What's funny with Larry Holmes reign as champion...

[ykdadamaja]

My apologies but I have gotten tired of this myth that is Larry Holmes over the years and his default position in top 10 lists.

Larry Holmes whether by chance or premeditation had impeccable timing. He entered a division ripe for the taking. Yes he was skilled as a fighter but the fact is he was careful.
Let’s have an honest look at Mr. Holmes.

1978. He fights a Wbc eliminator with Shavers. Not only was Shavers washed up but he had just lost to Ali in a Wbc/Wba title challenge about 4 months earlier and had no business in an eliminator.

Same year he gets a fight with Norton for the title magically vacated by Ali via slime ball Don King and the Wbc who just happened to be in Dapper Don’s back pocket. Lets not forget that Norton also was extremely battle worn and just a few fights away from retirement. Holmes got the slim points win in a fight many if not most thought he lost.

He then finishes off the year with a defense over Evagelista and another against Ocasio in early 79.

He then meets Weaver who at the time had almost as many losses as he does wins and he takes Holmes to the wall before being stopped in the 12th.
Then for some odd reason Shavers gets another shot. Shavers by this time was essentially shot and he dropped Holmes prior to being stopped in the 11th.

In 1980 he goes on a run beating the likes of Zanon, Leroy Jones and Ledoux.

He caps off the year by beating up an Ali in perhaps one of the worst matchups in boxing history and is on record of saying that he did not care about Ali’s health but only the seven figure paycheck.

He starts 1981 off with a win over Berbick followed by Leon Spinks both of which could not fight their way out of a bathtub.
To end his year in 81 he takes on Snipes and struggles getting dropped in the seventh but to his credit stopped Snipes in the 11th.

The Snipes win must have changed him because should have been able to railroad a one dimensional oaf like Cooney at the start of 1982. It should have looked much like it would in his next fight with Cobb but it didn’t.

He starts 1983 off with Rodriguez and ends up going balls to the wall with young inexperienced Tim Witherspoon eking out another split win in a fight many thought he lost. He ends the year beating Frank and Marvis Frazier.

He drops the Wbc title. He did this because he had no intention of fighting Thomas, Dokes, Tubbs or Page or rematch Terrible Tim.

He has one fight in 1984 against a completely shot Bonecrusher Smith for the Ibf title and how Smith even qualified is beyond me.

In 1985 he first stops Bey and then goes on to struggle against Carl no chin Williams even though it’s scored a Ud. He then gets beat by Spinks in what was classed as the upset of the year and then gets beat by him again at the start of 1986 even though I thought he won the first fight.
Next he is ironed out by Tyson albeit being inactive for close to two years. Post 1988 he really did not do much. Beat an inexperienced Mercer, lost to a faded Holyfield and got out boxed by Oliver McCall. Not only did he skip out by dropping the WBC on prime guys like Page, Dokes etc but he never fought Young, Foreman, Frazier or even Ron Lyle. He should have also rematched Norton.

“Marciano couldn’t carry my jock strap”

Not so sure about that. It’s real easy to look like one is unstoppable when all you have been doing is beating up hasbeens and the inexperienced.

You have go to be out of your mind. In fact, you can change the subject name to Wladimir Klitschko and the other names to the other bums/hasbeens/inexperienced guys he faced and it can stand for the same thing!

LOL....

Holmes cleaned up the old guys who refused to leave that were carry overs from the late 60's and early 70's, and he killed babies in the womb before they got to big for their britches who all went on to become champions.

Page, Dokes and Tubbs didn't fight Holmes, as it appears, because of politics. They were all WBA Champions and it all seemed odd.

Holmes would have SMOKED Dokes, Page and Cotzee. And you know it!

[THE THIRD MAN]

Holmes was a great HW champ, he was unlucky to have fought at a time just after the golden era of the 60's and 70's. I rank him a top 10 Heavyweight champ, (about 9th or 10th) but he does himself no favours by his continual whining and bitterness. He was lucky to beat Norton and how he survived that right hand knockdown of Shavers is anybody's guess. ( i give him due credit for that one alone) At the end of the day he beat everyone they put in front of him and that's all you can do, Spinks was his nemesis, styles make make fights and Spinks was just too awkward for him. In comparison he beats Lewis and Wlad any night of the week. Larry should just stop his bleating and take his career as it was, it was a great one.

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes was a great HW champ, he was unlucky to have fought at a time just after the golden era of the 60's and 70's. I rank him a top 10 Heavyweight champ, (about 9th or 10th) but he does himself no favours by his continual whining and bitterness. He was lucky to beat Norton and how he survived that right hand knockdown of Shavers is anybody's guess. ( i give him due credit for that one alone) At the end of the day he beat everyone they put in front of him and that's all you can do, Spinks was his nemesis, styles make make fights and Spinks was just too awkward for him. In comparison he beats Lewis and Wlad any night of the week. Larry should just stop his bleating and take his career as it was, it was a great one.

