I'm not impressed with Juan Diaz

[ElTerribleMorales]

Who cares, Manny's been elite for a long time.

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

[Killa From Manila]

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

Well, that's your opinion.

The debates on who won both Pac-JMM fights will just go on and on and on and on...

But on the latest Ring Mag issue, JMM seems to admitted he never defeated Pac (check out my sig).

[ElTerribleMorales]

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

Well, that's your opinion.

The debates on who won both Pac-JMM fights will just go on and on and on and on...

But on the latest Ring Mag issue, JMM seems to admitted he never defeated Pac (check out my sig).

no doubt, they're just those types of fights that will always be disputed on who actually won, like Hagler/Leonard, DLH/Trinidad, etc.

[Taeth]

that's what i was trying to say, you don't have to beat elite to be elite, you pick up enough meaningful wins against good world class opposition and you should be considered an elite fighter, hence the p4p list, and i'm not disputing the fact that Pacquiao should be considered elite cause he should, only thing is that the theory of "to be elite you have to beat (active) elite" is complete bullshit

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

The only people that think Marquez won the second fight are delusional, he didn't even win without the knockdown, with it there is no way he won that fight. Need further evidence of who was better watch Marquez-Barrear then Pacquiao-Barrera, in the first fight both guys seem virtually equal, while in the second fihgt consisting of Pacquiao and Barrera, Pacquiao wins handily and doesn't even really step on the gas.

Morales wasn't shot in their first fight and Manny almost beat him there and he wasn't half as good as he is now.

Also was that the same shot Oscar De La Hoya who looked good against Mayweather and Steve Forbes? I am not saying he was what, he once was maybe even when he faced Floyd, but it was Pacquiao's greatness not De La Hoya's decline that was the reason he got his ass handed to him. Marquez wouldn't have been able to do that.

Even if you had Pacquiao losing both fights to Marquez which due to terrible scoring, they would have still had to have been extremely close fights(within a round or two) and the second one even without the knockdown scored would have had to been very close.

[ElTerribleMorales]

[quote=Taeth;715012]

So Manny beating Marquez, Barrera, Dela Hoya, and Morales isnt' considered beating elites?

beating a shot Morales and De La Hoya no, Barrera yes, and Marquez i felt he won both fights not Manny

The only people that think Marquez won the second fight are delusional, he didn't even win without the knockdown, with it there is no way he won that fight. Need further evidence of who was better watch Marquez-Barrear then Pacquiao-Barrera, in the first fight both guys seem virtually equal, while in the second fihgt consisting of Pacquiao and Barrera, Pacquiao wins handily and doesn't even really step on the gas.

Barrera was giving Pacquiao fits in the first fight until the later rounds, IMO he could have taken him out if he would have pressured more, Manny gets the credit that he came back and stopped him

Morales wasn't shot in their first fight and Manny almost beat him there and he wasn't half as good as he is now.

Morales won 115-113 UD, and could have easily won 116-112 in the first fight, he gave away the last round, after dominating the 11th, and hello he lost to Raheem the very next fight, and i know you're not trying to say that Raheem is overall better than Morales cause if you are it proves you're an biased ass

Also was that the same shot Oscar De La Hoya who looked good against Mayweather and Steve Forbes? I am not saying he was what, he once was maybe even when he faced Floyd, but it was Pacquiao's greatness not De La Hoya's decline that was the reason he got his ass handed to him. Marquez wouldn't have been able to do that.

you're the first person to actually say DLH looked good against Forbes shit that's the first fight i've seen the winner win by shut out and still look like crap, and honestly anyone at 147,140,135 with a pulse would have beaten DLH that night, maybe not as badly as Pac did but Hatton IMO would have beat him worse

Even if you had Pacquiao losing both fights to Marquez which due to terrible scoring, they would have still had to have been extremely close fights(within a round or two) and the second one even without the knockdown scored would have had to been very close.

shows just how biased you are in fights that you have the nerve to say that neither Pac/Marquez fights were close, Manny didn't in anyway dominate ANY part of the fights aside from maybe the first round in the first fight, how the hell would Marquez of lost in the rematch regardless of the knockdown, when he's won more rounds in both fights than Manny, take the semen out your eyes dude honestly

[OumaFan]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

[ElTerribleMorales]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

ok maybe i got a little carried away there lol but i honestly think that if the Barrera/Pacquiao rematch would have happened sooner, he could have beaten Pac

[Killa From Manila]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

ok maybe i got a little carried away there lol but i honestly think that if the Barrera/Pacquiao rematch would have happened sooner, he could have beaten Pac

What do you think was the strong indication that Marco would have beaten Manny if the rematch have happen right away?

