From how many fights should Ali have been DQ'ed for holding?

[Dark Lord Al]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

[IamInuit]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

Louis is my favourite hev all time but Ali's foot print imo is a much larger one.

Holding has been a part of boxing since the end of grappling in the sport. Illegal yes and yet employed all the time. Boxing has not evolved in that regard as its rare to see a point deduction for it in this era or hear the once used ref phrase of punch and get out. Has Wlad ever lost a point?

The holding behind the head and hitting by Ali pissed me off the most and I remember him being warned multiple times in fights and never losing a point.

[El Kabong]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

[El Kabong]

Muhammad Ali wasn't original in how he acted...he was original in style, for a heavyweight simply due to athletic ability but....



That man was who Ali modeled himself after. Ali just did it in an age when there were tvs in every household. Without Jack Johnson there would be no Ali.

[El Kabong]

Floyd Mayweather Jr. is even trying to be the Jack Johnson of this era! STILL over 100 years later, and the P4P #1 fighter is trying to beJack Johnson. Jack fought with an annoying style, he talked loads of trash, he laughed off hatred, he did things specifically to irk people, to push buttons. Ali copied him...he just tried to bring politics into the spotlight to be different....Jack Johnson didn't give 2 shits about politics.

Ali joined the "Nation of Islam" & dodged the draft....whoopty fucking doo. Jack Johnson had sex with white women & sped in his car through the rural south in the 1900's with no NAACP & no group of idiot thugs following Elijah Muhammad to "have his back"

Jack Johnson even has a better movie than Ali documentary (Unforgivable Blackness) & biopic (The Great White Hope).

Without Jack Johnson there's no Ali

[Dark Lord Al]

Muhammad Ali wasn't original in how he acted...he was original in style, for a heavyweight simply due to athletic ability but....



That man was who Ali modeled himself after. Ali just did it in an age when there were tvs in every household. Without Jack Johnson there would be no Ali.

To be honest it should be about the boxing not the other bullshit

[El Kabong]

Very true. Ali was like The Beatles he hit the scene at just the right time... he was talented but all the superfluous crap I could have done without.

[Master]

You lot say you do not like the baggage that Ali brought but you still do not accept that what he did in the ring was better than any other heavyweight ever accomplished.

Without Joe Louis there would have been less opportunity for Ali, not Jack Johnson, get your facts right.

Get over it and judge him on his boxing as we have.

[IamInuit]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

[Master]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

As was Joe Louis, Rocky was cheap, ......

[IamInuit]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

As was Joe Louis, Rocky was cheap, ......

Forever copied. Never duplicated.

[Dark Lord Al]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

Womanizing isnt a crime , refusing to go to war is.

[Master]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

Womanizing isnt a crime , refusing to go to war is.

Many rich people draft dodged too at the time, so did Dempsey. Forget all that. Boxing he was the best.

[Dark Lord Al]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

Womanizing isnt a crime , refusing to go to war is.

Many rich people draft dodged too at the time, so did Dempsey. Forget all that. Boxing he was the best.

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

[Beanflicker]

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

Liston, Frazier and Big George? Are you SERIOUS? The public couldn't have given a fuck less about those guys. Liston and George were unapproachable, unfriendly lugs, and Frazier never got over with the general public until he beat Ali. Being good and winning alone doesn't make you a superstar, no need to look further than the Klitschko's to reaffirm that.

Ali never took a spot, he created a spot that was never matched before or after. You don't talk about Ali's fame compared to other boxers, you talk about his fame compared to everyone else, because he is arguably the most famous man in the world. So to suggest that Liston, Foreman, or another lug would have taken his place... that's just insanity.

I'm far from an Ali fan. I think he was a dickhead as a person, and I think he gets WAY too much credit for ducking the Viet Nam war. He wasn't courageous, he was afraid to go over there and risk getting killed like any other guy. He didn't give two fucks about the Veit Nam war and "fighting those viet cong" until they changed the draft criteria to make him eligible. Before that, you never heard him open his mouth about it.

So yeah, I think he was a prick and overrated as a person, but I'm not going to act like he wasn't the greatest of all time. He was. His KO victory of a prime Foreman alone is worth 30 of Louis' Bum of the Month club victories or more. He had arguably the greatest skills and he has INARGUABLY fought and conquered the greatest HW opposition.