Final thoughts on Pac-JMM III

[ICB]

Well i still stand by my opinion that it wasn't that close, and IMO it was JMM's clearest win over Manny Pacquiao. As i've said in multiple threads Freddie Roach told Manny Pacquiao he needed to KO JMM in the last round, also who looked like the winner when the bell rung ?

Manny Pacquiao and there team thought that because JMM was 38, and because he had some trouble with Katsidis, Diaz. And also because they thought they would have an advantage with the weight.

They believed that would be able to get rid of JMM in impressive fashion, to set-up the big money fight with Mayweather/Pacquiao. But JMM didn't follow the gameplan and made Manny Pacquiao look just as bad as he had in there previous 2 meetings.

But there's no way JMM would of ever have got the decision no matter what he done really, unless he dominated Manny Pacquiao from pillar to post. Because there's too money to be made from a Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

I feel bad for JMM the only fight he has legitmately lost IMO is too Floyd Mayweather Jr, and that was at a higher weightclass.

[badr_hari]

Well i still stand by my opinion it wasn't that close, and IMO it was JMM's clearest win over Manny Pacquiao.

My thoughts too. 9-3 or hell even 8-4 is not close. A clear Marquez win.
Lots of experts trying to break down their ideas now, but its not that important. See Pacquiao's face immediately after the final bell and decide whether it is a winner's face or not.

[Dench]

Well i still stand by my opinion that it wasn't that close, and IMO it was JMM's clearest win over Manny Pacquiao. As i've said in multiple threads Freddie Roach told Manny Pacquiao he needed to KO JMM in the last round, also who looked like the winner when the bell rung ?

Manny Pacquiao and there team thought that because JMM was 38, and because he had some trouble with Katsidis, Diaz. And also because they thought they would have an advantage with the weight.
They believed that would be able to get rid of JMM in impressive fashion, to set-up the big money fight with Mayweather/Pacquiao. But JMM didn't follow the gameplan and made Manny Pacquiao look just as bad as he had in there previous 2 meetings.

But there's no way JMM would of ever have got the decision no matter what he done really, unless he dominated Manny Pacquiao from pillar to post. Because there's too money to be made from a Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

I feel bad for JMM the only fight he has legitmately lost IMO is too Floyd Mayweather Jr, and that was at a higher weightclass.

I respect your opinion, but I will have counter some of your statements.
First was:

As i've said in multiple threads Freddie Roach told Manny Pacquiao he needed to KO JMM in the last round, also who looked like the winner when the bell rung ?

Manny Pacquiao and there team thought that because JMM was 38, and because he had some trouble with Katsidis, Diaz. And also because they thought they would have an advantage with the weight.

As I have mentioned before on my past posts, prior to the fight, people's expectations on Pac are at a high due to several factors - the disadvantage of JMM on weight and age, the trend of pac's last 5 fights on higher weight class, the improvement of pac, the statement made by JMM claiming he was robbed twice, the statement of pacman that he will end all doubts via KO-- these all plays into our minds over and over up until the 1st round of the fight. It is very evident that in your comment, you were able to mention some of it thus concluding that you, like me, are looking at total domination of pac over JMM prior to the fight. But in my case, I saw pac losing because he wasnt able to "dominate" a guy like marquez. After replays of the fight, I was convinced that pac won it on close fashion. Even though he wasnt able to dominate the guy, even though he was been tagged by clean shots, even though he lost sevaral rounds to JMM-- I dont think it was enough to conclude that pac lost.

As for Pac's reaction after the fight, at first I thought he was thinking that he lost the fight. He was sad and all that. But hey, it is not automatically mean admission of defeat. Roach and pac team claiming that JMM will get his ass whopped, but JMM proved to be tougher than ever. Pac wasnt able to dominate as expected, and so they have eaten their own words. How would you feel in an instance like that?


Second,

But there's no way JMM would of ever have got the decision no matter what he done really, unless he dominated Manny Pacquiao from pillar to post. Because there's too money to be made from a Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

You are right on the money. I think JMM knows this from the very beginning, that in order for him to beat Pac, he should KO the guy or at least battered him in the ring. He needs to "dominate". But did he dominated pac? 80% of answers will be YES -- but hey, this is because he did the unthinkable, the unexpected, the impossible -- to stay with pac, fight him toe-to-toe, and give pac a run for his money -- something no one has ever done in 3 years or 7 fights. Now I ask all of you, was it all enough to make him a winner, well yes, no one got *that close to Pac. Was that enough to make him the champion, NO. Because even if JMM exceeded far from our expectations and wildest dreams, he wasn able to beat Pac convincingly, period.

