Tyson Vs Ali. I know it's been beat to death, but I need help

[IamInuit]

I've been writing a piece lately on Tyson vs Ali. I know it's been discussed so much amongst boxing fans that it's probably more annoying now than fun, but I think I really got something here. I've google searched the topic and not one out of hundreds of posts have taken the angle I'm working. I just need a few opinions here first. If you can spare a minute and answer some of these I would greatly appreciate it. thanks


What do you consider Tyson's best performance in the ring?
What do you consider Ali's best performance in the ring?
Do you think Tyson could have beat Sonny Liston?
Which Tyson opponent do you think would have given Ali the most trouble, or possibly even beat him?

I know there was more I wanted to ask, but of course I'm drawing a blank now.

Each to their own but for me its the second fight with Razor.

For Ali its a toss up. The first fight with Frazier is a stand out even though he lost. He was coming off close to a 3 1/2 yr forced retirement and it was his third fight in just over 4 months. The other is the Lyle fight. Ali was down on the cards going into the 11th round and put it all together and finished him.

I do think Tyson gets to Liston and stops him.

I think Razor and Lennox give Ali the most issues.

As far as a fight between the two goes, I used to almost auto default to picking Ali but as the years go by and one revisits the record and watches them both through their prime I really believe its a pickum fight. All the things Ali was susceptible to Tyson possessed. His hooks were sharper, shorter, faster and will much more power then Frazier. Best head movement of any hev I have ever seen. Odd considering he barely had a neck. Those attributes along with above average footwork made Mike also a master at getting underneath the jab. And lets be honest here Ali's was sloppy at times and he was an open glove flicker. Great range finder for plodders but...

[Beanflicker]

As far as a fight between the two goes, I used to almost auto default to picking Ali but as the years go by and one revisits the record and watches them both through their prime I really believe its a pickum fight. All the things Ali was susceptible to Tyson possessed. His hooks were sharper, shorter, faster and will much more power then Frazier. Best head movement of any hev I have ever seen. Odd considering he barely had a neck. Those attributes along with above average footwork made Mike also a master at getting underneath the jab. And lets be honest here Ali's was sloppy at times and he was an open glove flicker. Great range finder for plodders but...

Agreed, for years I picked Ali just because he was Ali, but prime Tyson is a tough test for any HW that ever lived. Ali never fought anyone with anything close to the combination of brute strength, explosive speed and defensive tactics that Tyson had.

When people say it's a cakewalk for Ali, or that Ali would actually KO Tyson, I just gotta shake my head.

[JuGGERNAUT666]

Well Tyson was done as far as peak not when cus was out of the pictyure but Rooney...he hired a bunch of idiots and slacked off his training...Watch the Bruno fight immediately after he fires Rooney and he looks awful despite still looking better than any HW at that time...The douglas fight not only showed how tough Tyson was it showed you really have to hit him when hes tired to finish him,Douglas 6'4 240 will hurt you.Tyson never trained remotely maybe 2 weeks for that fight...Ali has no punching power and wouldn't be able to keep Tyson off him...Tyson supreme power in both hands and a left hook from hell which was alis weakness,so do the math here....Also anyone who says Ali had faster hands are watching to many Ali fight clips.Ali did have faster feet but Tyson was a master at cutting off the ring and with his defense and counter punching skills this is almost an un fair fight ...I'll take Tysons 88% K.O ratio with guys 220 vs Alis 30% K.o ratio with guys averaging 210 any day....To end this silly debate Frazier is 1 and 2 against guys over 215..thats 3 fights against legit heavyweights and Frazier gave him hell :rolleyes?

[JuGGERNAUT666]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

[El Kabong]

The Tyson nuts are back

Ali fought and smashed 4 Tyson-esque fighters: Patterson, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. Patterson used Tyson's style, Foreman & Liston had Tyson's killer instinct and punching power, and Frazier had Tyson's determination.

Tyson was NEVER unbeatable the perception was there but that ain't the truth.

[Beanflicker]

The Tyson nuts are back

Ali fought and smashed 4 Tyson-esque fighters: Patterson, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. Patterson used Tyson's style, Foreman & Liston had Tyson's killer instinct and punching power, and Frazier had Tyson's determination.

Tyson was NEVER unbeatable the perception was there but that ain't the truth.

You can't compare Tyson to Patterson, Liston, Frazier and Foreman. To say that any of these guys are "Tyson-esque" is just insane.

Patterson had the similar style and hand speed but that's where the comparison ends.

