Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

[El Kabong]

Mike Tyson almost gets the Ike Ibeabuchi treatment from his supporters. There's constant "If only Tyson would have ______", "Tyson was negatively affected by ______", "Tyson should have _____".......all fighters great and poor deal with those kinds of things and true champions find a way to survive the adversity. People ignore the weaknesses of his style, they just choose not to see it...yes he was a great boxer but he was never unbeatable, no one is.

Mike Tyson was a great heavyweight, is he top 10...maybe, if not he's very close to it. I respect his skill and all he achieved but I never view him as this unbeatable indestructible God of a fighter...he's just a man always has been....where are the accolades for guys like Joe Louis who suffered a much more tormented time in the spotlight but successfully defended his title 25 times in a row or a guy like Rocky Marciano who retired undefeated?

[bradlee180]

Let's clear up the Cus D'Amato thing too where people say Tyson would've gone further if only Cus didn't die...

19 year old Mike Tyson had been a professional for only 8 months when Cus D'Amato died in Nov 1985.
At the time of Cus' death, Tyson was still fightin' no-hopers and never-wases with not a single ranked fighter on his entire 11 fight resume.

Tyson won a version of the title in Nov 1986, but many point to the 1988 Spinks fight as Tyson's peak when he won the LINEAL title.
1988 is a long ways from Cus' death in 1985 in fighter years and development.


The first time I ever saw Mike Tyson was on tv the month AFTER Cus died, Dec 1985, the Sam Scaff fight, and Tyson looked amazing.
Yeah, when Tyson the contender was just getting known, the old man had already passed by then. Tyson looked better AFTER Cus was gone, and against better competition too.

[Dark Lord Al]

Tyson was good , not great

[Beanflicker]

Why not great? Youngest HW champ, champ for 4 years, most famous HW outside of Ali, world class skill, world class power and speed, solid chin... if Tyson wasn't a great HW, who was a great HW besides Ali?

[IamInuit]

So since this is a debate just how would Tyson do against the champs of the past and their competition?


Starting around 1906: Left out the likes of Corbett, Fitzy, Jeffries and Sullivan.

Call it catharsis. Been seeing these threads since the internet was invented.

Tommy Burns. Tyson destroys him and anybody he beat legitimately.

Jack Johnson. With the exception of Jeanette, Langford and Mcvea who would pose problems for Mike I think he waxes everyone on Johnson’s ledger and beats Jack himself.

Dempsey and Willard. Tyson beats the piss out of both of them and anyone on both of their charts.

Tunney. He never defended once he won it but head to head I just don’t see him keeping Mike off him and with or without the neutral corner rule I think he leaves the ring on his back.

Schmeling. Tyson beats him anyone he did with the exception of Louis and if people are honest with themselves there is a chance he gets to Louis also.

Sharkey. Tyson slaughters him beats all he did.

Carnera. Ditto

Baer. Tyson v Max would have been fun to watch. Tyson beats everybody he ever fought.

Braddock. Tyson again.

Louis. I would tend to lean with Louis and I think a prime Walcott would be tough on Tyson. I think a prime Ezzard could beat Tyson. Tyson beats up everyone else on Joe’s hit list.

Charles. See above and I think guys like Johnson and Satterfield would have been good scraps with Mike. Can’t discount some of those Murderers Row guys with anyone really although they all may have been too small in their prime.

Jersey Joe. Essentially covered.

Marciano. The Rock deserves his respect but he would not last long with Tyson nor would anyone he fought when he fought them. He never fought any of the guys already mentioned in their prime or even close to it.

Floyd Patterson. He gets blasted out by Tyson and in Liston like fashion. Speaking of Sonny that is a hell of a fight. They could easily split a couple. Laugh if you will but I think Chuvalo’s durability troubles Mike but Tyson beats everyone else Floyd did.

Johansson. Tyson rubs him out along with everyone he fought.