Marquez had his nerves when he asked everyone on the interview "what else can I do to beat Pac?" He knows it, and he wasnt able to do it, or even tried to -- to Knock pac out. After 36 rounds, he wasnt able to hit pac and knocked him down. What about that? He knows he cant win if he will not dominate, but did he dominate pac? No. He simply step up to give pac a challenge and didnt try "step over" pac. Thats the reason he lost.

[Mar]

I don't think there's a wrong answer to who won this fight. It was close either way everyones pic is an opinion just like the judges except there's is the only one that matters.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

I don't think there's a wrong answer to who won this fight. It was close either way everyones pic is an opinion just like the judges except there's is the only one that matters.

I think that comment should be the final thought on Pac-Jmm III and should end the argument.

[Chino]

I don't think there's a wrong answer to who won this fight. It was close either way everyones pic is an opinion just like the judges except there's is the only one that matters.

I think that comment should be the final thought on Pac-Jmm III and should end the argument.

I guess this applies as well to the judges decisions for Chavez vs Whitaker, Lewis vs Holyfield, etc.
Regardless of the decisions, people seeing JMM “win” (again), commentators/experts questioning the decision, etc. Pac disappointed and he and his team were disappointed as well. Here we had a guy that was supposed to destroy/annihilate JMM in 3 or 5 rounds and what a surprise. JMM having all odds against him (weight, one of them) but his performance showed the opposite.

[Mars_ax]

I don't think there's a wrong answer to who won this fight. It was close either way everyones pic is an opinion just like the judges except there's is the only one that matters.

I think that comment should be the final thought on Pac-Jmm III and should end the argument.

I guess this applies as well to the judges decisions for Chavez vs Whitaker, Lewis vs Holyfield, etc.
Regardless of the decisions, people seeing JMM “win” (again), commentators/experts questioning the decision, etc. Pac disappointed and he and his team were disappointed as well. Here we had a guy that was supposed to destroy/annihilate JMM in 3 or 5 rounds and what a surprise. JMM having all odds against him (weight, one of them) but his performance showed the opposite.

Right, it was a hell of a performance by Marquez, one that Roach, Pacquiao, and even some of Juan's fans never expected. And yeah, Pacquiao was expected to blitz right though JMM, and when the fight became competitive and close many saw Marquez winning, but i'm not one of them.

What seems to get overlooked by the "experts" is, this wasn't that bad of a performance by Pacquiao against what turned out to be a very tough opponent for him. Look at the punch stats for the fight, and number of punches landed, if I remember right Pac outlanded Marquez at least 2-1. Pac was also the effective aggressor most of the fight, forcing the action.
Everyone has a right to a reasonable opinion about this fight, and neither man dominated the other. I just believe however that Pacquiao won the fight simply by being busier.

P.S. All this whining about Marquez clearly winning and/or getting "robbed" is rubbish.

[Chino]

I don't think there's a wrong answer to who won this fight. It was close either way everyones pic is an opinion just like the judges except there's is the only one that matters.

I think that comment should be the final thought on Pac-Jmm III and should end the argument.

I guess this applies as well to the judges decisions for Chavez vs Whitaker, Lewis vs Holyfield, etc.
Regardless of the decisions, people seeing JMM “win” (again), commentators/experts questioning the decision, etc. Pac disappointed and he and his team were disappointed as well. Here we had a guy that was supposed to destroy/annihilate JMM in 3 or 5 rounds and what a surprise. JMM having all odds against him (weight, one of them) but his performance showed the opposite.

Right, it was a hell of a performance by Marquez, one that Roach, Pacquiao, and even some of Juan's fans never expected. And yeah, Pacquiao was expected to blitz right though JMM, and when the fight became competitive and close many saw Marquez winning, but i'm not one of them.