Frazier was inferior to Tyson in every conceivable way (other than maybe heart).

Liston and Foreman were Tyson-esque? Maybe in the sense that they punched hard, were black and looked scary... that's about where the similarities end.

[Master]

I love the fact that El Kabong is sending Ali, I think he is saying Liston and Foreman were scary and intimidating but Ali was never affected by that.

[ICB]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.

Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.

Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.

Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.

[jahmez]

I've heard prime Tyson beats everyone too many times to count - but when exactly was his prime and who did he beat during it? To many "what ifs" and "buts" with Tyson. On the other hand, Ali proved himself time after time. Too many times its hypothetical with Mike: If Cus didn't die, if Mike didn't go to jail, if Mike didn't touch drugs, etc... the fact is these things happened and we know how he reacted. Not taking anything away from him though, he is a legend of the game and boxing personified in the same way as Ali but all this talk of him cutting down Ali with ten clean body punches is ridiculous. How many rounds did Foreman unleash on Ali's wanting body? The fact that he punched himself out is testament to just how much punishment Ali could take not a factor that should be used to quickly discredit his victory. The whole numbers game with the weights does have an impact but it hardly tells the whole story. Have you already forgotten how Manny was annihilating guys like Clottey and Margarito but then got KTFO against a so called blown up featherweight? Mike himself said his whole style was built around ending fights in the early rounds because he had problems with his lungs since he was a kid. I can't see early Ali getting trapped in corners anytime during the early rounds. A later Ali yes but by then he had worked out how to tie up his opponents, disrupt power shots with his hands plus he had developed a high level of underrated strength. Dozens of guys had the upper hand against Ali in regards to power but I can't remember anyone simply out muscling him. Ali would have had his biggest problems against guys like Lewis and the Klits - behemoths where he wouldn't have the distinct height and reach advantage who would cut down the ring due to the sheer length of their strides behind ramrod jabs that would be thrown when he tried to throw his own flickers.

[JuGGERNAUT666]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.

Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.

Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.

Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.

You don't know what your talking about prime is when your at your peak not age.That pretty much crushes you opinions,they are opinion because the fact is priome is not an age its a time period.Tyson looked sharp in Ruddock fights shows what a prime Tyson was capable of nothing more nothing less.

[jahmez]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.

Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.

Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.

Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.

You don't know what your talking about prime is when your at your peak not age.That pretty much crushes you opinions,they are opinion because the fact is priome is not an age its a time period.Tyson looked sharp in Ruddock fights shows what a prime Tyson was capable of nothing more nothing less.

The only legendary fighter Tyson beat was way out of prime regarding age and time period.

[ICB]

Tysons best performance was against Holmes..despite his 38 years of age,he showed how easily he was starting to slip jabs and holmes had the best in boxing history he was hard to hit countered perfectly and when larry pissed him off after the 3rd round..Tyson decided to end it in the 4th...Holmes was also never knocked out before that.
Its hard to pin point alis best..tthe liston fights were shady he fought Cleveland Williams 6 months after he was shot and never fully recovered and Foreman really punched himself out and made Ali not rreally work at all knowing foreman would gas out ?Im not going to include Frazier because Ali knew he would win if it went past 12..Fraziers K.o record against 215 plus guys is non existant?I would say Liston the first fight assuming it was real?
Tyson would utterly destroy liston in evry category from skill to chin in what world would Liston win this fight?He was beating guys set up by the mob who weighed 185/190 pounds with bad records...Floyd Patterson was great.....for 185 pounds?Floyd was also down 17 times in his career not to hard to beat for 220 pound liston.Tyson beat bigger guys than liston and beat them easy.
Most top guys Tyson fought would give ali trouble....lets say for argument sake ali beats them all,so what?No one came close to beating prime Tyson 1985/1988...in the end its how he beat them,ali struggled with far less level guys than Tyson did which gives Tyson credibility over Ali.Tyson out of his prime beat 6'3 245 pound Bruno and 6'3 235 pound Ruddock 2 guys that would give ali trouble,especially Ruddock,he had a left hook with more power and range than Fraziers.After those guys Tyson was out/out of his prime and put on to much uneccessary muscle which slowed him down,he became irrelevant by the holyfield fight.

James Tillis gave a prime Mike Tyson problems, winning 4 rounds out of 10. And was unlucky to get knocked down in the 4th round, a round he was clearly winning because he lunged in stupidly and got caught off balance.

