Pac-Naz - we now have definitve proof. Fact.

[Fenster]

CutMeMick and AdamGB have both refuted your silly theory that the inferior Naz was somehow ducked by the much greater JMM. I've yet to see your answers to them. Why is that, Fen?

Where have they? Copy and paste their arguments that prove Marquez DID NOT refuse a fight with Naz?

Then show me what my "silly theory" is?

[TitoFan]

There's numerous interviews and articles by credible people stating unequivocally that Hamed ducked Marquez for months, when Marquez was the mandatory challenger. And we have your shaky, unsubstantiated "evidence" that Marquez somehow ducked Hamed.... a theory ridiculed by most here on the forum. All because it suits your dubious agenda of pushing the "greatness" of Hamed, a talented fighter who inexplicably decided to retire after getting humiliated by the only elite fighter he ever faced.

The burden of proof is on you, mod.

[TitoFan]

But I enjoy these periodic arguments over the same tired old theory.
It puts a bit of a smile on my face.

[Fenster]

There's numerous interviews and articles by credible people stating unequivocally that Hamed ducked Marquez for months, when Marquez was the mandatory challenger. And we have your shaky, unsubstantiated "evidence" that Marquez somehow ducked Hamed.... a theory ridiculed by most here on the forum. All because it suits your dubious agenda of pushing the "greatness" of Hamed, a talented fighter who inexplicably decided to retire after getting humiliated by the only elite fighter he ever faced.

The burden of proof is on you, mod.

"Shaky and unsubstantiated evidence?"

I'm the one that can unequivocally prove Marquez turned down the fight. You want proof?

Exhibit 1 - Marquez admits he turned down Hamed - LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...

Exhibit 2 - Nacho Beristain (trainer/manager) admits he turned down Hamed - LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...

Exhibit 3 - Antonio Curtis, Marquez former matchmaker, admits they turned down Hamed. "What happened is this, they called us when we had already signed for another fight and then they wanted us to fight Hamed, Curtis recalled, of those events. Now, I wanted to pull that fight, to fight Hamed. But Nacho said no. He would've gotten a half-million for the fight and Nacho turned that fight down." Max Boxing - Steve Kim

Exhibit 4 - HBO confirm Marquez turned down Hamed -

1. Explain how my evidence is unsubstantiated? 2. Explain what my "silly theory" is? 3. Explain how you're scared of someone you offer a fight?

All you have is - Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Have I ever disputed that obvious fact? No. There are dozens and dozens of mandatory challengers that never get the champion.

[TitoFan]

No.... all I have ISN'T that Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Do you selectively pick and choose what you want to read and blatantly ignore everything else?

Did you not READ and HEAR what credible sources, including Emanuel Steward, had to say about Hamed ducking Marquez for TWO YEARS?

Did you read the reasons why Marquez turned down Hamed after Hamed finally offered him a fight?

Do those circumstances constitute "ducking" to you?

Honestly... you sit out there, all alone in "Hamed Island"... trying to convince the rest of the world that it was Marquez ducking Hamed, when it was always the other way around. You periodically dredge up the same old tired subject, a telling fact in itself. If it really had been as you claim... you wouldn't feel the need to keep dredging it up and boring all of us with the same song and dance, now would you.

You pick and choose your "backup data", blatantly ignoring the true facts. Why? Because Hamed's sudden "no mas" from boxing hurt you like nothing had apparently hurt you before. It's ok dude. No one's ridiculing Hamed anymore. (Well.... only when he talks about comebacks between bites of his double cheeseburger).

You're a forceful and sometimes mocking argumentator. When the truth is on your side... there's no stopping you. But in this case? You come across pitifully, trying to convince the world... who by the way has long since moved on from Hamed.... that it was Marquez ducking Naseem.

Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! Is anybody out there-e-e-e-e-e-e?

Sorry, dude.

[Fenster]

No.... all I have ISN'T that Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Do you selectively pick and choose what you want to read and blatantly ignore everything else?

Did you not READ and HEAR what credible sources, including Emanuel Steward, had to say about Hamed ducking Marquez for TWO YEARS?

Did you read the reasons why Marquez turned down Hamed after Hamed finally offered him a fight?

Do those circumstances constitute "ducking" to you?

Honestly... you sit out there, all alone in "Hamed Island"... trying to convince the rest of the world that it was Marquez ducking Hamed, when it was always the other way around. You periodically dredge up the same old tired subject, a telling fact in itself. If it really had been as you claim... you wouldn't feel the need to keep dredging it up and boring all of us with the same song and dance, now would you.

You pick and choose your "backup data", blatantly ignoring the true facts. Why? Because Hamed's sudden "no mas" from boxing hurt you like nothing had apparently hurt you before. It's ok dude. No one's ridiculing Hamed anymore. (Well.... only when he talks about comebacks between bites of his double cheeseburger).

