How good could Zab have been... if?

[Majesty]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

[killersheep]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

[Majesty]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5

[killersheep]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5

So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?

[killersheep]

Man it's definitely a monday, Arguing with Majesty over trivial comparisons, waiting for him to reply while he keeps revising his history.

[amat]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.

I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.

[Majesty]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5

So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?

Of course he has. How often this season though? and how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?



Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.

[killersheep]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5

So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?

Of course he has. How often this season though? and how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?



Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

[Majesty]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.

I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.

I read just fine. You said "ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players." That is a continuance. If you had said "ALL those teams had more then 1 great player or a bunch of decent players" that would have made more sense but you implied more then one great along with a bunch of decent players. So thats why I asked you what "two great players" are on the team since you implied there was more then one along with a bunch of other decent. So don't tell me to learn to read when your grammar is off your mneaning.


David Robinson? At the time David Robinson won with Duncan he was on his way out and about a relevant as Shaq on the Cavs with LeBron James. And seriously, I don't see Rip Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince or Ben Wallace as "great players". Billups maybe. But if you look at it, the only person on their team to go on and have some sort of great success was Billups. Hamilton and Prince are still on the Pistons but without Billups how far did they get? Even when they had Wallace, Hamilton and Prince on the team without Billups how far did they get? Wallace was on the Cavs even and how far did they get?

What the Pistons were, was a bunch of really good players without one great but knew how to play together to beat the best teams. They didn't need a "STANDOUT GREAT OMG" player because they were all good. They didn't have "two greats" on their team because they didn't need it, they were all very good neither of them had to be "greats" to win a title.


And you say Duncan had Ginobli and Parker. Lebron had Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. And they PASSED UP getting Amare Staudamire in order to keep JJ Hickson so obviously they saw something there.

What it comes down to is exactly what you said, it comes down to a great team philosophy and coach as well.

Detroit Pistons are the perfect example of that, they didn't have a "great" because they had philosophy and teamplay. They didn't need to be "greats" and they aren't, because apart from each other they have done terrible with the exception of Billups and even you can agree on that.


[QUOTE=killersheep;885004]

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

You didn't watch the game did you? Lakers were down by a lot about to head into halftime and Kobe made a steal in the last moments and hit a big time three that cut the lead to 6 and then with .4 seconds left got a steal and put up a shot that would have cut it to 4. Kobe was one of the reasons the Lakers were still in that game and they only lost the lead when he had to sit on the bench in the 3rd quarter because he had his 4th foul which even people were saying today was a bad call, so the 3rd quarter ends a tie score, without kobe they wouldnt have gotten that close. Into the 4th the refs gave Kobe a foul the first 10 seconds in the quarter so he sat most of the 4th quarter in foul trouble. he barely had the chance to play and even when he was in Kobe was the reason they were in that game and made nearly all the plays that kept the Lakers in it when he wasn't on the bench Kobe was the reason the Lakers were in the game despite only having 21 points and being in foul trouble and playing limited minutes, whereas Mo Williams was the reason the Cavs were in the game and if he hadn't scored 20+ points in the first half it would have been a blowout loss for the Cavs against Boston. If you want to compare what Kobe did in game 2 to LeBron playing nearly a full game with less fouls and less shots then be my guest

[killersheep]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5

So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?

Of course he has. How often this season though? and how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?



Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

Here's an interview with Kobe explaining how he just didn't get it done.

"We gave them too many easy baskets and blew too many defensive assignments. That’s it." - Kobe Bryant

Kobe Bryant’s post-Game 2 interview - Lakers blog : The Orange County Register

[Majesty]

Majesty Lebron rarely chokes, if you take him off the Cavs then you have a team the Indiana Pacers could beat in a 7 game series.

Lebron holds imo the single most dominant performance I've ever seen in a team sport playoff game, with that game 6 performance against Detroit. Judah beating Spinks can't touch that The Cavs lose despite Lebron not because of him, how was the Kobe show doing in the couple years after Shaq left before they got Gasol? When has Lebron ever tanked as hard as Kobe did against the Suns a few years ago?

You're talking utter bullshit here, EVERYONE knows Lebron is one of the more tenacious players in the league and in typical starr fashion, you misrepresent things to make your point.

