Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable

[LobowolfXXX]

Calzaghe was the man for a decade and who else was he supposed to beat? People pick on Calzaghe, but bar Sven Ottke he beat everyone on the radar.

Who's Ward supposed to beat? Obviously, we can't assess his longevity for a while, but just in the last 2 1/2 years, he's beaten Miranda, Kessler, Green, Abraham, Bika, and Froch.

I think Kessler deserves a rematch. Bute would be a logical fight. Also Hopkins and maybe down the line a fight with Chad Dawson.

Did Kessler deserve a rematch against Calzaghe? Did Hopkins?

[Gandalf]

Calzaghe was the man for a decade and who else was he supposed to beat? People pick on Calzaghe, but bar Sven Ottke he beat everyone on the radar.

Who's Ward supposed to beat? Obviously, we can't assess his longevity for a while, but just in the last 2 1/2 years, he's beaten Miranda, Kessler, Green, Abraham, Bika, and Froch.

I think Kessler deserves a rematch. Bute would be a logical fight. Also Hopkins and maybe down the line a fight with Chad Dawson.

Did Kessler deserve a rematch against Calzaghe? Did Hopkins?

No, because neither of those fighters had the skillset to deal with Calzaghe. Calzaghe/Kessler was a clean fight. Hopkins/Calzaghe wasn't clean, but it was decisive.

Kessler/Ward was extremely tarnished and foul play was stamped all over it. Kessler didn't deserve to be held and rammed all evening.

[LobowolfXXX]

Hopkins didn't have the skillset to deal with Calzaghe? You wouldn't have known it from the judges' cards or the knockdown. You're kind of moving the goalposts a bit when you talk about Ward/Kessler and Calzaghe/Hopkins. You say that Calzaghe/Hopkins "wasn't clean, but it was decisive." Well, Ward/Kessler, even if it wasn't clean, was decisive.

At a comparable age, there's no contest in their resumes; Ward has it all over Calzaghe. He's beaten the Ring Magazine #2, 3, 5, and 9. Calzaghe's level of competition at the same age pales in comparison. Calzaghe's resume was made in the later years. We'll have to see what Ward does in the next 10 years. That doesn't mean that a 27 year old Ward would beat a 27 year old Calzaghe; but he's certainly demonstrated his clear superiority over more of the top 168-pounders than Calzaghe did at this stage.

[littlebif]

Hopkins did have they skills to match calzaghe but he doesnt have the workrate and thats what won it for calzaghe.

[erics44]

Hopkins didn't have the skillset to deal with Calzaghe? You wouldn't have known it from the judges' cards or the knockdown. You're kind of moving the goalposts a bit when you talk about Ward/Kessler and Calzaghe/Hopkins. You say that Calzaghe/Hopkins "wasn't clean, but it was decisive." Well, Ward/Kessler, even if it wasn't clean, was decisive.

At a comparable age, there's no contest in their resumes; Ward has it all over Calzaghe. He's beaten the Ring Magazine #2, 3, 5, and 9. Calzaghe's level of competition at the same age pales in comparison. Calzaghe's resume was made in the later years. We'll have to see what Ward does in the next 10 years. That doesn't mean that a 27 year old Ward would beat a 27 year old Calzaghe; but he's certainly demonstrated his clear superiority over more of the top 168-pounders than Calzaghe did at this stage.

calzaghe didnt have the benefit of the ring mag ratings or the supersix

but yes ward has a better record at the same point in their careers

still, calzaghe would win the fight

ward just isnt that good and doesnt have the stamina

[Gandalf]

Hopkins didn't have the skillset to deal with Calzaghe? You wouldn't have known it from the judges' cards or the knockdown. You're kind of moving the goalposts a bit when you talk about Ward/Kessler and Calzaghe/Hopkins. You say that Calzaghe/Hopkins "wasn't clean, but it was decisive." Well, Ward/Kessler, even if it wasn't clean, was decisive.

At a comparable age, there's no contest in their resumes; Ward has it all over Calzaghe. He's beaten the Ring Magazine #2, 3, 5, and 9. Calzaghe's level of competition at the same age pales in comparison. Calzaghe's resume was made in the later years. We'll have to see what Ward does in the next 10 years. That doesn't mean that a 27 year old Ward would beat a 27 year old Calzaghe; but he's certainly demonstrated his clear superiority over more of the top 168-pounders than Calzaghe did at this stage.

Not really. I just mean that Hopkins fought dirty, but still got his just desserts. With Kessler/Ward the cheater won thus making it relatively inconclusive.