What seems to get overlooked by the "experts" is, this wasn't that bad of a performance by Pacquiao against what turned out to be a very tough opponent for him. Look at the punch stats for the fight, and number of punches landed, if I remember right Pac outlanded Marquez at least 2-1. Pac was also the effective aggressor most of the fight, forcing the action.
Everyone has a right to a reasonable opinion about this fight, and neither man dominated the other. I just believe however that Pacquiao won the fight simply by being busier.

P.S. All this whining about Marquez clearly winning and/or getting "robbed" is rubbish.

De La Hoya was the aggressor vs Mayweather and that didn't give him the win while Mayweather would throw few accurate punches per round. Something comparable to what happened with Pac vs JMM III. Only difference is that JMM landed MORE than just a couple of accurate punches per round.

[ICB]

Well i still stand by my opinion that it wasn't that close, and IMO it was JMM's clearest win over Manny Pacquiao. As i've said in multiple threads Freddie Roach told Manny Pacquiao he needed to KO JMM in the last round, also who looked like the winner when the bell rung ?

Manny Pacquiao and there team thought that because JMM was 38, and because he had some trouble with Katsidis, Diaz. And also because they thought they would have an advantage with the weight.
They believed that would be able to get rid of JMM in impressive fashion, to set-up the big money fight with Mayweather/Pacquiao. But JMM didn't follow the gameplan and made Manny Pacquiao look just as bad as he had in there previous 2 meetings.

But there's no way JMM would of ever have got the decision no matter what he done really, unless he dominated Manny Pacquiao from pillar to post. Because there's too money to be made from a Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

I feel bad for JMM the only fight he has legitmately lost IMO is too Floyd Mayweather Jr, and that was at a higher weightclass.

I respect your opinion, but I will have counter some of your statements.
First was:

As i've said in multiple threads Freddie Roach told Manny Pacquiao he needed to KO JMM in the last round, also who looked like the winner when the bell rung ?

Manny Pacquiao and there team thought that because JMM was 38, and because he had some trouble with Katsidis, Diaz. And also because they thought they would have an advantage with the weight.

As I have mentioned before on my past posts, prior to the fight, people's expectations on Pac are at a high due to several factors - the disadvantage of JMM on weight and age, the trend of pac's last 5 fights on higher weight class, the improvement of pac, the statement made by JMM claiming he was robbed twice, the statement of pacman that he will end all doubts via KO-- these all plays into our minds over and over up until the 1st round of the fight. It is very evident that in your comment, you were able to mention some of it thus concluding that you, like me, are looking at total domination of pac over JMM prior to the fight. But in my case, I saw pac losing because he wasnt able to "dominate" a guy like marquez. After replays of the fight, I was convinced that pac won it on close fashion. Even though he wasnt able to dominate the guy, even though he was been tagged by clean shots, even though he lost sevaral rounds to JMM-- I dont think it was enough to conclude that pac lost.

As for Pac's reaction after the fight, at first I thought he was thinking that he lost the fight. He was sad and all that. But hey, it is not automatically mean admission of defeat. Roach and pac team claiming that JMM will get his ass whopped, but JMM proved to be tougher than ever. Pac wasnt able to dominate as expected, and so they have eaten their own words. How would you feel in an instance like that?


Second,

But there's no way JMM would of ever have got the decision no matter what he done really, unless he dominated Manny Pacquiao from pillar to post. Because there's too money to be made from a Pacquiao/Mayweather fight.

You are right on the money. I think JMM knows this from the very beginning, that in order for him to beat Pac, he should KO the guy or at least battered him in the ring. He needs to "dominate". But did he dominated pac? 80% of answers will be YES -- but hey, this is because he did the unthinkable, the unexpected, the impossible -- to stay with pac, fight him toe-to-toe, and give pac a run for his money -- something no one has ever done in 3 years or 7 fights. Now I ask all of you, was it all enough to make him a winner, well yes, no one got *that close to Pac. Was that enough to make him the champion, NO. Because even if JMM exceeded far from our expectations and wildest dreams, he wasn able to beat Pac convincingly, period.

Marquez had his nerves when he asked everyone on the interview "what else can I do to beat Pac?" He knows it, and he wasnt able to do it, or even tried to -- to Knock pac out. After 36 rounds, he wasnt able to hit pac and knocked him down. What about that? He knows he cant win if he will not dominate, but did he dominate pac? No. He simply step up to give pac a challenge and didnt try "step over" pac. Thats the reason he lost.

