Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?

[Beanz]

[QUOTE=Bilbo;1033686]

Bilbo



Well that was a long winded lot of nonsense.

I didn't comment on the claims of divinity, or even the Gospels at all, because they are not necessary to demonstrate that Jesus lived.

Real actual history is. No man has ever had the impact on human civilisation that Jesus had. Belive he was mad, bad, insane, whatever you want, but to suggest he simply sidn't exist at all is utterly, utterly absurd.

The Bible characters, locations and events aren't just inventions in a novel, they are real. Israel was a real location two thousand years ago, with a religion, synagogues, priests. It was historically real. The church really did spring up out of Judaism. It is real, there are churches all over the world.

The Roman Empire is real, they truly did embrace Christianity in the end as their offiical ruling, none of this has anything to do with what is written in a book, it's just real history.

If Jesus never lived at all, why did people follow him?

How did the gospel writers know that Pontius Pilate was the provincial govener at that time, and get all the incidental details correct? Pontius Pilate is a proven historical figure, although outside the Bible of minor importance, it's strange that they managed to remember back 50 years and get a real figure to order his execution.

Anyway, let me put the same test to you as I did to Mars Ax.

How do you invent a character 50 years prior, place him in a real geographic location where people have lived for generations and make truly remarkable claims for him, and then get people of the day to belive in him and to assume he really was real if he was just made up?

How come the people who lived there at the time didn't wonder why anybody remembered him?

Your analgy with Robin Hood and King Arthur is also completey fatuous. What historical importance did these two men have? How much of an influence?

Saying Jesus didn't exist, in the light of the historical impact he made, is like saying Ghengis Khan or Alexander The Great didn't exist.

It is easy to understand why you say he doesn't exist however. You don't believe in God and the Bible and therefore wish to dismiss it. So you say he didn't exist at all. Or like Nameless believes, will insist he was just a Jewish copying of some Egyptian Horus myth. Easy way to dismiss it with a wave of a hand, an not having to wrestle with the complexity of it all.

It's intellectually weak and feeble, but emotionally it is gratifying as you can insist it is nonsense without having to take it seriously.

The Bible is the most studied, debated, loved, hated, scrutinised, misquoted and examined book in the world. The greatest minds in human history down the ages have wrestled with it, and sought to debunk it, yet it still remains to this day.

To suggest that it can be debunked by something as simple as saying Jesus didn't exist is embarrassing. It is like a Christian attempting to dismiss evolution by saying dinosaurs never existed and trying to end the conversation there.

Answer the fucking question, the only one waving their hands saying nothing to see here is you. It is neither intellectually weak, or feeble to decimate your argument, you are just not used to getting owned. The reason my response is long winded is because you are constantly contradicting yourself much like the gospel writers and it is difficult to keep up.

“The Bible characters, locations and events aren't just inventions in a novel, they are real. Israel was a real location two thousand years ago, with a religion, synagogues, priests. It was historically real. The church really did spring up out of Judaism”

So now it’s not just Jesus but the characters, locations and events too.

“The Roman Empire is real, they truly did embrace Christianity in the end as their official ruling, none of this has anything to do with what is written in a book, it's just real history.”

Yes I know, I already mentioned this when talking about the council of Nicea and Constantine.

“If Jesus never lived at all, why did people follow him?”

This is comprehensively answered in my response.

“How did the gospel writers know that Pontius Pilate was the provincial govener at that time, and get all the incidental details correct? Pontius Pilate is a proven historical figure, although outside the Bible of minor importance, it's strange that they managed to remember back 50 years and get a real figure to order his execution.”

Now you really are grasping at straws, because some facts are correct so must all biblical claims.

“How do you invent a character 50 years prior, place him in a real geographic location where people have lived for generations and make truly remarkable claims for him, and then get people of the day to belive in him and to assume he really was real if he was just made up?

How come the people who lived there at the time didn't wonder why anybody remembered him?”

Read my response. Yes read.


“Your analgy with Robin Hood and King Arthur is also completey fatuous. What historical importance did these two men have? How much of an influence?

Saying Jesus didn't exist, in the light of the historical impact he made, is like saying Ghengis Khan or Alexander The Great didn't exist.”

Again you started this by using the analogy of William the Conqueror. Robin Hood, Uncle Sam and King Arthur and Jesus Christ can be compared if you believe them to be fictional. Ghengis Khan, Alexander the Great and William the Conqueror are historical figures, independently documented and unlike Jesus making no claims to be Divine.

“It is easy to understand why you say he doesn't exist however. You don't believe in God and the Bible and therefore wish to dismiss it. So you say he didn't exist at all. Or like Nameless believes, will insist he was just a Jewish copying of some Egyptian Horus myth. Easy way to dismiss it with a wave of a hand, an not having to wrestle with the complexity of it all.”

The only person not wishing to wrestle with the complexity of it all is you. You assume my response is both flippant and ill informed, whereas in reality nothing could be further from the truth. It is because I have studied and examined the Bible and experienced Christianity, Judaism and various other religions first hand for the first 16 years of my life that I feel more than qualified to offer an educated opinion.

“The Bible is the most studied, debated, loved, hated, scrutinised, misquoted and examined book in the world. The greatest minds in human history down the ages have wrestled with it, and sought to debunk it, yet it still remains to this day.

To suggest that it can be debunked by something as simple as saying Jesus didn't exist is embarrassing. It is like a Christian attempting to dismiss evolution by saying dinosaurs never existed and trying to end the conversation there”

The fact is that the existence of Jesus is just one of a myriad of questionable components that go to make up the Bible. The point of my response was not the debunking of your precious Bible, but the questioning of your readiness to dismiss Mars cogent argument suggesting that Jesus may not have existed. It obviously hit a raw nerve and so you resorted to calling his reasoning moronic and retarded, much like you called my response intellectually weak and feeble.