How skilled is Wladimir Klitschko really?

[jokaleras]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO_sWnawpU4What was that you were saying about the left hook?

Also in the begining of this thread you implied that if someone had Floyd Patterson's skill set they would beat Wladimir Klitschko....obviously you know fuck all about boxing. The Cus D'Mato/Floyd Patterson/Mike Tyson method of boxing does have weaknesses and what Wladimir uses to his advantage exploits those weaknesses. I bring to your attention the fighters who caused that style of boxing the most trouble....

#1 James 'Buster' Douglas....used height, reach, size, and mobility vs the previously undefeated 'Iron' Mike Tyson and basically took Mike to school and don't anyone give me that old "Well Mike didn't have Rooney" bullshit Mike could have had Jesus in his corner and it wouldn't have helped him.

#2 Alexis Arguello, oh yes El Flaco Explosivo demolished one Kevin Rooney who used that very same style. Height + Reach + Power = KO win for Arguello.

#3 Tony Tucker, tall, lanky, used height and reach and had he not broken his hand early on in the bout perhaps he could have beaten Tyson. Tucker didn't win but he gave Tyson all kinds of trouble.

The other fighters who gave that style trouble were the fighters who didn't put up with the bullying/rough house tactics used by Cus and his fighters....I doubt Wlad would accept someone bullying him, we don't know on account of the fact no one has tried.

#1 Sonny Liston, rolled right on through Floyd Patterson TWICE

#2 Evander Holyfield the fight vs Tyson wasn't even close

#3 Lennox Lewis, he didn't put up with any of Mike's crap either.

Hell I could even through James 'Bonecrusher' Smith in this group, he wasn't known for his chin but even he lasted the distance with a Prime Mike Tyson

As for anyone not sold on Wlad's skill, you go out and try to win a fight with one hand and see how easy it is. Boxing isn't JUST about KO's but Wlad gets those too. Sure he doesn't come out guns a blazin like he used to and BECAUSE of that he's one of the most dominant fighters out there. Also Wladimir can't be blamed if the opponent he is fighting doesn't want to fight him, sure people were waiting for him to KO Sultan Ibragimov, I was one of the people waiting for it, but when you fight a lefty and he's loading up ready to counter the right cross do you know what punch you don't throw.....THE RIGHT CROSS!!!

But hey if you guys don't like Wlad fine go right ahead and hate on him, he'll be around for a while yet so be sure to pace yourselves

Those lefthooks against Austin? Sure, now let's see him throw multiple lefthooks in quick succession without both of his feet together. Actually, it speaks of how awful Austin is that he got caught by a lead lefthook. Even RJJ and Sugar Ray Robinson would set up theirs with feints.

Buster Douglas troubled Tyson with his height and reach advantage? Sure and it was also the feints and lateral movement and that jab he would double and triple up to maneuver Tyson. If you're implying that Wlad would beat a prime Tyson this way you're absolutely wrong. Douglas could move twenty times better than Wlad. Mike Tyson would easily slip Wlad's sometimes lethargic jab and tear his ass up on the inside. Furthermore, Wlad lacks a good uppercut to even trouble the smaller Tyson should he get on the inside. I won't even address the rest of that post as it is full of holes.

As for that Ibragimov comment you made: Ibragimov was loading up a counter? what are you saying?? you mean he was actually telegraphing his punches and that Wlad couldn't counter telegraphed punches?
And that right cross? Why couldn't Wlad remember that basic rule about fighting southpaws? To keep your lead foot outside of the southpaw's right foot? Couldn't he have delivered the right crosses in that way? Maybe he could've used his rear/right foot more to get himself into proper positions, that's how Hopkins knocked down Tarver. It's how Marco Antonio Barrera put on a masterful boxing exhibition against Hamed. Of course, he ain't that technically sound. He constantly has his rear foot right behind his left foot. He can't expect to get good leverage on that right cross that way. It's a good thing he has a serious reach and size advantage over some of his opponents.

[leftylee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO_sWnawpU4
What was that you were saying about the left hook?

Also in the begining of this thread you implied that if someone had Floyd Patterson's skill set they would beat Wladimir Klitschko....obviously you know fuck all about boxing. The Cus D'Mato/Floyd Patterson/Mike Tyson method of boxing does have weaknesses and what Wladimir uses to his advantage exploits those weaknesses. I bring to your attention the fighters who caused that style of boxing the most trouble....