Joe Calzaghe fought decent opposition during his career. It's just that amongst the defences there was some crap too, but the same can be said of Hopkins and Jones as well. What makes Allan Green a decent opponent? What makes someone like Miranda a good opponent? These are nothing that Calzaghe himself didn't fight relatively early as champion. Seriously, people are putting Ward on a pedestal and it's really just a lot of hype. Allan Green hasn't beaten anyone. Miranda loses all of his big fights.

Calzaghe fought and beat everyone there was to beat, nothing more could have been accomplished. Ward has done well for himself too, but I don't think he is as good as the hype is suggesting and in fact I think Froch has shown the flaws, but to take advantage you do need to be very good and Calzaghe wasn't only very good, he was exceptional. Calzaghe would have wiped the floor with Ward and I intrinsically believe that. Calzaghe is all wrong for Ward and to beat him you are going to have to outwork him and tire him and that was Calzaghe's modus operandi.

Calzaghe would have owned the Super 6 had he been allowed to travel through time and take his peak self to the start of it. The Super 6 is full of decent fighters, but they are not exceptional. Very few fighters are exceptional. I see discipline and craft in Ward, but nothing exceptional. He is a grafter and good at it, but Calzaghe is a different level stylistically. With Ward the blueprint is kind of there, but nobody has a clue how to beat Joe Calzaghe.

[Gandalf]

Hopkins did have they skills to match calzaghe but he doesnt have the workrate and thats what won it for calzaghe.

The stamina and workrate is part of the skillset. Either you can throw that much or you can't. Calzaghe's output was an ability and you have to include it as one of his tools. Hopkins has never had it in him to throw a hundred punches in a round. It is one of the things that makes Calzaghe great.

[Manos de Piedra]

Ward's resume is already better than Calzaghe's and he's still got big fights and his prime left. Can't say if he's great yet need to see him for a few more years.

Every fighter in the history of the sport is beatable, it's just about styles.

[Gandalf]

Ward's resume is already better than Calzaghe's and he's still got big fights and his prime left. Can't say if he's great yet need to see him for a few more years.

Every fighter in the history of the sport is beatable, it's just about styles.

How is his resume better than Calzaghe's?

He has beaten two Calzaghe leftovers and has a bunch of middling fighters like Abraham, Miranda and Green. He could potentially have a better resume than that of Calzaghe, but at the same time where are the names he could fight? He has to fight Bute and then maybe move up and fight the likes of Dawson, Hopkins and Cloud, but as things stand I don't think his resume is better than Calzaghe's and people have selective amnesia when it comes to who Calzaghe fought in his early years as champ. People like Reid, Sheika, Eubank and Mitchell are every bit as significant as Abraham et al. Are we really going to suggest that Allan Green would have beaten even a shop worn Eubank? It is nonsense.

Wards resume is decent enough, but I don't see how it is superior to that of Calzaghe.

[Dark Lord Al]

I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?

Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.

[Gandalf]

I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?

Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.

Who though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.

[Dark Lord Al]

I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?

Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.

Who though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.

You dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?

[Gandalf]

I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?

Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.

Who though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.

You dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?

Calzaghe - Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Veit, Sheika

Ward - Green, Abraham, Froch, Kessler, Miranda

There isn't all that much in it. Eubank was faded, so was Kessler. People are going to remember Green and Miranda just as much as they do Sheika and Woodhall. Abraham and Veit are your token popular in Germany fighters. Reid was a good fighter though never going to go down as a great, a bit like Froch who only beat a well faded Reid.

The only difference was Calzaghe was busier and had more filler.

[Dark Lord Al]

I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?

Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.

Who though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.

You dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?

Calzaghe - Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Veit, Sheika

Ward - Green, Abraham, Froch, Kessler, Miranda

There isn't all that much in it. Eubank was faded, so was Kessler. People are going to remember Green and Miranda just as much as they do Sheika and Woodhall. Abraham and Veit are your token popular in Germany fighters. Reid was a good fighter though never going to go down as a great, a bit like Froch who only beat a well faded Reid.

The only difference was Calzaghe was busier and had more filler.

You mean had alot of defences against club fighters ?

Sheika had lost to ( 28 -44 -7 ) Tony Booth for fucks sake.

[Fenster]

I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?

Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.

Who though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.

You dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?

Calzaghe - Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Veit, Sheika

Ward - Green, Abraham, Froch, Kessler, Miranda

There isn't all that much in it. Eubank was faded, so was Kessler. People are going to remember Green and Miranda just as much as they do Sheika and Woodhall. Abraham and Veit are your token popular in Germany fighters. Reid was a good fighter though never going to go down as a great, a bit like Froch who only beat a well faded Reid.

The only difference was Calzaghe was busier and had more filler.

You mean had alot of defences against club fighters ?

Sheika had lost to Tony Booth for fucks sake.

Yet beaten Glen Johnson.