Tillis had some comparison's with Ali the footwork and being able to tie up Tyson, which was one of Tyson's biggest weaknesses. I think that fight pretty much laid the blue print on how to beat Tyson.

Tyson in the Ruddock fight was not out of his prime, i love how people make excuses for Tyson. Because he struggled somewhat in both Ruddock fights, just because he lost to Douglas because he came in unprepared doesn't mean his prime is over forever.

Plenty of fighters have comeback from losses and looked as good as ever, Tyson looked sharp in both Ruddock fights. Its only because Ruddock was as tough as hell that he survived with Tyson because he did have broken ribs and a broken jaw.

You don't know what your talking about prime is when your at your peak not age.That pretty much crushes you opinions,they are opinion because the fact is priome is not an age its a time period.Tyson looked sharp in Ruddock fights shows what a prime Tyson was capable of nothing more nothing less.

I know age has nothing to do with prime, but Tyson was still in his prime before he went to prison. He just come in unprepared vs Douglas that doesn't mean he's past his prime, that means he just underestimated his opponent which is a difference.

Tyson after the Douglas fight was very good vs Stewart, Tillman, Ruddock x2. Just because Ruddock gave him some problems doesn't mean Tyson was past his prime, its just as i said Ruddock is a tough SOB the Tyson fights ruined him. Just look at the body shots from Tyson in the 1st Ruddock fight and tell me he looked past his prime.

[X]

I am a big fan of both these guys as boxers.

I think Ali's best performance was against Cleveland Williams. Granted, the 'Big Cat' was ever-so-slightly on the slide, but he was a big, fast experienced fighter with chilling power. Ali just toyed with him for a few rounds and then put him away in devastating fashion. That was one of his last fights before he was banned from the ring, so it the best chance we will have of seeing a true peak Ali.

I will disagree with those persons who have picked Spinks as Tyson's best performance. It was pretty damn good but (actually) it was just a blowout. I will, controversially pick his fight with Tyrell Biggs. let's not forget Biggs was an Olympic gold medallist with a great amateur career behind him. We also now hear that Tyson was too small to compete with today's giants, but Biggs was not only a very slick boxer, he was also huge. Tyson outboxed him, outworked him and just beat him up over several hugely punishing rounds.

Your Liston question is really interesting. On paper, Tyson should win. But I wonder. Liston was a real life seriously scary sonuvabitch, deep down I wonder what would have happened when Tyson realised that he was not going to intimidate this big mob-controlled, strike braking, convict.

Who did Tyson fight that would trouble Ali: Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

Who did Ali fight who would have troubled Tyson: Young George Forman, prime Larry Holmes (who was a better version of Buster Douglas), Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier (if Joe's slow starts allowed him to get past round 5)

[jahmez]

I hear alot of people say that Tyson was done after Cus died... yet Mike went on to win his first heavyweight title and unite the rest after Cus' death. I also hear alot of people say that prison time killed Tyson's prime yet he lost the biggest upset in history before he went to prison. After his exile from boxing Tyson went on to lose to the two best heavyweights of his era. It took him 21 months after being released from prison to face Holyfield (who was 34 with 3 losses, the most recent being to Bowe a year prior) for the first time which he would go on to lose by TKO. We all know what happened in the second fight. After his exile from boxing Ali took only 8 months to fight Frazier (who was 27 and undefeated) which he would lose by UD. We all know what happened in the rematches and we all know who else Ali went on to beat. I think Ali would have a much harder time against Lewis. He was built for Tyson: incredible chin/ability to take bodypunchers & survive then recover from overall beatings, constant stamina, deep sense of range, historic handspeed. The most important though was the fact that he wouldn't be intimidated. Pre-fight he would have seriously fucked with Mike as well. I see Mike losing it out of, then in the ring. It wouldn't stop at the conferences either, Ali would be talking to him all night during the fight and that underlying sense of doubt would pop up into Mike's mind. To me the guys who beat Tyson did so because they believed they could. At 15 Mike needed Cus to constantly compliment him just to build his confidence while Ali was already proclaiming himself the greatest.

[Vendettos]

Anybody that thinks Tyson had any trouble with Ali is deluded.

Tyson stops Ali inside 5. No problems.

Look at the guys he fought, Liston and Frazier both looked half Tysons weight, plus Tyson hits Ali with body shots allllll night.

10 clean body shots has Ali put in a stretcher.

I'm sorry but nobody would have beaten prime Tyson, not Marciano, not louis, not Johnson and certainly not Ali.