Society

[Beanz]

You can justify means of state ordered assistance, you can call it immoral, you can vilify the rich for taking advantage of a system, you can vilify the poor for taking advantage of a system, you can vilify the system itself. At the end of the day none of it matters, there simply are not enough resources to sustain the standard of living we have learned to expect in modern life.

Yes I go with the point you made, but say I have 10 house's I can only live in one at a time, some
have so MUCH, were others have so little the gap is far to wide.
This is my take you have a Doctor, his earnings say hundred thousand £ a year, his cleaner that
keeps his surgery clean, say they earn £6000 per year.
The Doctor you would say saves lives etc, and is paid accordingly but why do we undervalue the cleaner there job is important.
In one Scandinavian country I can't recall which one, the gap is much less they value both people
have they got it right maybe.

In some cases like the doctors case here, it cost him a fortune in time and money to get where he got to,he also has to be on call and also had to do some really dirty work before becoming a Gp. He also has to pay rent on the building and public liability insurance as well as all the other insurances incl building and accident.

I know what you are saying but MEH a bit. My doctor is a nit and sometimes I feel I would be better sitting down and speaking to the cleaner for five minutes. There is also the fact that there are care workers like my daughter on the national minimum wage of £6 an hour who have to sit with those dieing in pain while some doctors can not even be bothered to write a morphine prescription. She then has to wash and prep the recently deceased as well as the dealing with peoples day to day bodily functions etc while a doctor sits in his office. UK doctors (General Practitioners) usually don't work out of hours any more that is another service.

Doctors may not be the best example but there comes a point where people lose touch with the everyday lives of the people who they are there to serve, those who pay their wages. When I worked in the Criminal Justice system this was very apparent with Barristers, (Junior and QC's) but particularly Judges who with no idea of the impossible conditions that legal case workers, Police, Court and administrative staff had to work under and would Lord it above all and sundry even outside of the courtroom.

[Andre]

You can justify means of state ordered assistance, you can call it immoral, you can vilify the rich for taking advantage of a system, you can vilify the poor for taking advantage of a system, you can vilify the system itself. At the end of the day none of it matters, there simply are not enough resources to sustain the standard of living we have learned to expect in modern life.

Yes I go with the point you made, but say I have 10 house's I can only live in one at a time, some
have so MUCH, were others have so little the gap is far to wide.
This is my take you have a Doctor, his earnings say hundred thousand £ a year, his cleaner that
keeps his surgery clean, say they earn £6000 per year.
The Doctor you would say saves lives etc, and is paid accordingly but why do we undervalue the cleaner there job is important.
In one Scandinavian country I can't recall which one, the gap is much less they value both people
have they got it right maybe.

In some cases like the doctors case here, it cost him a fortune in time and money to get where he got to,he also has to be on call and also had to do some really dirty work before becoming a Gp. He also has to pay rent on the building and public liability insurance as well as all the other insurances incl building and accident.

I know what you are saying but MEH a bit. My doctor is a nit and sometimes I feel I would be better sitting down and speaking to the cleaner for five minutes. There is also the fact that there are care workers like my daughter on the national minimum wage of £6 an hour who have to sit with those dieing in pain while some doctors can not even be bothered to write a morphine prescription. She then has to wash and prep the recently deceased as well as the dealing with peoples day to day bodily functions etc while a doctor sits in his office. UK doctors (General Practitioners) usually don't work out of hours any more that is another service.

Doctors may not be the best example but there comes a point where people lose touch with the everyday lives of the people who they are there to serve, those who pay their wages. When I worked in the Criminal Justice system this was very apparent with Barristers, (Junior and QC's) but particularly Judges who with no idea of the impossible conditions that legal case workers, Police, Court and administrative staff had to work under and would Lord it above all and sundry even outside of the courtroom.

Yep needs to be a graded system,the cleaner and doctor need to be apart and your doctor and your daughter closer. Should close the loop holes in corporate tax and redistribute fairly too.

And Law sucks, if I rob someone of a few grand on the street say at a auto teller just take their money, run, get caught, Im doing a lot of time.