Lebron is one of the 3 best players in the league. He has great talent and is a good player but mentally he doesn't have the make up of a great. Like I said he is made for the regular season. It's wonderful he has all these great performances. But you know, Dominique Wilkins also one of the greatest players of the last 25 years had great scoring and statistical performances, but it didn't get his team a ring.

There is no doubt LeBron has talent. But when it comes time to step up, and get your team a win, in a crucial moment he doesn't. He showed it in the Orlando series last year, and he showed it in the Boston series this year. I'm not the only one who thinks this.

NBA writer skip bayless said it best. "he is a prince james crumbling under the pressure of king james which was put on him."

You can say all you want about how great and tenacious he is. But the fact of the matter is, he has been in the league nearly 8 years, he has only won the eastern conference once. Until he wins a ring he will always be underachieving the accolades put on him since the beginning of his career. it wasnt even him that was saving them in this post season, it was his point guard Mo Williams. In game 1 they were down by a lot, Mo Williams came on in the 4th quarter with about 12 straight points which brought it back for the Cavs and got them that victory. In game 6 the game Lebron got his triple double, Mo Williams made 21 points in the first half to keep the game close while LeBron was absent.


So you can say what you want about how great LeBron is, but if his greatest claim to fame is winning the Eastern Conference once, then he is underachieving and not the "great" everyone tries to make him be.

Let's do some comparisons with Kobe Bryant, which for the sake of argument I will ASSUME (duct tape attached) you consider to not be a choke artist

Post season average per game
Points
Lebron: 29.1
Kobe: 29.0

Field Goal %
Lebron: .502
Kobe: .477

3 point %
Lebron: .400
Kobe: .398

Turn overs
Lebron: 3.8
Kobe: 3.4

So if averaging 1 extra turnover in every 3rd game constitutes dominance from choke artist, I don't know where your comparison holds water man.

I keep saying that LeBron is king of the stats. he can lead in stats which is fine, but Kobe is in the finals and LeBron isn't. Why? Because Kobe didn't get 9 turnovers in the key game of the series. Stats don't factor in the one thing that makes you great, clutch. Kobe in the clutch time steps up, whether he scores 30 or whether he scores 21. When LeBron is in the clutch, he turns over the ball or he misses. That's the point im making. His mentality isn't that of a great. LeBron's stats are great, but if stats meant everything he would have 4 rings by now. What those stats won't tell you is in game 5 a very important game against the Celtics at home, just two games away from looking unstoppable in game 3 where he scored 21 points in the first quarter!! He goes to this game.. and at home, the series is tied 2-2, and the Cavs have the best home season record so they are expected to win especially if LeBron steps up, so LeBron goes into such an important game and.. he shoots the ball only 14 times, makes and makes 3 of them finishing with 15 points and the Cavs lose. Alright people say he had a bad game that he will really really step up in game 6 and show his greatness like he did in game 3. So he goes into game 6, he gets his triple double, but he also has 9 turnovers in key points of the game where he was needed to step up. I just don't know of a great that goes from looking so unstoppable and so great in one game to not doing anything, it's like a switch went off in his head. It's confusing.

Kobe has the MOST turnovers of any NBA player in the playoffs this postseason and has had 4 games with 5 or more turnovers himself the difference in reality is that Kobe is not the Lakers and LeBron is not the Cavs, this is a team sport. If Kobe was on the Cavaliers and Lebron was on the Lakers the entire situation would be completely different.

lets go apples to apples so far, we can keep this going throughout the finals if you want. That way we can compare when the "clutch" games come up.

versus Celtics

Game 1
Points
Lebron: 35
Kobe: 30

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 1

Turnovers
Lebron: 2
Kobe: 4

Game 2
points
Lebron: 24
Kobe: 21

Steals
Lebron: 3
Kobe: 4

Turnovers
Lebron: 5
Kobe: 5

Actually let's do that. But we'd need a seperate thread for that.