And that's pretty fair. I think everyone can pretty much admit that Ali WAS the greatest. By far... and, to be honest, I rank Vitali better than I do Wlad. Seriously!

Holmes can beat Wlad but he wouldn't beat Vitali. Holmes can beat Lewis in a prime for prime fight. He would simply out-score Lewis. And Lewis knows it if he asks himself seriously.

[Mars_ax]

Holmes was a bit of a whiner, but some of it was understandable, he was always in Ali's shadow and never really got the respect he deserved. Part of that however had to do with Larry having the charisma of a carrot and never being a popular champion.
I remember when Holmes fought Cooney in Vegas, it was like Cooney was the Champion, they even introduced him last like they would the champion. I heard the crowd in Vegas was really racist, the great white hope thing.

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes was a bit of a whiner, but some of it was understandable, he was always in Ali's shadow and never really got the respect he deserved. Part of that however had to do with Larry having the charisma of a carrot and never being a popular champion.
I remember when Holmes fought Cooney in Vegas, it was like Cooney was the Champion, they even introduced him last like they would the champion. I heard the crowd in Vegas was really racist, the great white hope thing.

I think the fans turned against Holmes when he actually went out to beat Ali to a crisp, when everyone with half a brain could see Ali wasn't "Ali" and he really should have carried Ali for the duration.

Holmes really was dumb as a box of rocks. But his money management skills was second to none, and he sure did keep most of his winnings and used it wisely- he is one of the few fighters who speaks highly of Don King. Fancy that?

But another snapshot into how dumb Holmes was- he came back to fight Tyson when he did. (his dumb arrogance caused him to nearly get killed).... and secondly, when he felt as if Spinks was smaller, he could beat Spinks.

The Spinks fight was a disaster for Holmes because Spinks moved around the ring and used his speed. Holmes just couldn't catch him... it was a trap for Holmes and he fell for it. Perhaps none of us knew? But looking back at it now, would you REALLY set a Floyd Mayweather to fight an aged Bernard Hopkins at 154 or 160?


That's sorta like how Holmes/Spinks was...

[Mars_ax]

To tell the truth I was really glad Spinks won the first fight, not because of Marciano's record or anything, I just liked Spinks better then I did Holmes.
I must admit though, that Larry really got screwed in the rematch, there's no fucking way that Spinks won that fight.
As for Holmes' fight with Tyson, oddly enough I thought Larry might win, I should have known better because this was back when Mikey had seriously bad intentions, and was like a juggernaut. I can't say I minded seeing 'ole Peanuthead (what Ali used to call him) finally get his ass kicked.

[ykdadamaja]

To tell the truth I was really glad Spinks won the first fight, not because of Marciano's record or anything, I just liked Spinks better then I did Holmes.
I must admit though, that Larry really got screwed in the rematch, there's no fucking way that Spinks won that fight.
As for Holmes' fight with Tyson, oddly enough I thought Larry might win, I should have known better because this was back when Mikey had seriously bad intentions, and was like a juggernaut. I can't say I minded seeing 'ole Peanuthead (what Ali used to call him) finally get his ass kicked.

Ali was right, he did have a peanut head...

[THE THIRD MAN]

Holmes was a bit of a whiner, but some of it was understandable, he was always in Ali's shadow and never really got the respect he deserved. Part of that however had to do with Larry having the charisma of a carrot and never being a popular champion.
I remember when Holmes fought Cooney in Vegas, it was like Cooney was the Champion, they even introduced him last like they would the champion. I heard the crowd in Vegas was really racist, the great white hope thing.

Holmes really needed big George to stick around, the early retirement of Foreman prevented an inevitable match up that most certainly would've occurred sometime in 1978/79? Foreman would've only turned 30 in 1979 and these days that makes you a pup! A win over big George would've solidified Holmes reputation that was tarnished by his win over the hapless Ali. The Ali fight wasn't his fault, the fight shouldn't have happened, but he appears to get the blame. Holmes had one of the best jabs in Heavyweight history and the lumbering Lewis would've have had a face full of it from Holmes in his prime. Holmes had problems with the difficult Norton and the difficult Spinks. His early 1980's defences were against moderate opposition and this clouds people's judgement of him. Larry just needs to sit down relax and know in his own heart he was a great champion.