Someone in a suit within a company can have a 'gambling addiction' and do the company out of hundreds of thousands and is smacked on the wrist put into rehab and made to do community service for a few years.

Jail is also a means to a type of slave labor too. There needs to be a balance so that active prisoners who have a work ethic get more and savings put aside can get released with them so they are set up and managed by someone once outside.

[VictorCharlie]

Wages aren't some arbitrary amount. Doctors get paid well b/c they go to school for 8-10 years to obtain a marketable and technical skill and then spend another 2-5 being worked to the bone as a resident. Sure it would be great if more unskilled jobs paid better but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea what a fair market wage is for a cleaner but I know what I'm willing to pay for my dry cleaning. Increasing the wages for unskilled labor results in higher costs of living for all of us. So basically you could raise the cleaners wage but then both you and him's income won't go as far as it used to.

It circles me back to if you are planning on a career in a blue collar job and/or depending on a govt pension you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I view income tax as theft so I applaud anyone that attempts to circumvent giving up a portion of their income simply b/c they breath.

[brocktonblockbust]

money is fuck all. go and get some berries. some roots like sarsaparilla. soon money will be worthless in the sense that it will be as valuable as paper. tinder for fire. then what? nobody knows how to make a fire or plant a tree or fish or get honey. Homo sapiens will become homo extinctus.

[Andre]

money is fuck all. go and get some berries. some roots like sarsaparilla. soon money will be worthless in the sense that it will be as valuable as paper. tinder for fire. then what? nobody knows how to make a fire or plant a tree or fish or get honey. Homo sapiens will become homo extinctus.

If it comes to dog eat dog or man eat baby, I hope all I love and I are back in the electron field already and have gone quick.

[Beanz]

Wages aren't some arbitrary amount. Doctors get paid well b/c they go to school for 8-10 years to obtain a marketable and technical skill and then spend another 2-5 being worked to the bone as a resident. Sure it would be great if more unskilled jobs paid better but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea what a fair market wage is for a cleaner but I know what I'm willing to pay for my dry cleaning. Increasing the wages for unskilled labor results in higher costs of living for all of us. So basically you could raise the cleaners wage but then both you and him's income won't go as far as it used to.

It circles me back to if you are planning on a career in a blue collar job and/or depending on a govt pension you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I view income tax as theft so I applaud anyone that attempts to circumvent giving up a portion of their income simply b/c they breath.

There is nothing unskilled about being a carer and yet they are often only paid the national minimum wage to play an important role in society. There are many underpaid but essential roles carried out by people that enable society to function and the gap between blue and white collar skill sets is constantly changing. There are plenty of skilled labour jobs that require much more dedication, concentration and problem solving skills than those employed by administrative white collar data entry clerks. Most people in this country do not share your view of income tax being theft and would be better served by a less top heavy pyramid where government service pay grades are concerned.

[Dia bando]

Wages aren't some arbitrary amount. Doctors get paid well b/c they go to school for 8-10 years to obtain a marketable and technical skill and then spend another 2-5 being worked to the bone as a resident. Sure it would be great if more unskilled jobs paid better but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea what a fair market wage is for a cleaner but I know what I'm willing to pay for my dry cleaning. Increasing the wages for unskilled labor results in higher costs of living for all of us. So basically you could raise the cleaners wage but then both you and him's income won't go as far as it used to.

It circles me back to if you are planning on a career in a blue collar job and/or depending on a govt pension you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I view income tax as theft so I applaud anyone that attempts to circumvent giving up a portion of their income simply b/c they breath.

There is nothing unskilled about being a carer and yet they are often only paid the national minimum wage to play an important role in society. There are many underpaid but essential roles carried out by people that enable society to function and the gap between blue and white collar skill sets is constantly changing. There are plenty of skilled labour jobs that require much more dedication, concentration and problem solving skills than those employed by administrative white collar data entry clerks. Most people in this country do not share your view of income tax being theft and would be better served by a less top heavy pyramid where government service pay grades are concerned.

My Wife and Daughter are both carers, 12 hour nights and they work hard for minimum wage,I totally agree with you they are very undervalued, it's a hell of a job.
I'm like you on my views, we want shit shoveler s but we want to pay them shit , but I don't they
deserve a living wage.

