Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

[Beanflicker]

Why not great? Youngest HW champ, champ for 4 years, most famous HW outside of Ali, world class skill, world class power and speed, solid chin... if Tyson wasn't a great HW, who was a great HW besides Ali?

[El Kabong]

Let's clear up the Cus D'Amato thing too where people say Tyson would've gone further if only Cus didn't die...

19 year old Mike Tyson had been a professional for only 8 months when Cus D'Amato died in Nov 1985.
At the time of Cus' death, Tyson was still fightin' no-hopers and never-wases with not a single ranked fighter on his entire 11 fight resume.

Tyson won a version of the title in Nov 1986, but many point to the 1988 Spinks fight as Tyson's peak when he won the LINEAL title.
1988 is a long ways from Cus' death in 1985 in fighter years and development.


The first time I ever saw Mike Tyson was on tv the month AFTER Cus died, Dec 1985, the Sam Scaff fight, and Tyson looked amazing.
Yeah, when Tyson the contender was just getting known, the old man had already passed by then. Tyson looked better AFTER Cus was gone, and against better competition too.

And then Rooney getting fired and Jim Jacobs dying are the other excuses. And of course the marriage to Robin Givens is also blamed and Don King and jail, yada yada yada....Champions get the limelight treatment some of them are negatively affected by that others aren't, it's just part of being a champion. People dying is just a part of being a human, all humans regardless of what they do go through adversity.

I think part of what gets the Tyson fans upset is that guys like Holyfield & Lewis had more lasting careers due to their style and when they turned pro (AFTER Tyson's major successes). Tyson like many heavyweights didn't have his Joe Frazier and George Foreman...he had guys who were good but not great Frank Bruno, Donovan Rudduck, those guys he had closer and better fights with rather than Holyfield and Lewis, but that's my opinion. Tyson did demolish the old guard though in Holmes, Berbick, and Spinks....he tore through those guys.

[Beanflicker]

I don't think it should be looked at as an excuse for Tyson either. People say "oh what if what if". When evaluating a champ, you have to look at the WHOLE picture, and if Tyson couldn't handle himself properly without Cus, or fucked up and went to jail and got rusty, then that's on HIM and detracts from his legacy IMO.

[bradlee180]

On the subject of beating old fighters:

A prime Mike Tyson demolished a 38 year old Larry Holmes in 4 rds in 1988.
About a year-and-a-half earlier in 1986, Larry had fought the rematch with Spinks for the Title.

..and in 1992, 4 years after the Tyson fight, Larry went on to defeat a prime Merciless Ray Mercer, and also win quite a few rds against a prime Holyfield in their 12 rd Title fight. That should be considered...

[El Kabong]

One of the things that is most intriguing about Tyson is the style matchup he creates. The power punching pressure fighter style doesn't come around all that often especially with the kind of power Tyson had.

I think a Brownsville, NYC showdown of 'Iron' Mike Tyson vs Riddick 'Big Daddy' Bowe would have been EPIC. How would you guys see that fight unfolding? I'll give you 3 scenarios 2 hypothetical and 1 when the fight could have actually happened.

1. Prime vs Prime

2. 1992 right after Bowe beat Holyfield given the hypothetical that Tyson didn't go to prison after the Ruddock fights

3. 1996 before Bowe fought Golota and after Tyson was finally back in the swing of things in his career around the time he fought Bruno II & Seldon

[Beanflicker]

A prime Mike Tyson demolished a 38 year old Larry Holmes in 4 rds in 1988.
About a year-and-a-half earlier in 1986, Larry had fought the rematch with Spinks for the Title.

..and in 1992, 4 years after the Tyson fight, Larry went on to defeat a prime Merciless Ray Mercer, and also win quite a few rds against a prime Holyfield in their 12 rd Title fight. That should be considered...

That's a good point too. People talk like, because it wasn't exactly prime Holmes, that it was a walk in the park for anyone. At that point, Holmes had only lost the two controversial decisions to Spinks. We're talking about a world champ who had never been destroyed by anyone, even in the 14 years he fought after the Tyson fight.