#1 James 'Buster' Douglas....used height, reach, size, and mobility vs the previously undefeated 'Iron' Mike Tyson and basically took Mike to school and don't anyone give me that old "Well Mike didn't have Rooney" bullshit Mike could have had Jesus in his corner and it wouldn't have helped him.

#2 Alexis Arguello, oh yes El Flaco Explosivo demolished one Kevin Rooney who used that very same style. Height + Reach + Power = KO win for Arguello.

#3 Tony Tucker, tall, lanky, used height and reach and had he not broken his hand early on in the bout perhaps he could have beaten Tyson. Tucker didn't win but he gave Tyson all kinds of trouble.

The other fighters who gave that style trouble were the fighters who didn't put up with the bullying/rough house tactics used by Cus and his fighters....I doubt Wlad would accept someone bullying him, we don't know on account of the fact no one has tried.

#1 Sonny Liston, rolled right on through Floyd Patterson TWICE

#2 Evander Holyfield the fight vs Tyson wasn't even close

#3 Lennox Lewis, he didn't put up with any of Mike's crap either.

Hell I could even through James 'Bonecrusher' Smith in this group, he wasn't known for his chin but even he lasted the distance with a Prime Mike Tyson

As for anyone not sold on Wlad's skill, you go out and try to win a fight with one hand and see how easy it is. Boxing isn't JUST about KO's but Wlad gets those too. Sure he doesn't come out guns a blazin like he used to and BECAUSE of that he's one of the most dominant fighters out there. Also Wladimir can't be blamed if the opponent he is fighting doesn't want to fight him, sure people were waiting for him to KO Sultan Ibragimov, I was one of the people waiting for it, but when you fight a lefty and he's loading up ready to counter the right cross do you know what punch you don't throw.....THE RIGHT CROSS!!!

But hey if you guys don't like Wlad fine go right ahead and hate on him, he'll be around for a while yet so be sure to pace yourselves

No need for the essay. Wlad is a fraud. The whole world knows it bar a couple of Germans and your punk ass.

[Mar]

How skilled Both bro's are clear champs right now, does it really matter ? They've kicked the skill out of everyone as of late, all that really matters.

[leftylee]

How skilled Both bro's are clear champs right now, does it really matter ? They've kicked the skill out of everyone as of late, all that really matters.

Not out of this guy.

[DaxxKahn]

How skilled Both bro's are clear champs right now, does it really matter ? They've kicked the skill out of everyone as of late, all that really matters.

Not out of this guy.

Of course not thats because after ball the shit talking he did Haye found a way to get out of fighting BOTH brothers

[El Kabong]

Those lefthooks against Austin? Sure, now let's see him throw multiple lefthooks in quick succession without both of his feet together. Actually, it speaks of how awful Austin is that he got caught by a lead lefthook. Even RJJ and Sugar Ray Robinson would set up theirs with feints.

Buster Douglas troubled Tyson with his height and reach advantage? Sure and it was also the feints and lateral movement and that jab he would double and triple up to maneuver Tyson. If you're implying that Wlad would beat a prime Tyson this way you're absolutely wrong. Douglas could move twenty times better than Wlad. Mike Tyson would easily slip Wlad's sometimes lethargic jab and tear his ass up on the inside. Furthermore, Wlad lacks a good uppercut to even trouble the smaller Tyson should he get on the inside. I won't even address the rest of that post as it is full of holes.

As for that Ibragimov comment you made: Ibragimov was loading up a counter? what are you saying?? you mean he was actually telegraphing his punches and that Wlad couldn't counter telegraphed punches?
And that right cross? Why couldn't Wlad remember that basic rule about fighting southpaws? To keep your lead foot outside of the southpaw's right foot? Couldn't he have delivered the right crosses in that way? Maybe he could've used his rear/right foot more to get himself into proper positions, that's how Hopkins knocked down Tarver. It's how Marco Antonio Barrera put on a masterful boxing exhibition against Hamed. Of course, he ain't that technically sound. He constantly has his rear foot right behind his left foot. He can't expect to get good leverage on that right cross that way. It's a good thing he has a serious reach and size advantage over some of his opponents.

There's no point in arguing with you because you're a hater and no matter who Wlad beats or how Wlad beats them it's not going to change your mind. Anytime I bring up a time when Wladimir did well you'll come along and say "Yeah but that was vs _____".

