From how many fights should Ali have been DQ'ed for holding?

[Vendettos]

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

[greynotsoold]

Eddie Futch complained loud and long about Ali's tactics on many occasions. There was quite a bit of turmoil over this, and over the referee named to work the fight in Manila. The thing about is, Ali kept saying he was the greatest, and people- even referees and commentators that should have remained neutral- bought into it. It alternately cracks me up/pisses me off when you talk to somebody who knows nothing of boxing, never watches the fights, can't tell a left hook from a straight right, but they are sure that Ali is the greatest of all time. And treat you like you're stupid if you disagree.

[El Kabong]

Eddie Futch complained loud and long about Ali's tactics on many occasions. There was quite a bit of turmoil over this, and over the referee named to work the fight in Manila. The thing about is, Ali kept saying he was the greatest, and people- even referees and commentators that should have remained neutral- bought into it. It alternately cracks me up/pisses me off when you talk to somebody who knows nothing of boxing, never watches the fights, can't tell a left hook from a straight right, but they are sure that Ali is the greatest of all time. And treat you like you're stupid if you disagree.

I remember HBO doing a special on Ali-Frazier and Bryant Gumbel said something to the effect of "When Frazier won, you got the feeling that the bad guy won"......




Who calls Joe Frazier "the bad guy"...everyone put their emotions in with Ali which is why he gets a pass for everything he ever did. From calling The Beatles "fags", to calling other black boxers "Uncle Toms", and calling Joe Frazier a "gorilla". Muhammad Ali was a hateful prick, a great fighter...no doubt he won a lot, but he got away with more hateful bullshit than any other fighter in the history of the game....ooooh but I should feel sorry for him because the punches caught up to him in a big way, yeah I don't think so. He can feel the pain he put Joe Frazier through for the rest of his life

[El Kabong]

At his very best vs Cleveland Williams he was like a big Roy Jones Jr....at his worst he was like John Ruiz.

Joe Louis was the Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, he fought the same way with the same style from when he started to when he retired and he dominated his era. If you were a boxer "You could run but you couldn't hide", if you were a slugger he'd beat you to the punch, & he knew his range better than any fighter I've ever seen.

[X]

I'm with Lyle on this one ..... Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. A fighting machine who was so far ahead of his time in the way he fought. Cleaned out the division three times over, never ducked anyone. A fighter's fighter.

[beenKOed]

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

[Beanflicker]

Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.

Can you even begin to comprehend how many great fighters (past and even present) first laced up boxing gloves because of Muhammad Ali?

How on earth would boxing be better without Ali??

Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Tyson, De La Hoya, Mayweather. These are the guys that inspired kids to beg their parents to sign them up in boxing classes.

[Dark Lord Al]

Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.

Can you even begin to comprehend how many great fighters (past and even present) first laced up boxing gloves because of Muhammad Ali?

How on earth would boxing be better without Ali??

Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Tyson, De La Hoya, Mayweather. These are the guys that inspired kids to beg their parents to sign them up in boxing classes.

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

[Beanflicker]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

[Dark Lord Al]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

[IamInuit]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

Louis is my favourite hev all time but Ali's foot print imo is a much larger one.

Holding has been a part of boxing since the end of grappling in the sport. Illegal yes and yet employed all the time. Boxing has not evolved in that regard as its rare to see a point deduction for it in this era or hear the once used ref phrase of punch and get out. Has Wlad ever lost a point?

The holding behind the head and hitting by Ali pissed me off the most and I remember him being warned multiple times in fights and never losing a point.

[Beanflicker]

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

Liston, Frazier and Big George? Are you SERIOUS? The public couldn't have given a fuck less about those guys. Liston and George were unapproachable, unfriendly lugs, and Frazier never got over with the general public until he beat Ali. Being good and winning alone doesn't make you a superstar, no need to look further than the Klitschko's to reaffirm that.

Ali never took a spot, he created a spot that was never matched before or after. You don't talk about Ali's fame compared to other boxers, you talk about his fame compared to everyone else, because he is arguably the most famous man in the world. So to suggest that Liston, Foreman, or another lug would have taken his place... that's just insanity.

I'm far from an Ali fan. I think he was a dickhead as a person, and I think he gets WAY too much credit for ducking the Viet Nam war. He wasn't courageous, he was afraid to go over there and risk getting killed like any other guy. He didn't give two fucks about the Veit Nam war and "fighting those viet cong" until they changed the draft criteria to make him eligible. Before that, you never heard him open his mouth about it.

So yeah, I think he was a prick and overrated as a person, but I'm not going to act like he wasn't the greatest of all time. He was. His KO victory of a prime Foreman alone is worth 30 of Louis' Bum of the Month club victories or more. He had arguably the greatest skills and he has INARGUABLY fought and conquered the greatest HW opposition.

[Vendettos]

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

I don't believe that. I did say I was just curious.

Some people would say that without Ali boxing would be dead.

I personally don't know. I believe it would still be here, but wed be missing a golden era.

[Master]

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

I don't believe that. I did say I was just curious.

Some people would say that without Ali boxing would be dead.

I personally don't know. I believe it would still be here, but wed be missing a golden era.

If Ali was not around title would change hands Fraiser, Foreman, Young, Norton, Holmes...

[beenKOed]

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

I don't believe that. I did say I was just curious.

Some people would say that without Ali boxing would be dead.

I personally don't know. I believe it would still be here, but wed be missing a golden era.

It's just my opinion, take it or leave it. If you spend more than 10 minutes thinking about it you are wasting your time.
Make up you own mind, believe what makes sense to you just like we all do.
I don't believe Ali was greatest, in or out of the ring.
When Ali beat Foreman he went up a few levels in my mind.