[Andre]

Wages aren't some arbitrary amount. Doctors get paid well b/c they go to school for 8-10 years to obtain a marketable and technical skill and then spend another 2-5 being worked to the bone as a resident. Sure it would be great if more unskilled jobs paid better but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea what a fair market wage is for a cleaner but I know what I'm willing to pay for my dry cleaning. Increasing the wages for unskilled labor results in higher costs of living for all of us. So basically you could raise the cleaners wage but then both you and him's income won't go as far as it used to.

It circles me back to if you are planning on a career in a blue collar job and/or depending on a govt pension you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I view income tax as theft so I applaud anyone that attempts to circumvent giving up a portion of their income simply b/c they breath.

There is nothing unskilled about being a carer and yet they are often only paid the national minimum wage to play an important role in society. There are many underpaid but essential roles carried out by people that enable society to function and the gap between blue and white collar skill sets is constantly changing. There are plenty of skilled labour jobs that require much more dedication, concentration and problem solving skills than those employed by administrative white collar data entry clerks. Most people in this country do not share your view of income tax being theft and would be better served by a less top heavy pyramid where government service pay grades are concerned.

My Wife and Daughter are both carers, 12 hour nights and they work hard for minimum wage,I totally agree with you they are very undervalued, it's a hell of a job.
I'm like you on my views, we want shit shoveler s but we want to pay them shit , but I don't they
deserve a living wage.

People who do tough jobs like that need a raise to match their input and shit duties, better tax breaks specially on their overtime.

[VictorCharlie]

Wages aren't some arbitrary amount. Doctors get paid well b/c they go to school for 8-10 years to obtain a marketable and technical skill and then spend another 2-5 being worked to the bone as a resident. Sure it would be great if more unskilled jobs paid better but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea what a fair market wage is for a cleaner but I know what I'm willing to pay for my dry cleaning. Increasing the wages for unskilled labor results in higher costs of living for all of us. So basically you could raise the cleaners wage but then both you and him's income won't go as far as it used to.

It circles me back to if you are planning on a career in a blue collar job and/or depending on a govt pension you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I view income tax as theft so I applaud anyone that attempts to circumvent giving up a portion of their income simply b/c they breath.

There is nothing unskilled about being a carer and yet they are often only paid the national minimum wage to play an important role in society. There are many underpaid but essential roles carried out by people that enable society to function and the gap between blue and white collar skill sets is constantly changing. There are plenty of skilled labour jobs that require much more dedication, concentration and problem solving skills than those employed by administrative white collar data entry clerks. Most people in this country do not share your view of income tax being theft and would be better served by a less top heavy pyramid where government service pay grades are concerned.

I don't know what a "carer" is. Skill and hard work are irrelevant if they aren't marketable. I can be a very skilled widget maker and do it tirelessly but if there isn't a market for widgets than I made a poor choice in careers. My poor choice shouldn't be shouldered by anyone other than myself. Minimum wage is means politicians pander to the lower rung of the socio-economic ladder. It is discriminatory against young and unskilled labor and does nothing to raise anyone else's wage. I'm not informed on the UK tax system or your government service pay grades; more importantly I don't think you care what my opinion would be in the first place.

[Beanz]

Wages aren't some arbitrary amount. Doctors get paid well b/c they go to school for 8-10 years to obtain a marketable and technical skill and then spend another 2-5 being worked to the bone as a resident. Sure it would be great if more unskilled jobs paid better but these things don't happen in a vacuum. I have no idea what a fair market wage is for a cleaner but I know what I'm willing to pay for my dry cleaning. Increasing the wages for unskilled labor results in higher costs of living for all of us. So basically you could raise the cleaners wage but then both you and him's income won't go as far as it used to.

It circles me back to if you are planning on a career in a blue collar job and/or depending on a govt pension you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

I view income tax as theft so I applaud anyone that attempts to circumvent giving up a portion of their income simply b/c they breath.