"Douglas could move twenty times better than Wlad" Oh really Lethargic jab?? Anybody have any issues with that other than myself? I never said whether Wlad would or wouldn't beat a Prime Mike Tyson (oh by the way who the hell did he fight) I simply said Wladimir has the skill set to beat that style of fighter. Mike Tyson got hurt by: Lewis, Douglas, Holyfield, Bruno, and Smith...I rate Wladimir's power right behind Lennox Lewis'.

As for the fight with Sultan, it wasn't his best performance but Wlad came out with the W and as a fighter sometimes you have to take what is given to you. Wlad has fought more southpaws than any other heavyweight in modern times and the last one he fought was on short notice...it's not an easy thing to adapt to

Leftylee, David Haye was handed TWO shots at the Klitschko brothers and DAVID HAYE pussed out of both fights to try and get title vs the easiest opponent he could find with a major belt.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Metaphorically speaking, the man is like a Boa Constrictor..Look at his stats.

If the guy infront of him wants to 'think' for 2.5 minutes a round, He'll invariabley get 'out-thought'.

The more they open up, the more they get beat up.

If their/ we are lucky enough, Wlad will just knock the guy out before either 'thinking' or 'fighting' has had a chance to oocur... Sometimes with one arm.

Incredible really.

[jon09]

Vlad is very skilled, can he be frustrating to watch? At times yes he can be, but for a heavyweight that is in his early 30's and that has almost 60 fights and as nearly that many knockouts says something about him and his skills. The same people that hate him will tune in and watch him until his hundredth fight because you never know what might happen either he will look really impressive or really crappy but either way someone will more than likely get knocked out.

[jokaleras]

Those lefthooks against Austin? Sure, now let's see him throw multiple lefthooks in quick succession without both of his feet together. Actually, it speaks of how awful Austin is that he got caught by a lead lefthook. Even RJJ and Sugar Ray Robinson would set up theirs with feints.

Buster Douglas troubled Tyson with his height and reach advantage? Sure and it was also the feints and lateral movement and that jab he would double and triple up to maneuver Tyson. If you're implying that Wlad would beat a prime Tyson this way you're absolutely wrong. Douglas could move twenty times better than Wlad. Mike Tyson would easily slip Wlad's sometimes lethargic jab and tear his ass up on the inside. Furthermore, Wlad lacks a good uppercut to even trouble the smaller Tyson should he get on the inside. I won't even address the rest of that post as it is full of holes.

As for that Ibragimov comment you made: Ibragimov was loading up a counter? what are you saying?? you mean he was actually telegraphing his punches and that Wlad couldn't counter telegraphed punches?
And that right cross? Why couldn't Wlad remember that basic rule about fighting southpaws? To keep your lead foot outside of the southpaw's right foot? Couldn't he have delivered the right crosses in that way? Maybe he could've used his rear/right foot more to get himself into proper positions, that's how Hopkins knocked down Tarver. It's how Marco Antonio Barrera put on a masterful boxing exhibition against Hamed. Of course, he ain't that technically sound. He constantly has his rear foot right behind his left foot. He can't expect to get good leverage on that right cross that way. It's a good thing he has a serious reach and size advantage over some of his opponents.

There's no point in arguing with you because you're a hater and no matter who Wlad beats or how Wlad beats them it's not going to change your mind. Anytime I bring up a time when Wladimir did well you'll come along and say "Yeah but that was vs _____".

"Douglas could move twenty times better than Wlad" Oh really Lethargic jab?? Anybody have any issues with that other than myself? I never said whether Wlad would or wouldn't beat a Prime Mike Tyson (oh by the way who the hell did he fight) I simply said Wladimir has the skill set to beat that style of fighter. Mike Tyson got hurt by: Lewis, Douglas, Holyfield, Bruno, and Smith...I rate Wladimir's power right behind Lennox Lewis'.

As for the fight with Sultan, it wasn't his best performance but Wlad came out with the W and as a fighter sometimes you have to take what is given to you. Wlad has fought more southpaws than any other heavyweight in modern times and the last one he fought was on short notice...it's not an easy thing to adapt to

Leftylee, David Haye was handed TWO shots at the Klitschko brothers and DAVID HAYE pussed out of both fights to try and get title vs the easiest opponent he could find with a major belt.

fair enough!