[ElTerribleMorales]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

ok maybe i got a little carried away there lol but i honestly think that if the Barrera/Pacquiao rematch would have happened sooner, he could have beaten Pac

What do you think was the strong indication that Marco would have beaten Manny if the rematch have happen right away?

he looked a lot sharper in the fights that followed, and well by the time the rematch did happen Barrera already kinda looked out of it, not shot, just he didn't look as driven

[Taeth]

Elterrible, I said that PAcquia-Marquez I and II were close. Its people who say Pacquiao was dominated from the fourth round on that are full of shit. The second fight was close as well and very even, but there is just no way in my mind that Marquez could have won that, people give him the first round but Pacquiao landed twice as many punches in that round as Marquez did. I can definitely see a draw without the knockdown, but having Marquez ahead by 2 rounds without hte knockdown is mysterious to me.

Also Barrera was dominated the entire fight against PAcquiao except the first round but even there he got credited a knockdown in a situation where he didn't land a punch. It wouldn't have mattered when they fought, Barrera doesn't have Morales chin and he would have been taken out because PAcquiao only got better and still just as ferocious up until the second MOrales fight where he really started improving on his defense and balance.

Also Morales beat Pacquiao the first night, but it was highly competitive and they both took a lot of punches, I am not saying it wasn't unanimous, but winning by 2 rounds means its a close fight.

How did OScar look poor against Forbes? He neglected defense because he didn't need it due to FOrbes' lack of power, but he was throwing his jab beautifully, he was light on his feet, he was throwing good combinations. IMO he looked as good as he did when he KO'ed Mayorga 10x more impressively than Mosley did.

Forbes has great defensively skills, and is impossible to hurt, how can you expect Oscar to look exceptional against that? He had his speed, his desire to win, he showed stamina and a right hand.

I shouldn't have said people who think Marquez won against Pacquiao are delusional, but I get criticized for being a called fan boy because I think both fights were scored appropriately, yet people who have Marquez winning both fights aren't criticized at all even though Pacquiao in more eyes than not won the second fight. THe first fight htere was room for controversy, but the second fight IMO Pacquiao won a razor thin victory by a larger margin on the scorecard than the fight would have indicated because of hte knockdown.

[JonnyFolds]

You don't have to be delusional to think Marquez won the second one, but ElTerrible Pacquaio put a beatdown on Barrera in their first fight, Barrera didn't give him fits. Barrera might have won a round, maybe.

Pac pretty much shut Barrera down. A classic performance. I was surprised there was a rematch. I didn't think Barrera had a gameplan to implement for victory... especially after losing to Marquez(although a very very competitive fight). THEN IT WAS PPV!!! BULLSH*T!

What (Teath) said above

[Taeth]

I am sorry, but when people like ElTerrible start saying Pacquiao is probably the most proven fighter of this generation in terms of competition the outcome of his fight doesn't have the credentials to be considered great I find it laughable. He's beaten 4 guys who have all been in the top 5 p4p for an extended period of time.

[ElTerribleMorales]

First fight: Pacquiao embarassed Barrera in front of his crowd.

Second fight: It was very conservative fight for Barrera, he just wanted to survive the night, and didn't really wanna engage until the late rounds where he got cut by a punch and penalized for hitting during the break.

Barrera didn't look that sharp to me against Juarez 1. He just boxed well in Juarez 2, that's pretty much it. Barrera was never a threat to Pacquiao because of their styles.

he looked plenty sharp in the Juarez rematch, boxed beautifully using his jab and straight right

Juarez isn't Pacquaio, Marquez dominated Juarez, but he couldn't dominate Pacquiao. Pacquiao had speed which Juarez didn't have, and Barrera was a little slower than Marquez who was just quick enough to capatalize on Manny's technical flaws.

i know Pacquiao isn't Juarez, but Barrera seemed willing to fight there in the rematch from the get go he seemed tentative to actually FIGHT, and it wasn't so much due to Pacquiao's boxing ability so much to the fact that Barrera didn't really seem driven, i'm not saying that Pacquiao wouldn't of beat him either way, but i think Barrera would have put on a better performance if the rematch would have happended earlier

he looked a lot sharper in the fights that followed, and well by the time the rematch did happen Barrera already kinda looked out of it, not shot, just he didn't look as driven

First fight: Pacquiao embarassed Barrera in front of his crowd.

Second fight: It was very conservative fight for Barrera, he just wanted to survive the night, and didn't really wanna engage until the late rounds where he got cut by a punch and penalized for hitting during the break.

Barrera didn't look that sharp to me against Juarez 1. He just boxed well in Juarez 2, that's pretty much it. Barrera was never a threat to Pacquiao because of their styles.

To be fair, both Barrera and Pac looked pretty poor in the second fight. Neither fighter was willing to engage. If Barrera really wanted to he could have made a fight of that. Pac was not himself whatsoever in that fight. Barrera was seemingly going through the motions himself though.

A horrible fight to watch. I would never have expected it to be so dull.

exactly what i thought, both fighters kinda didn't seem motivated