Since when do you have to dominate a fighter to win the fight ? can't you just win it the old fashion way by just plain winning more rounds and outboxing your opponent ? it's very hard to dominate a great fighter in there prime.

Ask yourself this did Manny Pacquaio dominate JMM ? no. So how come's he got the decision then ? isn't that contradicting just because Manny Pacquiao is a more well known fighter. He should get the benefit of the doubt ? im sorry but that's BS.

To me it looked like Manny Pacquaio, was the one who fought the most cautious fight he had ever fought against JMM. So he obviously wasn't looking to dominate or "step over" JMM as you pointed out.

All you've done is basically point out what's wrong with boxing.

[Dench]

Since when do you have to dominate a fighter to win the fight ?

Since people started to consider that close fights like this trilogy is a robbery either way depending on the fighter they personally favor.

can't you just win it the old fashion way by just plain winning more rounds and outboxing your opponent ?

Actually, there's a dilemma here. Yes you can try to box your way, be carefull, be defensive, cautious and try to win rounds. But in this case (of pac-jmm) people are looking at their own perspective. And winning is all about convincing the people who's the better fighter.

it's very hard to dominate a great fighter in there prime.

True. Thats why when two greats fight, they will remain greats win or lose. Pac was considered to be the greater fighter than JMM (with all accomplishments, and disadvantage going into the fight), and yes its very hard to dominate a fighter like pac, and JMM knows that. Thats the challenge there, if you cant dominate this fighter here then you cant and wont be able to take his place.

Ask yourself this did Manny Pacquaio dominate JMM ? no. So how come's he got the decision then ?

I say No. Pac never dominated JMM. He was expected to dominate JMM (again because of disadvantages of JMM going into the fight), but he fails. Why he failed? Because JMM gives him a lot of trouble, and that will always be the case whenever they fight. With JMM pac skills are taken into the most strenuous test. The last fight we never saw JMM took a bad beating or even a KD from Pac. So now why did pac got the decision? Go back to the old times (like what you said), and look for the one who initiate, the one who was busy, the one who connects more. Review the tapes and you will see, pac is connecting more, JMM was connecting clean. Pac connects like 10 punches a round with left leads and hooks, JMM counters 7-8 very clean punches. But then again its still 7 or 8 and 10 is greater than both.

isn't that contradicting just because Manny Pacquiao is a more well known fighter. He should get the benefit of the doubt ? im sorry but that's BS.

For fans like us, it s BS crap. But taking a closer look from a different perspective, it makes sense. Pac becomes well known because he fought his way to the top by dominating the fighters up in weight. For someone to bump him out of the spot, he must try to do what pac has done to the man before him. And JMM fails miserably in that context. He was there and showed he can fight pac from end to finish, but not to topple the man out.

To me it looked like Manny Pacquaio, was the one who fought the most cautious fight he had ever fought against JMM. So he obviously wasn't looking to dominate or "step over" JMM as you pointed out.

Most cautious? He was tagged by clean punches all the way, those punches landed because he is fighting a counter puncher. And if pac doesnt choose to initiate a fight, will marquez be able to land or even make a counter punch?

Add the fact that the head butt he had was inflicted when he charged in on an exchange -- something you wont do if you are cautious. And after the head butt, with a big crack on his eye brow, did he changed his phase and switched to being cautious?

[Leighton]

First fight I had Pac ahead but had three drawing rounds so could have been a draw.
Second fight I had Marquez up by one round but that could have been a draw because there was a couple of close rounds.
Third fight I had Marquez up by three rounds. I will watch the fight again with the sound turned down but I dont think it will change my mind. I saw Marquez winning easy. The commentators say Marquez winning and the Guys in the studio saw it too. Even Khan saw that Marquez was winning but changed his tone at the end when he found out Pac won.
And above all the defeated look on Pacs face said it all. He knew he didnt win but when he got the decision he was happy with it anyway.
As for a Mayweather super fight I think that it is a waste of time. Pac has slowed down in his last three fights and I think he is passed his best. I see and easy win for Mayweather.