You're a forceful and sometimes mocking argumentator. When the truth is on your side... there's no stopping you. But in this case? You come across pitifully, trying to convince the world... who by the way has long since moved on from Hamed.... that it was Marquez ducking Naseem.

Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! Is anybody out there-e-e-e-e-e-e?

Sorry, dude.

I've crossed out the irrelevant bit.

First off, I didn't bring up "ducking" in this thread. Now...

1. Manny Steward NEVER said Hamed ducked Marquez. He said whilst working with Hamed I recommended not fighting Marquez. Do you know why? Because Steward believed Barrera and especially Morales, two far bigger names at the time, were "easy" fights for Hamed. He is on record saying that. And who was Hamed's trainer when Marquez was offered the fight? That's right, Manny Steward. You have been confused by a 5 second snippet taken out of context.

2. What credible sources? In the video you posted, one of the journalists is Doug Fischer. He said - "Hamed had a lot to lose against Marquez." That's it. He doesn't say ANYTHING about "ducking." The other journalist said "Naz ducked him." That's all you've got. ONE journo saying Naz ducked him. Evidence? Because Marquez was his mandatory. That is the ONLY evidence available. A Mandatory challenger didn't get a shot at the champion. Laughable.

3. Regardless of the reasons Marquez had for turning down Naz it PROVES he was offered a fight. It PROVES he turned down a massive career high payday. It PROVES Naz WASN'T scared of him.

4. I've provided evidence from Marquez, his trainer/manager, his matchmaker, HBO, Jim Lampley, Larry Merchant and boxing journalist Steve Kim. You provided evidence of ONE journalist saying "Hamed ducked him"?

Now who's evidence looks the most "shaky and unsubstantiated?"

[TitoFan]

You can cross out shit... you can delete... you can edit... you can do whatever you want. You have mod powers. But you can't escape the truth. And I'll take your post apart point by point.

1. You yourself said Steward considered Barrera and Morales "easy" fights for Hamed. Translation: Marquez was NOT an easy fight. Translation: Steward encouraged Hamed to duck Marquez. Next.

2. Ok let's split hairs. Although everyone else clearly alluded to Hamed ducking Marquez, only one actually used the right words. Ok you win. Meanwhile, no one ever accused Marquez of ducking Hamed. Only you, hardly an authority. Next.

3. Marquez was offered a fight after trying UNSUCCESSFULLY to land a fight with Hamed for TWO YEARS. Then, using the head games that handlers and promoters are prone to play, they make an offer to Marquez under circumstances they know Marquez will refuse. It's all explained by credible people. I don't need and will not rehash the details. And let's get one thing straight. The fact that Hamed's people (not Hamed) offered Marquez a fight under dubious circumstances and timing, does NOT prove Hamed wasn't scared of Marquez. Hamed had plenty of time to accept fight offers from Marquez. He chose not to. Next.

4. (see 1 through 3 above)

[TysonBomb]

HOW was he "ducking" Marquez when he offered him a career high purse which Marquez then REJECTED??

Naz was not a ducker ... he fought higher ranked opponents than Marquez during his reign at the top ... Marquez was never seen as anyone special then

Naz was always willing and even waiting to fight any of the Mexicans ... Marquez was never anything until the Pac fights and that is really all that he has to his name. Losing to Pac 3 straight times before finally getting a victory while clearly on enhancement drugs.

He would've knocked Marquez out.

[Fenster]

@TitoFan - You can cross words out too, It's nothing to do with being a mod, it's a simple posting option.

1. Steward encouraged Hamed to "duck" Marquez but also encouraged him to fight him. He was his trainer when the fight was offered, so obviously wasn't as scared of Marquez as that 5 second clip led you to believe.

2. You've pulled a 60 second clip from a documentary focused on highlighting and praising Marquez career. They are hardly going to go into details about Marquez later refusing to fight Naz. Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant both agreed in the video I provided that - "Marquez turning down Naz makes it look like he's scared of getting beat up." Are they "authority" enough?

3. What "credible" people said Marquez got a shitty bogus offer? I've given evidence of his own matchmaker criticising him and Nacho Beristain for refusing the fight. HBO were dumbfounded that he refused the fight. Doug Fischer, one of the journos from your video, criticised Marquez for not taking the fight, along with lots of other journos. Marquez fought Daniel Jimenez ONE week after he refused the Naz fight/date. There were no excuses. The only question to answer is - why did Marquez turndown $500,000 for $5000 a week later? Why?

4. Show me the evidence, as I've provided you, of Marquez making offers to fight Naz? Show me what purses Naz turned down? Show me some dates? Venues?