Stats aren't everything like I keep saying. This ain't about talent, it's about mentality. And Kobe has a greater winners mentality then LeBron does. Just as Floyd has a better winners mentality then Zab does. You keep bringing up stats and I keep saying and I'll say it again, stats arent everything. I compare Zab to LeBron in their mentality. LeBron will own the stats I keep telling you that. But his mentality isn't that of a great. And if Kobe was on the Cavs it would be completely different, his stats would go up and on the Lakers lebrons would go down. Derek Fisher said it best, the triangle offense is completely different and it's in a controlled offense where everyone is involved if you put Kobe on another team in a customary offense he'd average 40 points an night. If you put Kobe Bryant in the Cavs offense he'd score much more. And if you put LeBron in the Lakers offense he'd score less. That's why Im saying it isn't about stats. It's about who wants it more when the games on the line.

here's a video called "Kobe Bryant most clutch airballs in NBA memories"

I know stats stats stats...............duct tape aside though stats show unbiased results. Lebron has a bad game, that doesn't mean he falls apart like Judah has in championship rounds.

here is a vid on LeBron about the game 5

So can I infer from your response that Bryant has not choked in a clutch situation?

Of course he has. How often this season though? and how often in the playoffs in pivotal games lately has he?



Thats just this year. Ask yourself this, at the end of the game hwo would you rather give the ball to, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

Here's an interview with Kobe explaining how he just didn't get it done.

"We gave them too many easy baskets and blew too many defensive assignments. That’s it." - Kobe Bryant

Kobe Bryant’s post-Game 2 interview - Lakers blog : The Orange County Register

Kobe doesn't complain about the refs, thats Phil's job However on ESPN today and on Around the Horn etc all they were talking about were how the refs tried to overly take over the game and gave them a lot of critisism, just because Kobe took the high road and decided to say "thats it" and "I dont expect to pick up 5 fouls next game" doesn't mean the calls weren't bad.

The only issue i really have with the Lakers is, with as many good players as they have, they depend on Kobe to bail them out too much.

Like with the Cavs lets say LeBron is having a bad game, usually someone else steps up, Jamison goes and has a good game, or Mo Williams goes on and has a good game, LeBron's supporting cast does what they are supposed to do whenever LeBron isn't on the floor.

However with the Lakers, once Kobe leaves you expect all these guys like Gasol, Odom, Fisher etc to step up but it doesn't seem to flow or happen unless Kobe checks himself back in. That's pretty much what I saw last night.

A lot seems to change in a year. Last year they were saying Lakers had the best bench in basketball and that was the reason for their success. And they said Cleveland had a weak bench and thats why they failed.

This year the Lakers only change one player. And then the opinion goes the Lakers don't have a good bench and that the Cavaliers had the best bench and basketball and were the favorites for a title.

A lot seems to change in a year.

[killersheep]

[QUOTE=Majesty;885005]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.

I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.

I read just fine. You said "ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players." That is a continuance. If you had said "ALL those teams had more then 1 great player or a bunch of decent players" that would have made more sense but you implied more then one great along with a bunch of decent players. So thats why I asked you what "two great players" are on the team since you implied there was more then one along with a bunch of other decent. So don't tell me to learn to read when your grammar is off your mneaning.


David Robinson? At the time David Robinson won with Duncan he was on his way out and about a relevant as Shaq on the Cavs with LeBron James. And seriously, I don't see Rip Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince or Ben Wallace as "great players". Billups maybe. But if you look at it, the only person on their team to go on and have some sort of great success was Billups. Hamilton and Prince are still on the Pistons but without Billups how far did they get? Even when they had Wallace, Hamilton and Prince on the team without Billups how far did they get? Wallace was on the Cavs even and how far did they get?

What the Pistons were, was a bunch of really good players without one great but knew how to play together to beat the best teams. They didn't need a "STANDOUT GREAT OMG" player because they were all good. They didn't have "two greats" on their team because they didn't need it, they were all very good neither of them had to be "greats" to win a title.


And you say Duncan had Ginobli and Parker. Lebron had Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. And they PASSED UP getting Amare Staudamire in order to keep JJ Hickson so obviously they saw something there.

What it comes down to is exactly what you said, it comes down to a great team philosophy and coach as well.