Liston. Hell of a fight between the two but once again nobody he beat bothers Mike. Williams gives him a go but that’s about it

Terrell. Tyson beats him and anyone he beat except one that he lost to.

Ali. Here is where Tyson runs into some trouble. I’ll leave out those already mentioned.
Frazier was my favourite hev but I don’t think he hangs with Tyson. Mike was faster, had better feet and head movement and concussive power from both sides. Hell of a fight but I think Mike prevails. Norton's crab style may have given issues to the likes of Ali and Holmes but it simply does not work with Tyson. It’s a 50/50 fight

Foreman. Frazier's fight simply does not reflect how a Tyson fight pans out. Nobody really got to Foreman prior to Ron Lyle. Tyson gets to him and once he decks Foreman his finishing kick would finish the job. Speaking of Lyle imo he has a much better chance at Tyson then Foreman despite being beaten by him. That’s another 50/50 fight. I think Jimmy Young has the goods to beat Tyson. Not much hope for Earnie I’m afraid and Leon might lose his life. I think Mike at his best beats any version of Holmes. I believe a prime Ali beats Mike but it’s not a walk in the park.

Holmes. Anyone Holmes beat Mike beats with perhaps a few exceptions. I think a more experienced Witherspoon gives Tyson some issues and a prime Mercer. We all know that Holyfield beat Mike but I don’t think he beats the late eighties version or its certainly not clear that he would.

The 80’s and 90’s are pretty self explanatory since he was in them and the only two up to say 1999 that beat a prime Tyson are most likely Lennox and Vitali. It’s hard to know what happened for sure to Mike on that fateful night in Tokyo but to his credit Douglas fought a perfect fight and probably could not have done it twice given how he looked against Holyfield. Bowe probably would have given him a good scrap. Moorer would be in a coma.

From 2000 on I again do not see anyone other then Lewis or Vitali that beat a prime Mike including all the belt holders and anyone they fought. If Sanders was serious he may have had a chance but Mike cruises through.

Wlad. The Wlad of today might have a shot but nobody on his list does.


My conclusion: This is just my opinion based on the whole picture. I never even liked Tyson and kept going out of my way to see his fights hoping he would lose. As much as Leonard stopping Hearns in the 14th was one of my worst nights, seeing Tyson on all fours reaching for his mouth piece was a highlight. My personal feelings are simply not relevant.

Tyson is an ATG and 1st ballot hall of famer.
Tyson is a Top 10 ATG heavyweight.
Tyson is arguably a Top 5 ATG heavyweight.

[El Kabong]

Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.

Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.

But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that

[Beanflicker]

Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.

I say Tyson kills Louis. Inside of 3 rounds.

[Beanflicker]

Mike Tyson destroys anyone from 1960 downward. Not necessarily because he was a better fighter than some of these guys, but he had the benefit of more modern sport science and "nutrition" (take that to mean what you want). Athletically, we've come a long way since Joe Louis' day.

[IamInuit]

Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.

Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.

But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that

Yeah I know he did but he never really went on a run. I also know that Baer fought Louis. I was going at first in the order that fighters became belt holders or recognized as such so I mixed in two angles or I would have went over the character limit. I don't think its far fetched to suggest that Tyson beats Louis. Joe had a shaky chin and Mike would not have to look for him. Its not like Louis would be using the shoot and run tactic. The point was to show that Tyson love him or hate him deserves to be in the conversation when talking about the greatest heavyweights of all time.

[El Kabong]

Gene Tunney defended his heavyweight title 2 times, the rematch vs Dempsey and a fight vs Tom Heeney.

Max Baer fought Joe Louis, and no way no how does Tyson beat Louis. Joe was too powerful and too precise with his punches.

But that was a very long list so good on you for posting that

Yeah I know he did but he never really went on a run. I also know that Baer fought Louis. I was going at first in the order that fighters became belt holders or recognized as such so I mixed in two angles or I would have went over the character limit. I don't think its far fetched to suggest that Tyson beats Louis. Joe had a shaky chin and Mike would not have to look for him. Its not like Louis would be using the shoot and run tactic. The point was to show that Tyson love him or hate him deserves to be in the conversation when talking about the greatest heavyweights of all time.