Tyson was the only guy to really beat the shit out of Larry Holmes. Was it prime Holmes? Hell no. He was a good 15lbs of fat bigger than his prime, but he was still a fantastic fighter at that point.

[Master]

I still say prime Tyson beats prime Lewis and Holy field.

[imp]

I still say prime Tyson beats prime Lewis and Holy field.

Holyfield yes
Lewis if its inside 6 rounds

[Master]

I still say prime Tyson beats prime Lewis and Holy field.

Holyfield yes
Lewis if its inside 6 rounds

Even passed six, lewis was very cautious and would have stayed that way if Tyson stayed aggressive.

[nuggetdotcom]

Mike Tyson almost gets the Ike Ibeabuchi treatment from his supporters. There's constant "If only Tyson would have ______", "Tyson was negatively affected by ______", "Tyson should have _____".......all fighters great and poor deal with those kinds of things and true champions find a way to survive the adversity. People ignore the weaknesses of his style, they just choose not to see it...yes he was a great boxer but he was never unbeatable, no one is.

Mike Tyson was a great heavyweight, is he top 10...maybe, if not he's very close to it. I respect his skill and all he achieved but I never view him as this unbeatable indestructible God of a fighter...he's just a man always has been....where are the accolades for guys like Joe Louis who suffered a much more tormented time in the spotlight but successfully defended his title 25 times in a row or a guy like Rocky Marciano who retired undefeated?

Did the Rock ever have a world title fight against anyone under 40 years old? Just the luck of who's around at the time. Fighters like Ken Norton were just in the age group where they had a selection of 'greats' active at the time, for me Ken Norton beats Mike Tyson any day of the week.

[Master]

Ken Norton was destroyed by punchers- guess what Tyson was?

[nuggetdotcom]

Ken Norton was destroyed by punchers- guess what Tyson was?

Yes, a puncher against never wasers or over the hillers, punch deserted him against Evander did it? Twice? A Cruiserweight? The Real Deal? Man had no bottle, Ken Norton did, Evander did, end of.

[El Kabong]

some important things to remember about Ken Norton he had a very good jab, he was extremely strong, and he utilized the cross block defense which is something Tyson hadn't really dealt with but if Foreman could find an opening Tyson probably could.

[TitoFan]

I don't consider Tyson the best ever, but I do consider him at least top 10. The thing with Tyson was the fear factor. I don't know of any other HW in memory who instilled the pure fear in opponents that Tyson did. Maybe Foreman. And I know some opponents have gone in scared shitless against Wlad, but I don't fully understand that, given that Wlad is not the hellbent attacker Tyson was.

But Tyson was a fire hydrant of a man. Short, squat, focused on nothing but creating mayhem. Opponents were scared shitless of his flying left hooks which lifted him clear off the ground. He threw murderous punches with both hands. There was no "feeling out" process with Tyson at his peak. He came out bobbing and weaving and throwing bombs designed to decapitate a human being.

I've never seen a HW take a shameful dive like Bruce Seldon did against Tyson. He saw some missiles whizzing by, and started looking for a soft spot to land. The "punch" that knocked him out was actually the breeze from a missed shot. People at ringside must've detected a foul smell coming from Seldon's trunks.

Other guys came in with fancy robes and music. Tyson came in with a towel with a cutout for his head. No fancy trunks either... just basic black.

Ali didn't scare people like that. Neither did Lewis, Holmes, Frazier. Well... there's Liston. But Liston, like Foreman was a plodder in comparison. You could dance around a bit and delay the inevitable. Tyson was like a rabid pitbull.... practically running after you to knock your head into the seats.

Oh well..... it's too bad he self-destructed. He could've accomplished more than he actually did.

[Beanflicker]

If you think chinny, crab defense-using Ken Norton beats Mike Tyson, you are completely insane. I'd be amazed if he made it out of the 1st round. Mike Tyson is absolute poison for guys like him and Joe Frazier.

But you know who I think beats prime Tyson? This will piss off the Tyson lovers no doubt.... prime Klitschkos (yes, both of them).