Detroit Pistons are the perfect example of that, they didn't have a "great" because they had philosophy and teamplay. They didn't need to be "greats" and they aren't, because apart from each other they have done terrible with the exception of Billups and even you can agree on that.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

You didn't watch the game did you? Lakers were down by a lot about to head into halftime and Kobe made a steal in the last moments and hit a big time three that cut the lead to 6 and then with .4 seconds left got a steal and put up a shot that would have cut it to 4. Kobe was one of the reasons the Lakers were still in that game and they only lost the lead when he had to sit on the bench in the 3rd quarter because he had his 4th foul which even people were saying today was a bad call, so the 3rd quarter ends a tie score, without kobe they wouldnt have gotten that close. Into the 4th the refs gave Kobe a foul the first 10 seconds in the quarter so he sat most of the 4th quarter in foul trouble. he barely had the chance to play and even when he was in Kobe was the reason they were in that game and made nearly all the plays that kept the Lakers in it when he wasn't on the bench Kobe was the reason the Lakers were in the game despite only having 21 points and being in foul trouble and playing limited minutes, whereas Mo Williams was the reason the Cavs were in the game and if he hadn't scored 20+ points in the first half it would have been a blowout loss for the Cavs against Boston. If you want to compare what Kobe did in game 2 to LeBron playing nearly a full game with less fouls and less shots then be my guest

So since he was playing limited minutes does that mean the 5 turnovers and a solid attempt to foul out count stronger?

[Majesty]

[QUOTE=killersheep;885010]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.

I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.

I read just fine. You said "ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players." That is a continuance. If you had said "ALL those teams had more then 1 great player or a bunch of decent players" that would have made more sense but you implied more then one great along with a bunch of decent players. So thats why I asked you what "two great players" are on the team since you implied there was more then one along with a bunch of other decent. So don't tell me to learn to read when your grammar is off your mneaning.


David Robinson? At the time David Robinson won with Duncan he was on his way out and about a relevant as Shaq on the Cavs with LeBron James. And seriously, I don't see Rip Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince or Ben Wallace as "great players". Billups maybe. But if you look at it, the only person on their team to go on and have some sort of great success was Billups. Hamilton and Prince are still on the Pistons but without Billups how far did they get? Even when they had Wallace, Hamilton and Prince on the team without Billups how far did they get? Wallace was on the Cavs even and how far did they get?

What the Pistons were, was a bunch of really good players without one great but knew how to play together to beat the best teams. They didn't need a "STANDOUT GREAT OMG" player because they were all good. They didn't have "two greats" on their team because they didn't need it, they were all very good neither of them had to be "greats" to win a title.


And you say Duncan had Ginobli and Parker. Lebron had Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. And they PASSED UP getting Amare Staudamire in order to keep JJ Hickson so obviously they saw something there.

What it comes down to is exactly what you said, it comes down to a great team philosophy and coach as well.

Detroit Pistons are the perfect example of that, they didn't have a "great" because they had philosophy and teamplay. They didn't need to be "greats" and they aren't, because apart from each other they have done terrible with the exception of Billups and even you can agree on that.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

You didn't watch the game did you? Lakers were down by a lot about to head into halftime and Kobe made a steal in the last moments and hit a big time three that cut the lead to 6 and then with .4 seconds left got a steal and put up a shot that would have cut it to 4. Kobe was one of the reasons the Lakers were still in that game and they only lost the lead when he had to sit on the bench in the 3rd quarter because he had his 4th foul which even people were saying today was a bad call, so the 3rd quarter ends a tie score, without kobe they wouldnt have gotten that close. Into the 4th the refs gave Kobe a foul the first 10 seconds in the quarter so he sat most of the 4th quarter in foul trouble. he barely had the chance to play and even when he was in Kobe was the reason they were in that game and made nearly all the plays that kept the Lakers in it when he wasn't on the bench Kobe was the reason the Lakers were in the game despite only having 21 points and being in foul trouble and playing limited minutes, whereas Mo Williams was the reason the Cavs were in the game and if he hadn't scored 20+ points in the first half it would have been a blowout loss for the Cavs against Boston. If you want to compare what Kobe did in game 2 to LeBron playing nearly a full game with less fouls and less shots then be my guest

So since he was playing limited minutes does that mean the 5 turnovers and a solid attempt to foul out count stronger?

A solid attempt to foulout? What's that mean?