I don't think Joe's chin was shaky so much as he could get knocked off balance every so often...I mean 72 total fights and only 2 stoppage losses, one coming when he was really long in the tooth vs one of the greatest pound for pound punchers in the history of the game....come on now.

Mike Tyson IS great, I never denied it...I just have a tough time fitting him securely in the top 10, but he's certainly in the neighborhood.

So yes....about Tyson vs Bowe?

[Boxer4life]

So since this is a debate just how would Tyson do against the champs of the past and their competition?


Starting around 1906: Left out the likes of Corbett, Fitzy, Jeffries and Sullivan.

Call it catharsis. Been seeing these threads since the internet was invented.

Tommy Burns. Tyson destroys him and anybody he beat legitimately.

Jack Johnson. With the exception of Jeanette, Langford and Mcvea who would pose problems for Mike I think he waxes everyone on Johnson’s ledger and beats Jack himself.

Dempsey and Willard. Tyson beats the piss out of both of them and anyone on both of their charts.

Tunney. He never defended once he won it but head to head I just don’t see him keeping Mike off him and with or without the neutral corner rule I think he leaves the ring on his back.

Schmeling. Tyson beats him anyone he did with the exception of Louis and if people are honest with themselves there is a chance he gets to Louis also.

Sharkey. Tyson slaughters him beats all he did.

Carnera. Ditto

Baer. Tyson v Max would have been fun to watch. Tyson beats everybody he ever fought.

Braddock. Tyson again.

Louis. I would tend to lean with Louis and I think a prime Walcott would be tough on Tyson. I think a prime Ezzard could beat Tyson. Tyson beats up everyone else on Joe’s hit list.

Charles. See above and I think guys like Johnson and Satterfield would have been good scraps with Mike. Can’t discount some of those Murderers Row guys with anyone really although they all may have been too small in their prime.

Jersey Joe. Essentially covered.

Marciano. The Rock deserves his respect but he would not last long with Tyson nor would anyone he fought when he fought them. He never fought any of the guys already mentioned in their prime or even close to it.

Floyd Patterson. He gets blasted out by Tyson and in Liston like fashion. Speaking of Sonny that is a hell of a fight. They could easily split a couple. Laugh if you will but I think Chuvalo’s durability troubles Mike but Tyson beats everyone else Floyd did.

Johansson. Tyson rubs him out along with everyone he fought.

Liston. Hell of a fight between the two but once again nobody he beat bothers Mike. Williams gives him a go but that’s about it

Terrell. Tyson beats him and anyone he beat except one that he lost to.

Ali. Here is where Tyson runs into some trouble. I’ll leave out those already mentioned.
Frazier was my favourite hev but I don’t think he hangs with Tyson. Mike was faster, had better feet and head movement and concussive power from both sides. Hell of a fight but I think Mike prevails. Norton's crab style may have given issues to the likes of Ali and Holmes but it simply does not work with Tyson. It’s a 50/50 fight

Foreman. Frazier's fight simply does not reflect how a Tyson fight pans out. Nobody really got to Foreman prior to Ron Lyle. Tyson gets to him and once he decks Foreman his finishing kick would finish the job. Speaking of Lyle imo he has a much better chance at Tyson then Foreman despite being beaten by him. That’s another 50/50 fight. I think Jimmy Young has the goods to beat Tyson. Not much hope for Earnie I’m afraid and Leon might lose his life. I think Mike at his best beats any version of Holmes. I believe a prime Ali beats Mike but it’s not a walk in the park.

Holmes. Anyone Holmes beat Mike beats with perhaps a few exceptions. I think a more experienced Witherspoon gives Tyson some issues and a prime Mercer. We all know that Holyfield beat Mike but I don’t think he beats the late eighties version or its certainly not clear that he would.

