Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?

[Andre]

Seriously can you not see how retarded this idea of yours is?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So anyone one that doesn't agree with you is silly and retarded? And here I thought that miles was the only condescending, know it all, asshole on this forum. - debate/discussion over.

It's not about agreeing with me. Claiming Jesus never existed is like me saying dinosaurs never existed. It IS moronic.

Just think it through logically.

The Jews were no friends of the Christians, who they saw as an heretical cult. They also lived in Israel for hundreds of years, and most were not very socially mobile, thus living in villages for generations.

How is it possible for someone to invent a character 50/60 years previously,make grandiose claims of miraculous healings, thousands of followers, a public execution and then a claimed resurrection and then place him in the very villages that these Jews are living.

Do you not think that some of them might go 'Hang on a minute, we are living here at the time, this bloke never came around our way!'.

Again I ask you, if they made him up 50 years later, why did the Jewish people collude in this grand delusion and seemingly accept that this man really did live, even though presumably nobody had any memory of him whatsoever?

If this really is the extent of your though on this matter, then I repeat it is retarded.

No offence of course.


The birth of the Christian church is proof positive of the existence of the historical figure of Christ. It simply never would have got off the ground had the whole story been fabricated out of thin air.

Now I'm not saying anything concerning the Bible being true, or the gospels accurately portraying him, that is a matter of faith. But it cannot seriously be debated that he didn't exist at all.

The Jewish religion was originally against the Desposni. When Rome took over the practices from those who had been taught by the Desposni, then they were called Christian. They never took over the Desposni, as they went underground the Roman Church then took over and sculptured their way: Pauline Christianity.

Desposyni Church | Welcome

[Andre]

"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.

Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.

What kind of evidence would convince you though?

It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.

The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?

It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.

It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.

You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.

Obviously something massive went down, otherwise we would not have the dates as BC and AD.

[VictorCharlie]

"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.

Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.

Could one not also state that there is no secular historical evidence confirming he didn't exist? Also you didn't answer my question. What percentage of historians believe Jesus to be a fictional character?

[VictorCharlie]

Seriously, your putting Bilbo on ignore for calling you a retard? You got to have thicker skin man and you didn't even attempt to refute his points. Mars got owned in the argument and is taking his toys and going home.

[Mars_ax]

Seriously, your putting Bilbo on ignore for calling you a retard? You got to have thicker skin man and you didn't even attempt to refute his points. Mars got owned in the argument and is taking his toys and going home.

I'll have a discussion with anybody about anything as long they don't start debating like a condescending douche. When they do that ends it, I'm not gonna debate some blithering, insulting jack-off.

FYI, I was born in post war Japan 1948 and spent the first 18 years of my life on military bases, I joined the military in 1967 during the VietNam war and got out in 1971. I'm not going to bore you with the rest of my life's story, but I can promise you this soldier boy, having thin skin ain't one of my fucking problems. So take your toys, and stick 'um up yer ass.

[Gandalf]

If I put everyone who had insulted me on ignore I would likely be left alone with me and Andre as the only posters.

As for God and all that bollocks, it bewilders me how belief systems have been built around something that doesn't even exist. I can believe in Jesus as a human being, but all this God bollocks? To hell with God and I don't regard that as a controversial thing to say as God is nothing more than a concept at best. It would be like saying to hell with The Loch Ness Monster. All well and good in theory, but to bring it to life? Nothing more than delusion.

Ronald McDonald is more real and significant than God. And so am I and so is the dust on my window pane. God is a phony and a fake and nothing more than the representation of a church on the take. That rhymes. I should rap.

[VictorCharlie]

Seriously, your putting Bilbo on ignore for calling you a retard? You got to have thicker skin man and you didn't even attempt to refute his points. Mars got owned in the argument and is taking his toys and going home.

I'll have a discussion with anybody about anything as long they don't start debating like a condescending douche. When they do that ends it, I'm not gonna debate some blithering, insulting jack-off.

FYI, I was born in post war Japan 1948 and spent the first 18 years of my life on military bases, I joined the military in 1967 during the VietNam war and got out in 1971. I'm not going to bore you with the rest of my life's story, but I can promise you this soldier boy, having thin skin ain't one of my fucking problems. So take your toys, and stick 'um up yer ass.

