them have left the country since becoming champs. calzaghe sat over there and waited for them to "look" beatable then came over...

tbh Calzaghe was just as stubborn as Jones for not wanting to leave his backyard, both of there carears could be so much better if they would have travelled, Jones could have gone to Germany to fight DM(a true champ would have wanted this scalp and gone for it), he could have come to Ireland to fight Collins, Brittian to fight Eubank ect... and imo he would have won them all, if he'd done this he would have picked up alot more fans and gotten alot more credit. The fact remains that RJJ, BHOP and Calzaghe could all have travelled and challenged themselves alot more, but they were all quite happy taking easier options in there own countrys...

[rjj tszyu]

Tough list to make for sure...I will give my top 25 but thats about it..

1. Ray Robinson
2. Willie Pep
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Pernell Whitaker
10. Harry Greb
11. Sam Langford
12. Billy Conn
13. Joe Louis
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Salvadore Sanchez
16. Bernard Hopkins
17. Roy Jones
18. Ricardo Lopez
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. Sandy Saddler
21. Ray Leonard
22. Barney Ross
23. Kid Gavilan
24. Jack Johnson
25. Wilfredo Gomez

Keep in mind I base all my choices on prime condition of the fighters, I do not use world titles won etc as a part of my opinion (EG Guys like Langford would be punished because they were never given a shot at the titl;e due to color)...

Though maybe some spots might be off by 1 or 2 places either way It is pretty , much my complete list of the top 25

Why Hopkins above Jones?

Longevity...In his 40s he is still a P4P #1 fighter...Also Hopkins has a better level of comp....Hard to even say when Hopkins prime is/was because he is still elite...

Jones...Titles from 160,168,175, and HW best wins are over

Tate, Toney, Hill, Hopkins (A very new to the game Hopkins not the version he turned out to be).... (his bout with McCallum was a waay past his best McCallum)

Jones also ducked guys...Admittingly he ducked Calzaghe in his LHW reign stating he had too much to lose for him to travel and fight him

Hopkins best wins...

Glen Johnson (Ist to do so) Felix Trinidad, De La Hoya, Eastman (when Howard was worthy), Wright, Pavlik, Daniels,

Hopkins beat tha man to KO Jones 1st time out...He has never been Stopped and he has never been dominated in one sided fashion he has never lost a fight by more then 3rds on any scorecard....

11yr Middleweight champion, 4yrs as undisputed MW champion, former LHW ring champion

IMO Jones in his prime may have been the most gifted athlete in the game when he fought at 168 to this day I don't think P4P he could have been beaten by anyone in history but that time was short, Jones spent a lot of soft time at LHW...his last outing was embaressing.....KO'd back to back

I had to give Hopkins the nod easily for me...just my opp though

Ok then Daxx but why did you say in your original post that you went off Prime? Surely if you think at his prime no-one in history could have beaten him he should be no.1?

To be honest had Roy retired after the Ruiz fight there really couldn't be much argument that he would be in most top 10 p4p lists. But for me he shouldn't have anything taken from him for what he lost in his later years (Ali doesn't) but he should be acknowledged for what he had in his prime!