The 80’s and 90’s are pretty self explanatory since he was in them and the only two up to say 1999 that beat a prime Tyson are most likely Lennox and Vitali. It’s hard to know what happened for sure to Mike on that fateful night in Tokyo but to his credit Douglas fought a perfect fight and probably could not have done it twice given how he looked against Holyfield. Bowe probably would have given him a good scrap. Moorer would be in a coma.

From 2000 on I again do not see anyone other then Lewis or Vitali that beat a prime Mike including all the belt holders and anyone they fought. If Sanders was serious he may have had a chance but Mike cruises through.

Wlad. The Wlad of today might have a shot but nobody on his list does.


My conclusion: This is just my opinion based on the whole picture. I never even liked Tyson and kept going out of my way to see his fights hoping he would lose. As much as Leonard stopping Hearns in the 14th was one of my worst nights, seeing Tyson on all fours reaching for his mouth piece was a highlight. My personal feelings are simply not relevant.

Tyson is an ATG and 1st ballot hall of famer.
Tyson is a Top 10 ATG heavyweight.
Tyson is arguably a Top 5 ATG heavyweight.

that about sums it up

[Mr140]

I think the people overrating him do it far worse then the people underrating him. I mean you guys who are his fans say he it like number 1 heavyweight and only Ali beats him bit overboard. People underatting him say he is just out side the top ten because he lost all his big fights which is some what true and has facts to it because it happened. I think he is in the lower part of the ten he had good run which was short but got win over a older Larry who still did good things. The thing holds him back is he lost to Douglas while in his prime but took him lightly no excuse still lost, then lost his big fights with a way older Holyfeild with heart problems and Lewis who was also older then him. Then he went on to lose to cans before quitting on the ground which at that point i dont blame him the guy i forget who but he was not on the level.

[denilson200]

So since this is a debate just how would Tyson do against the champs of the past and their competition?


Starting around 1906: Left out the likes of Corbett, Fitzy, Jeffries and Sullivan.

Call it catharsis. Been seeing these threads since the internet was invented.

Tommy Burns. Tyson destroys him and anybody he beat legitimately.

Jack Johnson. With the exception of Jeanette, Langford and Mcvea who would pose problems for Mike I think he waxes everyone on Johnson’s ledger and beats Jack himself.

Dempsey and Willard. Tyson beats the piss out of both of them and anyone on both of their charts.

Tunney. He never defended once he won it but head to head I just don’t see him keeping Mike off him and with or without the neutral corner rule I think he leaves the ring on his back.

Schmeling. Tyson beats him anyone he did with the exception of Louis and if people are honest with themselves there is a chance he gets to Louis also.

Sharkey. Tyson slaughters him beats all he did.

Carnera. Ditto

Baer. Tyson v Max would have been fun to watch. Tyson beats everybody he ever fought.

Braddock. Tyson again.

Louis. I would tend to lean with Louis and I think a prime Walcott would be tough on Tyson. I think a prime Ezzard could beat Tyson. Tyson beats up everyone else on Joe’s hit list.

Charles. See above and I think guys like Johnson and Satterfield would have been good scraps with Mike. Can’t discount some of those Murderers Row guys with anyone really although they all may have been too small in their prime.

Jersey Joe. Essentially covered.

Marciano. The Rock deserves his respect but he would not last long with Tyson nor would anyone he fought when he fought them. He never fought any of the guys already mentioned in their prime or even close to it.

Floyd Patterson. He gets blasted out by Tyson and in Liston like fashion. Speaking of Sonny that is a hell of a fight. They could easily split a couple. Laugh if you will but I think Chuvalo’s durability troubles Mike but Tyson beats everyone else Floyd did.

Johansson. Tyson rubs him out along with everyone he fought.

Liston. Hell of a fight between the two but once again nobody he beat bothers Mike. Williams gives him a go but that’s about it

Terrell. Tyson beats him and anyone he beat except one that he lost to.