Congrats on your service even though it is pretty irrelevant to getting bent out of shape on an internet forum. You are considered a well-spoken and informed poster on this board but your belligerence on this thread when challenged on your position versus well thought out arguments suggest either a lack of conviction or frustration with your reasoning. Honestly if you are going to take a minority position that Jesus is a completely fictional character the onus is kind of on you to support the argument not simply attempt to poke holes in the widely believed premise that Jesus was at least an actual man that walked the Earth.

[Gandalf]

It would make much more sense to worship a table leg IMO. You can keep a table leg indefinitely and it most definitely exists as we can all see it. We can even take photos and share pictures of the table leg and worship it together. The table leg is man made just like god, but actually has a place in the real world. We should all worship my table and its mighty fine legs. There are even four of them, so we could even get elaborate like the Greeks and worship multiple table legs.

[Gandalf]

Piglet from Winnie the Pooh is far cooler than god too. He can be the child of my table legs.

[Gandalf]

I will be the holy mother Mary as I bought the bloody table in the first place and our Bible is Nausea by Jean Paul Sartre. Bring it on, you motherfunkers. We won't have prayers. We shall instead have Iggy and the Stooges and The Clash. And we will drink tea. English tea.

This is the real deal. Who wants to stand in a church with a bunch of permed grannies when you can have the real deal. Kick out the gods, spit on the Jesus. Screw up the bankers.

Too bloody right.

[Gandalf]

And Bilbo has caught the ghey.

[Andre]

Seriously, your putting Bilbo on ignore for calling you a retard? You got to have thicker skin man and you didn't even attempt to refute his points. Mars got owned in the argument and is taking his toys and going home.

I'll have a discussion with anybody about anything as long they don't start debating like a condescending douche. When they do that ends it, I'm not gonna debate some blithering, insulting jack-off.

FYI, I was born in post war Japan 1948 and spent the first 18 years of my life on military bases, I joined the military in 1967 during the VietNam war and got out in 1971. I'm not going to bore you with the rest of my life's story, but I can promise you this soldier boy, having thin skin ain't one of my fucking problems. So take your toys, and stick 'um up yer ass.

Jesus?

[Gandalf]

And maybe me too. That's enough for now. I'm hungry.

[Memphis]

I think Jesus is like the dog in the Derren Brown program about luck. The dog exists but has no magical powers, its a lump of concrete (or whatever it was). It didnt take much effort to plant the seed that the dog brings good luck and people were falling over themselves to believe it.The dog already exists so the works half done but people wanted to believe in its mystical power so much that Im sure they could have planted a new statue of a fictitious character who maybe passed through the village at some point in time and did great things.Assuming it wasnt some massive scam that the whole village was in on the people of the village behaved exactly as he would have hoped, they believed the truth that they were presented with, even though it was false, even though some of them probably new it was false.I liked the old guy who got asked about the lucky dog story, of course he new about the lucky dog story, its been around for years and years (despite it being made up a few weeks ago).I dont see that its a massive leap of faith to think that over the course of 50 - 100 years that story of a dog statue who 'made' a few people win a tenner on the lottery or get the all clear on a test from the docs, or do well in an exam could mutate into a statue of a dog that brings great riches, can heal the sick, bring great wisdom?

[Andre]

I think Jesus is like the dog in the Derren Brown program about luck. The dog exists but has no magical powers, its a lump of concrete (or whatever it was). It didnt take much effort to plant the seed that the dog brings good luck and people were falling over themselves to believe it.The dog already exists so the works half done but people wanted to believe in its mystical power so much that Im sure they could have planted a new statue of a fictitious character who maybe passed through the village at some point in time and did great things.Assuming it wasnt some massive scam that the whole village was in on the people of the village behaved exactly as he would have hoped, they believed the truth that they were presented with, even though it was false, even though some of them probably new it was false.I liked the old guy who got asked about the lucky dog story, of course he new about the lucky dog story, its been around for years and years (despite it being made up a few weeks ago).I dont see that its a massive leap of faith to think that over the course of 50 - 100 years that story of a dog statue who 'made' a few people win a tenner on the lottery or get the all clear on a test from the docs, or do well in an exam could mutate into a statue of a dog that brings great riches, can heal the sick, bring great wisdom?

!GoD fo hcruhc eht ,looC !woW