Larry Holmes---greatest of all-tıme?

[bigstinkybug]

*i just wanted to point out that there have been a few very VERY tough heavyweights in the last 10 years...
I knew Cris Byrd would be really questioned...1st of all..He fought all comers in the heavyweight div... off the top of my head..both klitsko's, ike Ibeabuchi, purity,oquendo,Tua,..Mckline.holyfeild.LOL..that's a crazy list...
Cris Byrd is a heavyweight version of Micheal Spinx... i see Holmes no where near as dangerous as half the fighters he fought... Byrd would attack Holmes without fear and pitter patting himself to a UD everytime.

[IamInuit]

I just wanted to point out that there is no denying that Holmes was a great heavyweight. I'm not suggesting he's the GOAT.

[bigstinkybug]

I just think Holmes is ranked too high... We can speculate that Holmes coulbve beat anyone on my list... But in reality, who did he ever beat? A very old Norton... Lost terribly to Tyson..and lost to Spinx... How can anyone really make an argument that Holmes could beat anyone on my list when he couldnt beat Spinx?...twice.

[Master]

I just think Holmes is ranked too high... We can speculate that Holmes coulbve beat anyone on my list... But in reality, who did he ever beat? A very old Norton... Lost terribly to Tyson..and lost to Spinx... How can anyone really make an argument that Holmes could beat anyone on my list when he couldnt beat Spinx?...twice.

Chris Byrd? You crazy! Holmes was old when he fought Tyson and even the Spinks fight. You are being selective with your argument.

[bigstinkybug]

Wait.wait... Holmes would go on to have a nice win over Mercer... Was undefeated when he fought Spinx and fought for another 15years after the spinx loses... Maybe he wasnt what he was... But he wasnt old.
also...why not Cris Bird? Bird was a much bettrr fihter tha Spinx at heavyweight... Bird was spinx,at heavyweight....

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

No doubt robbed agaınst Spınks by a vengeful Don Kıng----thıs guy never lost, and IMO beat Marciano's record of 49 straıght wıns by beatıng Spınks both tımes on many people's cards. Bad luck to have to follow the "greatest of all tıme"---not only that but havıng to beat up the "greatest of all tıme" as well. Yeah not a very popular guy after that, not to mentıon not very charısmatıc eıther. SECOND ONLY TO THE BROWN BOMBER AS HE DEFENDED HIS TITLE 20 CONSECUTIVE TIMES SUCCESSFULLY. What thanks dıd he get? >He beat the monster Gerry Cooney (Foreman saıd Cooney hıt harder than Frazıer), Shavers twıce ın dramatıc fashıon, Wıtherspoon, Weaver, Wıllıams, Norton and everyone else they put ın front of hım. I rank hım hıgher than Dempsey, Frazıer, Tunney, Holyfıeld, Bowe and Lennox Lewıs. Tıed wıth Alı IMO.

He lost to a 15-0 tim witherspoon and carl williams. Check out his face after wiliams was through with him too....and losing to a LHW is inexcusable!

No he didn't lose to Witherspoon, Williams, they were close fights but Holmes edged them. I had Holmes winning both fights by 1 point, the commentators were very biased towards Witherspoon especially Dundee horrible commentary.

Sure **** he did! He had Holmes on the verge of knockout in the 9th and outshone him in the majority of the rounds. Isn't it proof enough that one judge scored it for Witherspoon, the underdog?

Can remember Larry being interviewed after the fight, and it was pointed out, that most people thought he'd lost.. He wasn't at all dismissive, & just responded by saying, it was up to the judges.. I got the distinct impression, that Holmes felt he'd been very lucky.. Meanwhile Witherspoon was ranting furiously, and claiming victory in the face of a robbery..

He definitely deserved a rematch as did Carl Williams, in my opinion.

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

Chris Byrd? You crazy! Holmes was old when he fought Tyson and even the Spinks fight. You are being selective with your argument

He was younger than vitali is now when he fought tyson and only 2 years older than wlad when he lost to spinx! Can u imagine hopkins or dawson (who barely beat diaconu, got his ass whooped by pascal and probably went 1-1 with old man johnson!) putting on 25lbs and outboxing wladimir or vitali? lol. Having said that it was tyson we are talking about though. I was impressed with his performance over mercer but other than that he was basically operating as just a very good journeyman, sorry.

Vitali came back and totally demolished the 250lb WBC champ sam peter after a 3 yr hiatus and career ending back surgery to become 3x HW champ. He has gone onto dominate numerous world class fighters (like gomez, adamek, solis, his contemporary shannon briggs, undefeated kevin johnson, chisora, arreola etc) and defend his belt 8 times and counting.