Ali. Here is where Tyson runs into some trouble. I’ll leave out those already mentioned.
Frazier was my favourite hev but I don’t think he hangs with Tyson. Mike was faster, had better feet and head movement and concussive power from both sides. Hell of a fight but I think Mike prevails. Norton's crab style may have given issues to the likes of Ali and Holmes but it simply does not work with Tyson. It’s a 50/50 fight

Foreman. Frazier's fight simply does not reflect how a Tyson fight pans out. Nobody really got to Foreman prior to Ron Lyle. Tyson gets to him and once he decks Foreman his finishing kick would finish the job. Speaking of Lyle imo he has a much better chance at Tyson then Foreman despite being beaten by him. That’s another 50/50 fight. I think Jimmy Young has the goods to beat Tyson. Not much hope for Earnie I’m afraid and Leon might lose his life. I think Mike at his best beats any version of Holmes. I believe a prime Ali beats Mike but it’s not a walk in the park.

Holmes. Anyone Holmes beat Mike beats with perhaps a few exceptions. I think a more experienced Witherspoon gives Tyson some issues and a prime Mercer. We all know that Holyfield beat Mike but I don’t think he beats the late eighties version or its certainly not clear that he would.

The 80’s and 90’s are pretty self explanatory since he was in them and the only two up to say 1999 that beat a prime Tyson are most likely Lennox and Vitali. It’s hard to know what happened for sure to Mike on that fateful night in Tokyo but to his credit Douglas fought a perfect fight and probably could not have done it twice given how he looked against Holyfield. Bowe probably would have given him a good scrap. Moorer would be in a coma.

From 2000 on I again do not see anyone other then Lewis or Vitali that beat a prime Mike including all the belt holders and anyone they fought. If Sanders was serious he may have had a chance but Mike cruises through.

Wlad. The Wlad of today might have a shot but nobody on his list does.


My conclusion: This is just my opinion based on the whole picture. I never even liked Tyson and kept going out of my way to see his fights hoping he would lose. As much as Leonard stopping Hearns in the 14th was one of my worst nights, seeing Tyson on all fours reaching for his mouth piece was a highlight. My personal feelings are simply not relevant.

Tyson is an ATG and 1st ballot hall of famer.
Tyson is a Top 10 ATG heavyweight.
Tyson is arguably a Top 5 ATG heavyweight.

Good post.

I agree that the only person I see being able to beat a prime Tyson was Ali in his prime.

The prime Ali for me, was his 1966 Cleveland Williams fight. The prime Tyson was when he first won his title aganist Berbick

Who would win ?

As I say for me, Ali.

Not so much because Ali would have outboxed and outdanced him. More that Ali would have took all the punishment Tyson could dish out. Some past great heavyweaights may have been able to hang on for lopsided UD for Tyson but I just see Ali being able to keep popping and slashing and sticking and coming back for more and more and taking Tysons shots and either stopping him late or winning a UD.

Now Ali would have to had take an INCREDIBLE amount punishment and we would probably want a Steve Smoger referee who did'nt stop fights easily because I see Ali taken shots here maybe even worse than even in the Thriller in Manila and Rumble In Jungle but I see Ali prevailing in the end.

Ali had a great chin, heart and courage not to mention a fantastic boxer too, he had in built radar to escape from punches and could tie his opponent up. All in all.

Tyson is ATG. No question. That is judging him in his prime. A persons prime does not mean age wise as Tyson was still only 24 when he lost to Douglas. Prime means when he was at most focused to boxing physically and mentally when he did not have any distractions outside the ring. When he was hungry and wanted it. By Douglas Tyson got married, played around with women, spent money, Don King, Hangers on, Cars, Mansion.

He lived the lifestyle

As Mickey says in the Rocky films "The worst thing a fighter can do is get civilised"

[Master]

Even if Tyson could beat Louis, Ali or Holmes I still do not have him above them as they has longevity and consistency to be classed as true greats.

[Beanflicker]

I love how the "let's end the debate" thread ended up being 10 pages of debating.