And no since he played limited minutes means just that he wasn't out there to produce. LeBron was out ther to produce.

if LeBron was sitting on the bench for most of the game with 5 fouls alright id give you that. But he was out there most of the game. Kobe barely was in the game but when he was he was the reason they brought the Lakers back. LeBron was out there most of the game but didn't produce.

Do you get what Im saying? Its comparing being out there, and not producing, to barely being out there but still producing. LeBron was out there for an extended period of time not producing, Kobe didn't have a lot of time, but when he had time he was producing to the best he could. Get what Im saying?

You should really watch the games. If I could find them online i'd show you in a PM. But it comes down to this, if Kobe was in that game as long as LeBron was in his, would the Lakers have won?

[killersheep]

[QUOTE=Majesty;885014]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.

I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.

I read just fine. You said "ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players." That is a continuance. If you had said "ALL those teams had more then 1 great player or a bunch of decent players" that would have made more sense but you implied more then one great along with a bunch of decent players. So thats why I asked you what "two great players" are on the team since you implied there was more then one along with a bunch of other decent. So don't tell me to learn to read when your grammar is off your mneaning.


David Robinson? At the time David Robinson won with Duncan he was on his way out and about a relevant as Shaq on the Cavs with LeBron James. And seriously, I don't see Rip Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince or Ben Wallace as "great players". Billups maybe. But if you look at it, the only person on their team to go on and have some sort of great success was Billups. Hamilton and Prince are still on the Pistons but without Billups how far did they get? Even when they had Wallace, Hamilton and Prince on the team without Billups how far did they get? Wallace was on the Cavs even and how far did they get?

What the Pistons were, was a bunch of really good players without one great but knew how to play together to beat the best teams. They didn't need a "STANDOUT GREAT OMG" player because they were all good. They didn't have "two greats" on their team because they didn't need it, they were all very good neither of them had to be "greats" to win a title.


And you say Duncan had Ginobli and Parker. Lebron had Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. And they PASSED UP getting Amare Staudamire in order to keep JJ Hickson so obviously they saw something there.

What it comes down to is exactly what you said, it comes down to a great team philosophy and coach as well.

Detroit Pistons are the perfect example of that, they didn't have a "great" because they had philosophy and teamplay. They didn't need to be "greats" and they aren't, because apart from each other they have done terrible with the exception of Billups and even you can agree on that.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

You didn't watch the game did you? Lakers were down by a lot about to head into halftime and Kobe made a steal in the last moments and hit a big time three that cut the lead to 6 and then with .4 seconds left got a steal and put up a shot that would have cut it to 4. Kobe was one of the reasons the Lakers were still in that game and they only lost the lead when he had to sit on the bench in the 3rd quarter because he had his 4th foul which even people were saying today was a bad call, so the 3rd quarter ends a tie score, without kobe they wouldnt have gotten that close. Into the 4th the refs gave Kobe a foul the first 10 seconds in the quarter so he sat most of the 4th quarter in foul trouble. he barely had the chance to play and even when he was in Kobe was the reason they were in that game and made nearly all the plays that kept the Lakers in it when he wasn't on the bench Kobe was the reason the Lakers were in the game despite only having 21 points and being in foul trouble and playing limited minutes, whereas Mo Williams was the reason the Cavs were in the game and if he hadn't scored 20+ points in the first half it would have been a blowout loss for the Cavs against Boston. If you want to compare what Kobe did in game 2 to LeBron playing nearly a full game with less fouls and less shots then be my guest

So since he was playing limited minutes does that mean the 5 turnovers and a solid attempt to foul out count stronger?

A solid attempt to foulout? What's that mean?

And no since he played limited minutes means just that he wasn't out there to produce. LeBron was out ther to produce.

if LeBron was sitting on the bench for most of the game with 5 fouls alright id give you that. But he was out there most of the game. Kobe barely was in the game but when he was he was the reason they brought the Lakers back. LeBron was out there most of the game but didn't produce.

Do you get what Im saying? Its comparing being out there, and not producing, to barely being out there but still producing. LeBron was out there for an extended period of time not producing, Kobe didn't have a lot of time, but when he had time he was producing to the best he could. Get what Im saying?

You should really watch the games. If I could find them online i'd show you in a PM.

