Is ward being a little bit overrated in all of this?

[J_Undisputed]

Considering where the rest of the fighters are today, Ward is ahead of the game. It doesnt make him a superstar. Is he being overrated, I can't say that. Only because, the way he's fighting, his longevity will make him seem like a great fighter because he's out smarted much of the rest of his class. He's got good movement, ring generalship and effectively slips punches. He minimizes his weakness by crowding other fighters and taking leverage and power off their punches.
When he first started doing his Roy Jones Impersonation, he got dropped a few times. So he made adjustments and fights smarter. On the inside, using things like his head, elbows, forearms and that Stiff arm he used a couple of times against Froch. He fights off the break but can be outboxed from a distance. So he crowds, mauls, and gets off first and gets out of range.

I was a fan of neither before this fight. Sadly, I still came away with more respect for Froch being a gentleman in defeat than I did for Wards stylized dirty boxing.

[Mar]

I think it's funny that people think butte is great for beating no one, yet ward is overrated for beating everyone. Dude has the belts, the fancy lil super six cup and people can still dig and find something negative to say about the guy. Amazing. Instead of this crying about ward being overrated, not great, boring how about use that energy to find a way to beat the guy. He mauls and fouls his way to a win over and over we all know it's coming but fighters still go in there loose just to complain about it. If ward is overrated , then i hate to see the opinion of the rest of the division. They must be horrible. Im not a ward fan hell i acutally think without the hugging at the end of the fight froch would have won, but all the negative about a guy none of these guys can beat is funny

[Rantcatrat]

I think it's funny that people think butte is great for beating no one, yet ward is overrated for beating everyone. Dude has the belts, the fancy lil super six cup and people can still dig and find something negative to say about the guy. Amazing. Instead of this crying about ward being overrated, not great, boring how about use that energy to find a way to beat the guy. He mauls and fouls his way to a win over and over we all know it's coming but fighters still go in there loose just to complain about it. If ward is overrated , then i hate to see the opinion of the rest of the division. They must be horrible. Im not a ward fan hell i acutally think without the hugging at the end of the fight froch would have won, but all the negative about a guy none of these guys can beat is funny

No one is annointing Bute as the next master boxer. No one has Bute in their top 5 p4p. Bute isn't ranked by most people including yourself. How then could he be overrated?

For beating Froch and Kessler, Ward has emerged as the next great star of boxing in many commentators minds. My point is: maybe that is true, but it depends on how good Froch and Kessler really are. First off, they're clearly quality level boxers, but are wins over them enough to catapult Ward to top 5 p4p status?

I've always thought Kessler was overrated (he's clearly good though don't get me wrong) and became famous because of the first three rounds of the Calzaghe fight. Froch has a great win over Pascal, but the Dirrell fight was horrible and Taylor had already been dethroned when Froch faced him. If Froch beats Bute, then you have a solid point. No debate. If Bute steamrolls through Froch, then we don't really know how good Ward is yet, right? Until Froch goes on to get other big wins over good foes etc. Froch lost to Kessler before fighting Ward even though I thought it was a tight match.

This will be decided in the next few years. To be fair, wins over Froch and Kessler should get you something. While neither was a p4p fighter when Ward beat them, they are both quality boxers. Usually, you have to beat a p4p fighter to get into the top 5 p4p or move around in weight. Ward hasn't moved around in weight either. Ward should probably be in the top ten for those wins. No doubt. So, maybe it's really just a few spots here or there I'm talking about...

[shza]

Usually, you have to beat a p4p fighter to get into the top 5 p4p or move around in weight.

I think "usually" is putting it way too strongly. Ideally, yes; but in reality, I'm not sure that's how it typically goes.

I think Floyd, Manny, and Donaire are the only people on most people's top 10 lists that have beaten another top 10 p4p fighter. Hopkins too, if you have him there.

And the only other guys who have moved up in weight (but have never beaten a top p4p fighter) are JMM and Martinez. But I don't think that going up in weight is a major reason anyone rates those guys -- it has to do more with how they look when they fight.

Wlad, Vitali, Ponjangkam, Bradley and Ward fit neither of these criteria (I'm not counting Bradley's couple of whatever fights at 147 as meaningful) and they are the other folks that appear on most people's top 10 lists. Same thing for honorable mentions like Gamboa and Rios.

For me, "how good were Kessler and Froch, really?" is only half of the competition question. The full question is "how do those guys compare to: (a) Montiel and Darchinyan at the time Donaire beat them (I think probably not quite as good); (b) Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk when Martinez beat them (I think a little better).

And then beyond the competition question is the question of how talented he actually *looks* in the ring. E.g., even if Roy Jones had stayed at 160 and fought no one but B-Class fighters his whole career, it would be hard to deny his world-class talent. I think there, both Donaire and Martinez shade Ward.

But the fact that these questions are all so close leads me to conclude that there's nothing *crazy* about rating Ward as high as #5 -- or even 3 or 4.

I mean, who is the best fighter that JMM has actually beaten? A shot Barrera in what was still a close fight?

[Rantcatrat]

Usually, you have to beat a p4p fighter to get into the top 5 p4p or move around in weight.

I think "usually" is putting it way too strongly. Ideally, yes; but in reality, I'm not sure that's how it typically goes.

I think Floyd, Manny, and Donaire are the only people on most people's top 10 lists that have beaten another top 10 p4p fighter. Hopkins too, if you have him there.

And the only other guys who have moved up in weight (but have never beaten a top p4p fighter) are JMM and Martinez. But I don't think that going up in weight is a major reason anyone rates those guys -- it has to do more with how they look when they fight.

Wlad, Vitali, Ponjangkam, Bradley and Ward fit neither of these criteria (I'm not counting Bradley's couple of whatever fights at 147 as meaningful) and they are the other folks that appear on most people's top 10 lists. Same thing for honorable mentions like Gamboa and Rios.

For me, "how good were Kessler and Froch, really?" is only half of the competition question. The full question is "how do those guys compare to: (a) Montiel and Darchinyan at the time Donaire beat them (I think probably not quite as good); (b) Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk when Martinez beat them (I think a little better).

And then beyond the competition question is the question of how talented he actually *looks* in the ring. E.g., even if Roy Jones had stayed at 160 and fought no one but B-Class fighters his whole career, it would be hard to deny his world-class talent. I think there, both Donaire and Martinez shade Ward.

But the fact that these questions are all so close leads me to conclude that there's nothing *crazy* about rating Ward as high as #5 -- or even 3 or 4.

I mean, who is the best fighter that JMM has actually beaten? A shot Barrera in what was still a close fight?

Martinez beat Paul Williams when Paul Williams was ranked p4p. Pavlik was the lineal middleweight champion of the world when he fought Martinez and Martinez was going up in weight from 154 to 160. Martinez was the underdog too. Dzinziruk was the top dog at 154 when he fought Martinez. But, I'm a Martinez fan so I'm partial. Froch wasn't in the p4p rankings when he fought Ward, neither was Kessler. In fact, Froch wasn't even the second-highest ranked super middleweight when Ward fought him, Bute was.

I see your point though and it's all subjective.