Take Gomez for e.g: He was the WBC mandatory challenger for klitschko in 09, the 6-foot-4 southpaw and former Cuban amateur star is probably underrated. Gomez was a world amateur champ and former cruiserweight titleholder who logged 10 title defenses. Gomez’s eight subsequent heavyweight bouts after moving up in weight suggested that he could effectively carry 220 to 230 pounds. Gomez holds a pro record of 51-3 (although at the time he was 44-1) in fact the great james toney declined a title shot against gomez when he was mandatory!

Gomez's most noteable victories include:

-Volodymyr Virchis (had a record of 24-1): Was ranked #8 at the time, well-schooled, 6-feet-5 an orthodox boxer whose only loss going into the WBC title-elimination bout was a majority decision to current (at the time) WBA title holder Ruslan Chagaev. Gomez was at his relaxed and confident best against Virchis, out-jabbing the Ukrainian and consistently beating him to the punch with counters shots and quick combinations in close.


-Oliver mccall ( had a record of 51-9): Outboxed on 2 occasions by gomez. ( (one win was overturned though due to gomez testing positive for a recreational drug lol) mcall (prior to fighting gomez) had only suffered one defeat since losing to lennox in 07 via a bizarre tko (a close but fair 10 round decision loss to davarryl wiliamson) recent wins for mcall include cuban star yanqui diaz, fres oquendo and Sinan Samil Sam. Mcall was an ageing but still dangerous fighter at the time, he was comprehensively beaten by gomez.

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

Don't dismiss byrd like that, for one thing byrd was a southpaw and holmes never fought any (none half decent anyway) For two he was a 2x HW world champ. Holmes struggled with men that byrd would run rings around...byrd would certainly have beaten spinks, williams and witherspoon.

'Rapid fire' could slip and counter-punch with GREAT effectiveness ( Put byrd in any era and he would be effective) The man was a defensive whizz!! One of only a very few SOUTHPAW heavyweight champions...byrd was known as the HW 'no one wanted to face'! Slick as they come...

A smallish heavyweight by modern standards but boy o boy...what a boxer!!

I am a huge byrd fan (the guy only lost to the very best in his prime). He was ranked in the ring mag top five for 5 years (2 of those at #1). A fighter admired by his contemporaries and the boxing purists. He did not run his mouth...lived clean and was a gentleman in & out of the ring.

Byrd also had an iron chin. He could take a good shot and still be standing. His resume is underrated as well, as he fought the following:

Ike Ibeabuchi: Who knocked an over confident Byrd out in five rounds. Ike had the potential to be an ATG though..

Jose Ribalta: Who had fought Mike Tyson, Tim Witherspoon, Bruce Seldon, Donovan Ruddock, Leon Spinks, Tony Tubbs, and Frank Bruno; Byrd stopped him in the fourth round

Vitali Klitschko: Who Byrd won via TKO when Vitali had injured himself and couldn't go on. Make what u will of that fight. Was it due to straining to reach byrd?

Wladimir Klitschko: Who beat Byrd twice, first fight, twelve round decision, second fight 7th round TKO stoppage

David Tua: (Who was a stone lighter than in his lewis fight) Byrd made tua miss for 12 rounds in an absolute masterclass (tua had previously stopped michael moorer, ruiz, rahman, maskaev etc)

Evander Holyfield: (2 years after the lewis fights, holy had just stopped hasim rahman in an WBA eliminator to fight lewis for a third time!) Byrd easily outpointed him over 12 rounds.

Andrew Golota: Whom Byrd fought to a draw (one of my all time favorite heavyweight fights) He actually hurt golota in this fight too (u gotta watch this fight folks)!

Jameel McCline: Whom Byrd took to a split decision (mcline was 28-3-3 at the time) People forget that mcline was actually a big threat back then! He had dominated (and floored) shannon briggs, beat up big lance whitaker (who had previously stopped maskaev) blew michael grant away in 1 round and had sam peter on the deck 3 times.

Jimmy Thunder: Thunder was a former gold medallist and IBO champion (byrd stopped him in the 9th round) thunder holds wins over trevor berbick, tony tubbs and tim witherspoon and he also lost a very close SD to john ruiz.

Ross Purrity: A very tough journeyman who had KO'd a young Wladimir Klitschko, Joe Hipp, and fought to a draw with Tommy Morrison; Byrd beat him via ten round decision

Davarryl williamson: Who had just defeated oliver mcall. Byrd won a comfortable UD.

Also throw in mames like hard hitting bert cooper who put both holyfield and michael moorer on the seat of there pants (and had them out on there feet in fact!). Phil jackson (who had only lost to lennox and donovan ruddock at the time) Byrd schooled him! etc etc.