No I don't get what you are saying because you said the reason Lebron choked was because of turnovers, but when Kobe does what would be more is scaled out over an entire game it doesn't matter because he put up points and got some steals, however when we were talking about Lebron it didn't matter that he scored a lot of points it was the turnovers, maybe losing a home game before going on the road for the next three games doesn't count as a clutch game, I don't know where you are coming from. Is Kobe better in the clutch than Lebron? Sure he is, now on to the by how much well given an option of top 5 players to be on my team Lebron is still up there. In the championship rounds does Judah make my top 10 welter weights absolutely not.

Furthermore, the entire critical point is Judah is a man in a ring against one opponent, whereas Lebron has 4 team mates that can contribute both positively and negatively to the outcome.

[Majesty]

[QUOTE=killersheep;885019]

Lakers
Celtics
Spurs
Heat
Pistons
Bulls

Those are the last 6 franchises to win the finals Majesty, ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players. If Kobe won a title without Gasol/Shaq or Jordan did it without Pippen then yeah maybe you have a point but NO, you don't.

Who are the 3 current great players in the league btw? Kobe/Lebron/Howard?

the 3 current greats players in the league are Kobe/Lebron/ and at 3 id say its tied between Wade, and Durant, but Durant is just getting started. I wouldn't put Howard up there because he is great defensively but he doesn't really have that "take over a game" mentality that Wade does, so I'd put Wade over him.


And as far as the part I bolded, Who are the great players Detroit had? In fact they BEAT the Lakers when they had Malone, Payton, Kobe, and Shaq. So I don't think that's the recipe. And who did the Spurs have besides Tim Duncan that you'd consider a great? I think your theory is a bit flawed that ALL those teams needed two greats to win it. it ain't about how many greats you have on your team. One great can do it, it all depends on how you can get everyone else involved and how you take over a game. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe won 3 titles in a row. But they lost the 4th year to the Spurs with only one great, Tim Duncan. You don't need TWO GREATS to win a championship.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I said "more then 1 great player and a bunch of decent players' NOT 2 great players! Learn to read man and don't go bolding half of my sentence. LEBRON DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ANOTHER ALL STAR ON HIS TEAM. Your Pistons comment is IDIOTIC to say the least, they had 4 of their starting 5 in the all star game and the 5th guy was Tayshaun Prince who is a solid solid player. Tim Duncan first had David Robinson and then he had Ginobli and Parker and a great team philosophy with a great coach. You're bblaming team performances on Lebron and comparing it to Judah who has no one to blame but himself.

I don't know how you decide what people you like or don't like but when your mind is made up you will play these BS arguments deflecting points and focusing on half sentences or one word, garbage spin doctoring. Killersheep, keep on going. Majesty, you are an idiot and you've driven me out of this thread, glad you'll get the last word in surely in your head that will mean you won this argument I'm sure.

I read just fine. You said "ALL of those teams had more then 1 great player and bunch of decent players." That is a continuance. If you had said "ALL those teams had more then 1 great player or a bunch of decent players" that would have made more sense but you implied more then one great along with a bunch of decent players. So thats why I asked you what "two great players" are on the team since you implied there was more then one along with a bunch of other decent. So don't tell me to learn to read when your grammar is off your mneaning.


David Robinson? At the time David Robinson won with Duncan he was on his way out and about a relevant as Shaq on the Cavs with LeBron James. And seriously, I don't see Rip Hamilton, or Tayshaun Prince or Ben Wallace as "great players". Billups maybe. But if you look at it, the only person on their team to go on and have some sort of great success was Billups. Hamilton and Prince are still on the Pistons but without Billups how far did they get? Even when they had Wallace, Hamilton and Prince on the team without Billups how far did they get? Wallace was on the Cavs even and how far did they get?

What the Pistons were, was a bunch of really good players without one great but knew how to play together to beat the best teams. They didn't need a "STANDOUT GREAT OMG" player because they were all good. They didn't have "two greats" on their team because they didn't need it, they were all very good neither of them had to be "greats" to win a title.


And you say Duncan had Ginobli and Parker. Lebron had Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison. And they PASSED UP getting Amare Staudamire in order to keep JJ Hickson so obviously they saw something there.

