I'm not impressed with Juan Diaz

[ElTerribleMorales]

so what (active) ELITE fighter has Manny beaten of late to be considered elite?

What elites were out there for him to beat besides Marquez?

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

[Killa From Manila]

What elites were out there for him to beat besides Marquez?

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

so you're considering Juan Diaz as elite fighter eventhough hes got his ass handed to him by active elite fighters like Campbell and Marquez?

[JonnyFolds]

Juan Diaz reminds of Joe Frazier without the footspeed or power... or head movement, but he keeps his hands higher to compensate.

So... he looks... anything like him... at all?
Frazier and he throw punches nothing alike IMO. When have we seen Baby Bull throw 7 left hooks in a row?

[JonnyFolds]

I am really shocked at how people perceive Juan Diaz. Granted, he is not a knockout artist, but I would never say he lacks power. It's not shoe shin he's serving out there. Listen to Manny Stewart's commentary when he fought JMM. "Diaz was sitting on his punches, using his legs, and landing big shots". I thought for the first tiem Diaz' punches were stronger than ever after the first couple rounds. I do not think that it's Diaz power that we were missing, it was JMM's chin is cast iron. The guy is impossible to hurt.
Diaz still has a great career ahead of him. He is fighting guys who are not easy to knockout, guys who he should be outboxing, really, and he's had a lot of success, despite coming up short 2x in his career. I really give credit to Campbell and JMM, rather than discredit J. Diaz.

Aside: It's too bad His little bro (R.Marquez) had to be matched up with his elite Izzy. He would be viewed as just as good a fighter, but he's had to take MUCH harder shots than JMM with his Elite matchup... And yes, of course Pacman is Elite. DUH!

[Majesty]

so what (active) ELITE fighter has Manny beaten of late to be considered elite?

What elites were out there for him to beat besides Marquez?

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

I know that, I was responding to ElTerrible who was asking who elite manny fought lately, so I was asking who else was there for him to fight that was considered elite.

[ElTerribleMorales]

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

so you're considering Juan Diaz as elite fighter eventhough hes got his ass handed to him by active elite fighters like Campbell and Marquez?

in anything that i wrote did i say i considered Diaz an elite fighter? no, but i do consider Hatton right now one of the elite fighters out there, and i don't even really like Hatton

[Killa From Manila]

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

so you're considering Juan Diaz as elite fighter eventhough hes got his ass handed to him by active elite fighters like Campbell and Marquez?

in anything that i wrote did i say i considered Diaz an elite fighter? no, but i do consider Hatton right now one of the elite fighters out there, and i don't even really like Hatton

Aight, fair enough. I was gonna say "Geez! Jaca is elite fighter then, coz he was very competive against Marquez, but ended up getting KTFO just like Diaz."

[Taeth]

What elites were out there for him to beat besides Marquez?

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

[ElTerribleMorales]

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

[Killa From Manila]

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

Well, that's your opinion.

The debates on who won both Pac-JMM fights will just go on and on and on and on...

But on the latest Ring Mag issue, JMM seems to admitted he never defeated Pac (check out my sig).

[ElTerribleMorales]

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

Well, that's your opinion.

The debates on who won both Pac-JMM fights will just go on and on and on and on...

But on the latest Ring Mag issue, JMM seems to admitted he never defeated Pac (check out my sig).

no doubt, they're just those types of fights that will always be disputed on who actually won, like Hagler/Leonard, DLH/Trinidad, etc.

[Taeth]

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

The only people that think Marquez won the second fight are delusional, he didn't even win without the knockdown, with it there is no way he won that fight. Need further evidence of who was better watch Marquez-Barrear then Pacquiao-Barrera, in the first fight both guys seem virtually equal, while in the second fihgt consisting of Pacquiao and Barrera, Pacquiao wins handily and doesn't even really step on the gas.

Morales wasn't shot in their first fight and Manny almost beat him there and he wasn't half as good as he is now.

Also was that the same shot Oscar De La Hoya who looked good against Mayweather and Steve Forbes? I am not saying he was what, he once was maybe even when he faced Floyd, but it was Pacquiao's greatness not De La Hoya's decline that was the reason he got his ass handed to him. Marquez wouldn't have been able to do that.

Even if you had Pacquiao losing both fights to Marquez which due to terrible scoring, they would have still had to have been extremely close fights(within a round or two) and the second one even without the knockdown scored would have had to been very close.

[ElTerribleMorales]

[quote=Taeth;715012]

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

The only people that think Marquez won the second fight are delusional, he didn't even win without the knockdown, with it there is no way he won that fight. Need further evidence of who was better watch Marquez-Barrear then Pacquiao-Barrera, in the first fight both guys seem virtually equal, while in the second fihgt consisting of Pacquiao and Barrera, Pacquiao wins handily and doesn't even really step on the gas.

Barrera was giving Pacquiao fits in the first fight until the later rounds, IMO he could have taken him out if he would have pressured more, Manny gets the credit that he came back and stopped him

Morales wasn't shot in their first fight and Manny almost beat him there and he wasn't half as good as he is now.

Morales won 115-113 UD, and could have easily won 116-112 in the first fight, he gave away the last round, after dominating the 11th, and hello he lost to Raheem the very next fight, and i know you're not trying to say that Raheem is overall better than Morales cause if you are it proves you're an biased ass

Also was that the same shot Oscar De La Hoya who looked good against Mayweather and Steve Forbes? I am not saying he was what, he once was maybe even when he faced Floyd, but it was Pacquiao's greatness not De La Hoya's decline that was the reason he got his ass handed to him. Marquez wouldn't have been able to do that.

you're the first person to actually say DLH looked good against Forbes shit that's the first fight i've seen the winner win by shut out and still look like crap, and honestly anyone at 147,140,135 with a pulse would have beaten DLH that night, maybe not as badly as Pac did but Hatton IMO would have beat him worse

Even if you had Pacquiao losing both fights to Marquez which due to terrible scoring, they would have still had to have been extremely close fights(within a round or two) and the second one even without the knockdown scored would have had to been very close.

shows just how biased you are in fights that you have the nerve to say that neither Pac/Marquez fights were close, Manny didn't in anyway dominate ANY part of the fights aside from maybe the first round in the first fight, how the hell would Marquez of lost in the rematch regardless of the knockdown, when he's won more rounds in both fights than Manny, take the semen out your eyes dude honestly

[OumaFan]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

[ElTerribleMorales]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

ok maybe i got a little carried away there lol but i honestly think that if the Barrera/Pacquiao rematch would have happened sooner, he could have beaten Pac