Byrd was the holder of the WBO and IBF World Heavyweight Title belts he made 5 defenses of the latter title.

41 wins-5 losses (most of those coming towards the latter part of his career) I feel he was one of the best American heavyweight of the 2000's, by far.

[bigstinkybug]

C'mon... Forman said alot of things he didnt believe

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I never really liked Byrd as a heavyweight until I realised he was never really a heavyweight.

A very very brave man.

[bigstinkybug]

Cris bord beat some guys that i dont know if Holmes could beat... I know for sure he faced alot better opposition.

[greynotsoold]

A couple thoughts on this subject, three, actually...
1) Holmes was not the best HW of all time. That would be Joe Louis, and he'd beat Holmes most every time, though it would hardly ever be easy. I'm pretty sure that Marciano would beat him, too, because marciano played angles pretty well to open up his right hand and Larry got hit with right hands. All in all, he was pretty damn good.
2) Holmes got beat against Tyson because he got up on his toes and started dancing around and that is exactly the wrong way to fight Tyson, especially at that point in time. It let him get rolling, get his fast feet and very fast hands working without anything of value to worry about. Tyson was able to set down on a right hand and let Larry run into it because that on the toes jab flicking bullshit is just that, which leads to point 3.
3) The one "top" HW I'm certain that Holmes would beat every time, and really easily, is a prime Ali. He had a much better jab and he would stuff it down Ali's throat, and Ali had no other game to go to at that point in time. Holmes would out-jab him, start landing the right because Ali had no defense but reflexes and chin. Easy UD for Holmes.

[Mr140]

To be fair Byrd was underratted but some of his big wins were against a guy who lost every round to then he throw his shoulder out. Then the other was Holyfeild who was 41 years of age had hep b and hart complications as well as being pretty shop worn. I don't really know how to rate that era it was kinda of a time were division didn't quite have a champ yet they were pretty spread out. I can see your point though I think people favor the past over the present regardless its just a part of boxing really.

[ICB]

No doubt robbed agaınst Spınks by a vengeful Don Kıng----thıs guy never lost, and IMO beat Marciano's record of 49 straıght wıns by beatıng Spınks both tımes on many people's cards. Bad luck to have to follow the "greatest of all tıme"---not only that but havıng to beat up the "greatest of all tıme" as well. Yeah not a very popular guy after that, not to mentıon not very charısmatıc eıther. SECOND ONLY TO THE BROWN BOMBER AS HE DEFENDED HIS TITLE 20 CONSECUTIVE TIMES SUCCESSFULLY. What thanks dıd he get? >He beat the monster Gerry Cooney (Foreman saıd Cooney hıt harder than Frazıer), Shavers twıce ın dramatıc fashıon, Wıtherspoon, Weaver, Wıllıams, Norton and everyone else they put ın front of hım. I rank hım hıgher than Dempsey, Frazıer, Tunney, Holyfıeld, Bowe and Lennox Lewıs. Tıed wıth Alı IMO.

He lost to a 15-0 tim witherspoon and carl williams. Check out his face after wiliams was through with him too....and losing to a LHW is inexcusable!

No he didn't lose to Witherspoon, Williams, they were close fights but Holmes edged them. I had Holmes winning both fights by 1 point, the commentators were very biased towards Witherspoon especially Dundee horrible commentary.

Sure **** he did! He had Holmes on the verge of knockout in the 9th and outshone him in the majority of the rounds. Isn't it proof enough that one judge scored it for Witherspoon, the underdog?

Can remember Larry being interviewed after the fight, and it was pointed out, that most people thought he'd lost.. He wasn't at all dismissive, & just responded by saying, it was up to the judges.. I got the distinct impression, that Holmes felt he'd been very lucky.. Meanwhile Witherspoon was ranting furiously, and claiming victory in the face of a robbery..

He definitely deserved a rematch as did Carl Williams, in my opinion.

I never see the interview but i saw it as a very close fight, with the commentator's being very biased towards Tim Witherspoon. I remember Tim Witherspoon being very good defensively with his Ken Norton like defence parrying Larry Holmes's jab.

But often he didn't punch enough and Larry Holmes edged rounds being more busy, yes he had Larry Holmes hurt in the 9th round. But you also forget to mention Larry Holmes had Tim Witherspoon stunned badly and finished the round very strong. In no way was it a robbery though either man could of won it, was a very close fight.

As for Carl Williams i remember Carl Williams being ahead after 11 rounds, but then i remember he faded and lost the last 3 or 4 rounds in a row. Which probably gave Larry Holmes the edge, but again a very close fight could of gone either way no robbery.

[ICB]

I remember someone on this forum telling me once, Chris Byrd was the Jimmy Young of his era i think thats a very good comparison.