What it comes down to is exactly what you said, it comes down to a great team philosophy and coach as well.

Detroit Pistons are the perfect example of that, they didn't have a "great" because they had philosophy and teamplay. They didn't need to be "greats" and they aren't, because apart from each other they have done terrible with the exception of Billups and even you can agree on that.

Game 2 against the Celtics, hows that? Recent enough?

You didn't watch the game did you? Lakers were down by a lot about to head into halftime and Kobe made a steal in the last moments and hit a big time three that cut the lead to 6 and then with .4 seconds left got a steal and put up a shot that would have cut it to 4. Kobe was one of the reasons the Lakers were still in that game and they only lost the lead when he had to sit on the bench in the 3rd quarter because he had his 4th foul which even people were saying today was a bad call, so the 3rd quarter ends a tie score, without kobe they wouldnt have gotten that close. Into the 4th the refs gave Kobe a foul the first 10 seconds in the quarter so he sat most of the 4th quarter in foul trouble. he barely had the chance to play and even when he was in Kobe was the reason they were in that game and made nearly all the plays that kept the Lakers in it when he wasn't on the bench Kobe was the reason the Lakers were in the game despite only having 21 points and being in foul trouble and playing limited minutes, whereas Mo Williams was the reason the Cavs were in the game and if he hadn't scored 20+ points in the first half it would have been a blowout loss for the Cavs against Boston. If you want to compare what Kobe did in game 2 to LeBron playing nearly a full game with less fouls and less shots then be my guest

So since he was playing limited minutes does that mean the 5 turnovers and a solid attempt to foul out count stronger?

A solid attempt to foulout? What's that mean?

And no since he played limited minutes means just that he wasn't out there to produce. LeBron was out ther to produce.

if LeBron was sitting on the bench for most of the game with 5 fouls alright id give you that. But he was out there most of the game. Kobe barely was in the game but when he was he was the reason they brought the Lakers back. LeBron was out there most of the game but didn't produce.

Do you get what Im saying? Its comparing being out there, and not producing, to barely being out there but still producing. LeBron was out there for an extended period of time not producing, Kobe didn't have a lot of time, but when he had time he was producing to the best he could. Get what Im saying?

You should really watch the games. If I could find them online i'd show you in a PM.

No I don't get what you are saying because you said the reason Lebron choked was because of turnovers, but when Kobe does what would be more is scaled out over an entire game it doesn't matter because he put up points and got some steals, however when we were talking about Lebron it didn't matter that he scored a lot of points it was the turnovers, maybe losing a home game before going on the road for the next three games doesn't count as a clutch game, I don't know where you are coming from. Is Kobe better in the clutch than Lebron? Sure he is, now on to the by how much well given an option of top 5 players to be on my team Lebron is still up there. In the championship rounds does Judah make my top 10 welter weights absolutely not.

Furthermore, the entire critical point is Judah is a man in a ring against one opponent, whereas Lebron has 4 team mates that can contribute both positively and negatively to the outcome.

And the critical point of comparison I make with Zab and LeBron is that.

They were both hyped as the next one.

They both have underachieved so far in their career in terms of the expectations put on them.

They both have had their mentality questioned because ever since their careers started they were put in the same breath as the greats. But have yet to show the mentality of them.

The difference is, LeBron is still in his 20s and could still prove everyone wrong and win some rings and still go out with a great career. He has the talent to do it. But Lebron won't ever live up to the huge expectations put on him(the next MJ the greatest basketball player in the last 10 years in this era etc etc and honetly who could?) but there is still time for LeBron to accomplish great things in the playoffs and the finals.

But to get back on the subject of Zab Judah, since you and I can debate NBA back and forth in PMs. This is what I think about Zab.

Zab Judah is in his 30s and is never gonna live up to what people think he will and the next time he steps up he is gonna get beat again and his career will be over.

Zab Judah has become the standard of talent never making it to the top truly.

LeBron James still has a lot of time, 10 more years maybe even, and I hope for his sake and his fans sake that he doesnt 'Zab Judah' his career.

But Zab's career is done. LeBrons is just beginning so thats the major difference.

Still, my point about Zab stills stands, batman talent, robin mentality.