[J_Undisputed]

"In the Land of the blind, the man with one eye is king.... "

I wouldn't call klitchsko a terriblly skilled heavyweight. He boxes and does get the most of his natural advantages (size, reach etc.) but it would be an oversight to ignore than he is benefitting from a weak division, poorly conditioned competition and media/marketing influence. Klitchsko is a fighter in line with many fighters of recent years. He's rather mechanical (in my opinion) but shows up in shape, and with enough dedication that allows him to run the table at this point. He can't be faulted for the lack of work ethic from his potential opponents.
At the same time, I don't put too much faith in stats and percentages. Not being hit by Sam Peter is not an unheralded feat in my opinion. Its akin to accomplishing a high connect percentage on Jeff Lacey. I also struggle with the opinion that there would be a huge void to fill had klitchsko suddenly vanished or retired. There would be some other or a handful of other "good enough" guys to fill that space... as what really defined Klitschko and set him apart (in my opinion)at this point is more the slacking of his opponents than his true boxing skills,a heart?, courage?,a granite chin?, intimidation factor.
I feal the person who started this thread was probably looking for more negative opinions like this own than actual validation of Klitschko and that's cool i guess. I wasn't looking to tear down klitschko, but I can't really buy into the picture thats being painted of him by hbo, sportswriters, fans or anyone else thats highly praising him. Hes not even very active by my standards to even market him as ruler of the heavies. If the guys your fighting aren't even really viewed as threats, You should be running through 3 or 4 of them a year if you want to be king instead of quibbling with cruisers with a media version of family feud and then dragging out a fight over bum of the (6) month()s club. Just my opinion of course.

#1 When Wladimir fought Sam Peter Wlad was coming off of 2 losses, still trying to get used to Manny Steward being his trainer, and Sam was the undefeated power puncher extrordinaire. Let's not pretend he was the same slow unmotivated fighter who just got beat by Eddie Chambers.

#2 What guys are "good enough" to beat the quality of opponents he has fought in as good a fashion as Wladimir did? Haye? Arreola?? Chambers? Povetkin? I doubt it.

#3 Wladimir fights a ton, he's 33 and has had 56 fights and you're telling me he's not active enough?!?!?! Are you out of your damn mind?!?! Wlad has been a pro since 1996, so for basically 13 years and 56 fights over that period of time averages out to a little over 4 fights a year.

#4 As for the "quibbling" with cruiserweight CHUMPion of the World David Haye...HBO wanted that fight and David talked himself into it, from what I could see as a fan Haye was the first person to really piss off Wladimir so it did add some drama to the scene but that faded when Haye wilted when he was faced with the reality of feasting on an all he could eat buffet of knuckle sandwiches. Wlad didn't call for that fight, but he wanted to give the fans something they wanted to see and that was it or so HBO thought. He tried to get a number of interesting opponents after Haye pussed out: Valuev (to unify I guess, I still don't know who the WBA title holder is), Arreola, and then he finally settled on Chagaev, really not bad at all considering what Haye did.

- Response to #1 -Sam peter never ranked high on my list of heavyweights either. So Wlad had 2 losses. That doesnt suddenly give Peter more accuracy or skill. Power Punch extraordinaire because he Ko'd Jeremy Williams? Not saying it took no skill took no effort to not get hit by Sam Peter but any tall heavyweight that works the Jab can give Peter fits. You could vitali in there, eddie chambers or whoever and probably got the same result. Hell Peter almost got ko'd early by Lazy Jameel McCline.
- Response to #2- Whos good enough to beat the guys Wlad beat in as good as Fashion. None, thats my point. You can take anyone of these Half @$$ers and put him against another one. Beat him in a knockdown drag out... Only to have him beat by some other Ham and egger next fight. In my opinion, it would probably be more exciting to watch a roundabout and see who finally emerges as the best of the worst in competitive fights, than to watch Vlad spar for money and only push himself as far as he needs to wear the other guy down. I didn't say Wlad wasn't skilled just that his skill level shouldnt be inflated because of how high he stands over his competition.To really test him, he needs better comp in better shape or maybe if they stuffed him with cheesburgers till he fights down to the level of his competition and can still pull out a wins. I said befor ethe guy shouldnt be penalized because hes in better shape, bit phsycial conditioning doesnt equal skill.
- Response #3- Lots of fighters have lots of fights cumatively over their career. The fact is he only fights about once every 5 months now. For a guy who barely gets touched and is so skilled above his competition, he should be wiping out a new guy every 3 months and calling out the next one instead of sitting around waiting to see which bum he can make the most money on. Joe Louis had the bum of the month club, Foreman fought 5 guys in one night. Wlad seems to be milking it, content that theres no threats or challenges because the only one who might give him problems at this point, is the guy who used to sit on his head and fart when they were kids. (I really dont fault the guy for not fighting family because it complicates things, but either find a nemesis or starting taking guys out as early and viciously as possible)
- Response#4 - Agreed Haye is a $h*t talking chihuahua barking up from cruiserweight that will never shut his mouth and spends all day making T-shirts instead of fights. Why spend so much energy on this guy? He pulls out, Dismiss him. He lost his shot and he can go back to cruiserweights or fighting the monte Barrets and work his way up till he cant be avoided. Till then does it really matter which guy was next. Sasquatch can be outworked easily (what good is a 7ft heavyweight with a 100lb weight advantage that cant catch or stop anyone?). Arreola can be walked away from till he gets tired and takes a knee just to catch his breath--easy 2 point round. Changaev could get injured or get malaria just walking to the ring. Did any of them really pose that much of a threat? Its not Wlads fault for having more discipline and boxing ability than those guys, but until someone steps up and really tests him (besides overweight south african golf pro's and winging Lamon Brewster) lets not carve his name into the throne till he:

A-starts ko'ing all these guys in one round like he should and calling for the next one.

or

B- or really faces some legitimate threats. (to not just his title but his health)

[CGM]

Can I comment on his grey matter instead of his skill? It's funny, I understand both Klitchkos have PHDs, so they aren't stupid, I guess, but they have never seemed bright or savvy to me.

Imagine a genius calling himself Dr Steelhammer or Dr IronFist. LOL.

They are magnificent physical specimens though, I'll give them that much.

[El Kabong]

#1 All the stuff you mentioned about Sam Peter is erroneous as it happened AFTER Wladimir beat him. And yes Wladimir coming off of 2 losses DOES mean something as the psychological state he was in wasn't the best, people said at that point in time "if Wlad loses again he should retire" by beating Sam Peter, Wladimir re-staked his claim as the heir apparent and hasn't lost since.

#2 That's all fine and dandy that you think it might be more exciting to watch what ammounts to Toughman competitions, but you said "I struggle to see a huge void left to fill if Klitschko retired" and then you said there were other fighters who were "good enough" to do what Wlad has done....well which is it? Is it going to be Toughman Competitions or is there someone out there who can dominate the division the way Wlad has What you are suggesting ammounts to boxing blasphemy, it's like someone who drinks Aristocrat Vodka dissing Grey Goose, Stolichnaya, or even Absolute. You want to watch fat out of shape untalented heavyweights be my guest, go to the nearest National Guard Armory and watch to you heart's content....I would rather see SKILL and yes Wlad has skill. You say he needs better competition, it's not Wladimir's job to get his opponent in shape....Wlad is a serious fighter and he takes the game as seriously as Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield or any other great champions and that's why he is where he is right now.

#3 Champions fight less...FACT. Tyson used to fight once a month, but as champion he didn't have to, you only fight that often if you're A) Joe Louis and you KO people with such ease it doesn't matter how often you fight or B) you're building a career. Sure Wladimir COULD fight once a month but after a couple months who would be left Wlad is letting guys like Eddie Chambers develop and get ready for a title fight, that needs to happen, guys need to #1 EARN title shots and #2 Be prepared for title shots. Wlad still fights twice a year for the most part, that's decent...he could have fought more this year but the issues with David Haye kept him from doing so. Be realistic man.

#4 Who do you suggest Wladimir fight You have just ignorantly dismissed the entire division, but that's ok it's a common argument used by haters like you. As for waiting for someone to come along and threaten Wlad.....you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled up first


....end rant

[Mr140]

Hey look i am no fan of Wlad but his skill set is good for his size. People bring up Mayweathers, Hopkins, Jones and few other guy's skill sets, But what they dont bring up is the size that those men are. I saying this and i may be wrong but if Mayweather, Hopkins or Jones were size of Wald there skills would not be much better. I mean when your as big as Wald and he can still move as good as he does that to me is impressive. Because when your a heavyweight your skill set is not the same as the lower weights.

[Mr140]

Also i wouldn't say this is weakest of the era because Rocky, Louis and Holmes eras were pretty shitty as well and people dont complain as much.

[El Kabong]

Mike Tyson's era before Evander Holyfield moved up wasn't all that hot either.

The 1960's-1970's and the 1990's were the deepest era's in the division....Joe Louis ruled so long he went from a deeper division to a thin division to a deeper division, I mean the guy lost to Schmelling in 1936 and didn't lose again until 1950!!!! When Louis started out there were guys around like Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, Jim Braddock, et al, to the bum of the month club and then to Jersey Joe Walcott and eventually Rocky Marciano