There is nothing unskilled about being a carer and yet they are often only paid the national minimum wage to play an important role in society. There are many underpaid but essential roles carried out by people that enable society to function and the gap between blue and white collar skill sets is constantly changing. There are plenty of skilled labour jobs that require much more dedication, concentration and problem solving skills than those employed by administrative white collar data entry clerks. Most people in this country do not share your view of income tax being theft and would be better served by a less top heavy pyramid where government service pay grades are concerned.

I don't know what a "carer" is. Skill and hard work are irrelevant if they aren't marketable. I can be a very skilled widget maker and do it tirelessly but if there isn't a market for widgets than I made a poor choice in careers. My poor choice shouldn't be shouldered by anyone other than myself. Minimum wage is means politicians pander to the lower rung of the socio-economic ladder. It is discriminatory against young and unskilled labor and does nothing to raise anyone else's wage. I'm not informed on the UK tax system or your government service pay grades; more importantly I don't think you care what my opinion would be in the first place.

Then you think wrong. If I was not interested in your opinion then I would not have quoted your post. A carer is somebody who cares for and nurses disabled or elderly people in their own homes or a retirement home. We are all living longer and will be in need of care at some point in our lives and not everyone has relatives willing or able to give it, so I don't think it is a skill with a diminishing market, quite the opposite. The point I was trying to make is that such a skill should be more valued and better rewarded by society as a whole. The idea of a decent and fare minimum wage being a way of pandering to "the lower rung of the socio-economic ladder" seems a bit cold, and heartless and not a little inaccurate. Surely people at any pay grade deserve enough respect to be given a wage that enables them to eat, clothe and house themselves ? or are you suggesting that employers should be free to pay pennies and treat employees with a derisory sum that is tantamount to slavery ? The minimum wage makes allowances for young people and apprentices so they are not discriminated against. The whole idea is to encourage people off welfare and stop employers treating staff as commodities. That is not communism that is common decency.

[VictorCharlie]

That is strange. There are a variety of levels that nurses and health care providers can be certified at in the US. Your basic nurse doesn't make a whole lot but it is more than minimum wage that being said once they get a higher license the money is pretty damn good and then it gets REAL good if they get a specialty like neo-natal. My buddy run's an in-home care providing services and he pays his people a pretty decent salary. There is no shortage of demand for medical care so something is skewing the market value of their work in the UK. I'm happy to talk these topics in generalities but unlike Miles I'm not going to espouse about a nation's public policy I am not familiar with much less tell you how to "fix" any perceived problems.

A person's wage comes from a negotiation between them and an employer over a fair compensation for a skill or service provided. One is looking to get the best wage for the least amount of work and the other is looking to get the most work for the lowest wage. A government floor on this wage does nothing to improve one's wage but they do increase the cost of living. There are a plethora of jobs that do not need and shouldn't provide a living wage. Just about every job I had through highschool and college were low paying jobs tailored for young unskilled labor. A high minimum wage would have made them unavailable to an unskilled kid looking for part time work.

If I make $10/hr doing a semi-skilled job in a widget factory and the minimum wage was $5 but is then raised to $8 a couple things are going to happen and not happen. For starters anyone making more than $8 is NOT getting a raise because the floor got raised; the young kid that was getting paid $5/hr to sweep out the factory is getting laid off and I'm being handed the broom and told to make sure the place is swept out before I leave; and to make sure shareholders (to include myself since Widget Inc. is part of my 401K) don't get pissed at low quarterly earnings the corporation makes up any losses from higher wages and more benefits through raising prices on goods and/or decreasing other wages/benefits .

If you have a marketable skill then someone will pay you a fair price for your work and employers may be willing to pay for more unskilled jobs (ie floor sweeper) at a lower price. Once the floor is raised it may not be worth it to pay a menial labor job $8 leading to higher unemployment. Minimum wages don't improve the "living" wage for everyone else, push out unskilled labor from the work place and raise the cost of business but they are an easy sell to the labor class. Arguing that w/o a minimum wage people would be paid pennies is a slippery slope argument. Your worth to your employer doesn't change in relation to a minimum wage but the availability of jobs and price of goods do. I'm rambling and these guys say it better.

A Minimum Wage Equals Minimum Jobs - Reason.com