[ykdadamaja]

Holmes was a bit of a whiner, but some of it was understandable, he was always in Ali's shadow and never really got the respect he deserved. Part of that however had to do with Larry having the charisma of a carrot and never being a popular champion.
I remember when Holmes fought Cooney in Vegas, it was like Cooney was the Champion, they even introduced him last like they would the champion. I heard the crowd in Vegas was really racist, the great white hope thing.

Holmes really needed big George to stick around, the early retirement of Foreman prevented an inevitable match up that most certainly would've occurred sometime in 1978/79? Foreman would've only turned 30 in 1979 and these days that makes you a pup! A win over big George would've solidified Holmes reputation that was tarnished by his win over the hapless Ali. The Ali fight wasn't his fault, the fight shouldn't have happened, but he appears to get the blame. Holmes had one of the best jabs in Heavyweight history and the lumbering Lewis would've have had a face full of it from Holmes in his prime. Holmes had problems with the difficult Norton and the difficult Spinks. His early 1980's defences were against moderate opposition and this clouds people's judgement of him. Larry just needs to sit down relax and know in his own heart he was a great champion.

... and nothing more can really be said about it unless you want to make more out of it than need be.

But, I wish to make a little more of it than need be: I'd say that Larry wasn't mentally pushed as a champion in any of his fights. He KNEW he was fighting a hapless Ali and he FELT as if he could brutalize a smaller Spinks.

Holmes knew that none of his opponents post Norton would give him any trouble. Not even a Cooney. In fact, the only fight we saw Larry souped up for a fight to win it like he meant it was against Norton- and perhaps a little bit in the second Spinks fight.

But, unlike Ali, Holmes never had moment after moment where he was tested as a champion to the extent that it was dangerous- Ali had Liston, TWICE, Frazier, THRICE, Jerry Quarry (dangerous white hope that in todays alphabet soup of organizations would have AT LEAST be WBO Champ) TWICE, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Ellis... these guys meant business, and the list goes on and one!!!

Even if we look back to the Norton fight wasn't dangerous for him leading up to it for him to think that this is a do or die and this guy can do away with me- but it was an important fight for Holmes.

The media AND Holmes too, because he was so arrogant and the media was kind of shitty for him, didn't make him a good enough foe regardless if the guy was a tomato can or not. The best foil he EVER had leading up to a fight was Cooney- and he even cussed at that rather than thank Cooney for making the fight.

Holmes was dumb as a box of rocks, but man could ge punish you with that left jab and follow it up with stiff right hands!

[ykdadamaja]

Plus, the reason why Holmes was robbed in Spinks 2 was becasue he robbed Carl the Truth Williams... he came in lazy for that fight and LOST. The judges gave him a fight!

[Mars_ax]

Holmes was a bit of a whiner, but some of it was understandable, he was always in Ali's shadow and never really got the respect he deserved. Part of that however had to do with Larry having the charisma of a carrot and never being a popular champion.
I remember when Holmes fought Cooney in Vegas, it was like Cooney was the Champion, they even introduced him last like they would the champion. I heard the crowd in Vegas was really racist, the great white hope thing.

Holmes really needed big George to stick around, the early retirement of Foreman prevented an inevitable match up that most certainly would've occurred sometime in 1978/79? Foreman would've only turned 30 in 1979 and these days that makes you a pup! A win over big George would've solidified Holmes reputation that was tarnished by his win over the hapless Ali. The Ali fight wasn't his fault, the fight shouldn't have happened, but he appears to get the blame. Holmes had one of the best jabs in Heavyweight history and the lumbering Lewis would've have had a face full of it from Holmes in his prime. Holmes had problems with the difficult Norton and the difficult Spinks. His early 1980's defences were against moderate opposition and this clouds people's judgement of him. Larry just needs to sit down relax and know in his own heart he was a great champion.

And thank his lucky stars that he even had the opportunity to become HW champion and become as wealthy as he is.
I've seen some recent interviews with Holmes, and he doesn't seem all that bitter about anything, and he'll still tell you how great he is/was.

[IamInuit]

Holmes was a great HW champ, he was unlucky to have fought at a time just after the golden era of the 60's and 70's. I rank him a top 10 Heavyweight champ, (about 9th or 10th) but he does himself no favours by his continual whining and bitterness. He was lucky to beat Norton and how he survived that right hand knockdown of Shavers is anybody's guess. ( i give him due credit for that one alone) At the end of the day he beat everyone they put in front of him and that's all you can do, Spinks was his nemesis, styles make make fights and Spinks was just too awkward for him. In comparison he beats Lewis and Wlad any night of the week. Larry should just stop his bleating and take his career as it was, it was a great one.

Please... Lewis stomps him a new mud hole. Larry Holmes never faced anyone even near Lewis.